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P.K. Subban Thread IX: 'Try to make this one last longer than a day' Edition

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Old
01-27-2013, 02:13 PM
  #501
SouthernHab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Holy hell, you're really having trouble comprehending simple facts.

If you sign a young player to a long term contract and he turns out to be what is projected you will be saving a lot of money.

If Subban is signed to a 2 year deal at this ridiculous low ball offer and goes out and does what we all expect he will. After this 2 years he will be going into UFA years on his next deal and will be getting paid upwards of 7 million a year with inflation and the cap rising.

7 million a year vs. 4.5-5.5 a year if signed now. HRM I WONDER WHAT WILL ALLOW FOR MORE PLAYERS IN THE FUTURE.
Gomez cap hit is still here this year.

If we buy out Kaberle next season his cap hit will still be here next year.

Its easy to play armchair GM at your computer and demand that a popular player be given a very high contract this year.

But in the real world, if you want to create a contending hockey team, you have to work the numbers.

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01-27-2013, 02:14 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No one knows with 100% certainty what Bergevin is offering.
You're tough to follow.
You make claims like PK should accept a 3.5M/y deal when it has never even been reported that this was offered.
You even chose to believe that PK was asking for the moon and insist that he's being this greedy and selfish kid because of it.
However, reputable journalists and insiders (that never make up rumors and are usually on the money) revealed some numbers. They are beneath your original thought, and so you suddenly take a step back saying nobody knows with 100% certainty. That never stopped you from making assumptions when it painted PK as this greedy kid.
You can't do it one way only.

If you don't know, then don't call PK this selfish greedy kid.
If you want to believe rumors, then believe the latest ones that are from reputable insiders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post

To your point. Price is not overpaid. He is the most valuable player on the team without question.
Can MaxPac, Price and Subban win us a Cup? No.
As the start of a core?? Sure, maybe, why not.
Of course, a team isn't constituted of 3 players, so yes, they will need other key players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
They will need support. We still need at least one more impact player for the top 6 and we still need a physical DMan (with or without Subban).

Getting those players here will require Cap management over the next couple of years.

Why blow the entire cap surplus on one player when just having that one player will not move us toward the Cup.
Sure, you manage the cap. You manage it by not giving guys like Gionta 5M for 5y.
Or not giving Gorges 4M. Or not bringing in Kaberle at 4.25M. That's how you manage cap.
Screwing up and then trying to squeeze cash out of a core key player is just dumb.

Also, our team is better with PK on it than not. So you're wrong, PK alone does move us towards the cup. And he does move us closer to it than draft picks, or cap space used on over the hill UFA agents.

I don't get your beef with PK. Seriously.

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01-27-2013, 02:15 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=6...d=nhl:topheads


"I've been training a lot … maybe too much," he continued. "It's safe to say that I'd like to get back on the ice sooner than later. But sometimes in life you go through processes that aren't the most fun. But you got to go through it."


So it sounds like he's keeping in shape, despite helping out with a bunch of charities. Good news, but not surprising knowing his work ethic.

What a cancer.

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Old
01-27-2013, 02:16 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
I don't like to insult posters personally but I am on the bring my friend. It's pretty damn nuts how you think, in fact I don't understand your logic at all. Please explain to me how you think signing PK now to a low bridge offer is going to help this team in 2 years when they're ready to compete?
Its the internet. If you feel the need to insult, go right ahead.

However, you insulting me will still not give me what I asked of you.

Do you know the dollar amount Subban started at? And do you know the dollar amount Subban is asking right now?

You are all over the Bergevin numbers that are rumored to be true.

Just asking for info.

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01-27-2013, 02:17 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
What a cancer.
Doing charities on his off time? WHAT ABOUT A REAL CHARITY LIKE ME DYING TO SEE HIM PLAY FOR THE CANADIENS?


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01-27-2013, 02:17 PM
  #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post

But in the real world, if you want to create a contending hockey team, you have to work the numbers.
Straw man arguments aside, so far signing players to a bridge contract has actually cost us more in the long run (Plekanec, Gorges, Price), so this concept is counter productive.

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01-27-2013, 02:18 PM
  #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Its the internet. If you feel the need to insult, go right ahead.

However, you insulting me will still not give me what I asked of you.

Do you know the dollar amount Subban started at? And do you know the dollar amount Subban is asking right now?
You are all over the Bergevin numbers that are rumored to be true.

Just asking for info.
Those amounts have not been made public, only the Habs' offers.

This shouldn't make any anger at Bergevin for low-balling Subban a week into the season any less justified, if that's what you're getting at.

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01-27-2013, 02:18 PM
  #508
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Yeah, nice way to take something out of context.

I was responding to Mr Hab saying Markov had a frail body.

I responded that he's one of the buffest players on the Habs. He's bigger and more buff than Subban and PK is one of the players that trains the most.

Your response was just completetly out of context.

And there's a huge difference between Lafleur and Markov shirtless. Guess you just haven't seen both.
Sorry I got you in this mess! I should have written...in last 3 years he seems to have developed an injury prone body...a delicate body...or maybe that doesn't sound good either...I understand many here want to defend/protect Markov...not sure delicate is better than ''frail'' or actually...like most NHLers...they're all in great shape (most of them) but it doesn't stop some from being frail when it comes to receiving bodychecks (Ribeiro looks frail at 160lbs, but he seems to wiggle away quite well from violent bodychecks...Ribeiro is actually a major iron-man compared to Markov even though Markov is thicker/more muscular vs Ribs, but Ribs is the iron-man among the two,etc...). And I've seen Markov in person several years ago...looked to be in good shape ...and then Bouillon walked by right after and I'd say Bouillon was built like a tank or mini-tank (5'9-max.5'10...not that tall but wide shoulders/chest...big,etc)...anyways I don't want to turn this into a man/muscle/big players-lots-of-muscles kind of post!! I just wanted to say that Markov has an injury prone body in last 3 seasons... but yes I am happy that he's healthy (4 games now)...but let's keep our fingers crossed...some may think I'm wishing an injury on him so you could hate me more, but it's the opposite...I'm just sick of him always getting injured...I'm preying he could stay healthy so Subban and him can finally dominate the PP together... knocking on wood 'cause I really want Subban to benefit from Markov and vice versa. You've all been waiting for a Markov-Subban reunion...same here. Will it ever happen? (fantasy?! I hope it will be a reality and not just for 5 or 10 games).


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 01-27-2013 at 02:27 PM.
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01-27-2013, 02:18 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Gomez cap hit is still here this year.

If we buy out Kaberle next season his cap hit will still be here next year.

Its easy to play armchair GM at your computer and demand that a popular player be given a very high contract this year.

But in the real world, if you want to create a contending hockey team, you have to work the numbers.
Wrong.

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Old
01-27-2013, 02:19 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Gomez cap hit is still here this year.

If we buy out Kaberle next season his cap hit will still be here next year.

Its easy to play armchair GM at your computer and demand that a popular player be given a very high contract this year.

But in the real world, if you want to create a contending hockey team, you have to work the numbers.
Gomez cap hit this year is irrelevant, there is space for Subban and nothing else to spend cap on this season. A trade deadline move would be prorated to like 15 games.

There are 2 compliance buy-outs awarded to each team so if they wanted to buy out Kaberle his cap hit is gone, kaput, not an issue.

NO ONE is saying to give him a ridiculous offer, especially not me. But to sit there and pretend like he's worth 2.5 million is a joke. And to believe that if he signs this low ball offer he's not going to get a massive deal afterwards is naive.

The best action would be to lock him up long term now at a reasonable cap hit. Which by the way is all he's asking for.

“We’re not trying to rob the bank here (in contract talks). We’re not reinventing anything. We’re not holding a gun to the Canadiens’ head saying, ‘Pay us this or we’re walking away.’

“We just want to be compensated for what I’m worth.

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01-27-2013, 02:19 PM
  #511
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You want to see Markov and Subban together?


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01-27-2013, 02:21 PM
  #512
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Could you guys imagine if Subban did this??



We'd have to invent a new word. Like Classlesscancerjerk. Or something along those lines.

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01-27-2013, 02:21 PM
  #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You're tough to follow.
You make claims like PK should accept a 3.5M/y deal when it has never even been reported that this was offered.
You even chose to believe that PK was asking for the moon and insist that he's being this greedy and selfish kid because of it.
However, reputable journalists and insiders (that never make up rumors and are usually on the money) revealed some numbers. They are beneath your original thought, and so you suddenly take a step back saying nobody knows with 100% certainty. That never stopped you from making assumptions when it painted PK as this greedy kid.
You can't do it one way only.

If you don't know, then don't call PK this selfish greedy kid.
If you want to believe rumors, then believe the latest ones that are from reputable insiders.



As the start of a core?? Sure, maybe, why not.
Of course, a team isn't constituted of 3 players, so yes, they will need other key players.

Sure, you manage the cap. You manage it by not giving guys like Gionta 5M for 5y.
Or not giving Gorges 4M. Or not bringing in Kaberle at 4.25M. That's how you manage cap.
Screwing up and then trying to squeeze cash out of a core key player is just dumb.

Also, our team is better with PK on it than not. So you're wrong, PK alone does move us towards the cup. And he does move us closer to it than draft picks, or cap space used on over the hill UFA agents.

I don't get your beef with PK. Seriously.
You just stated my case all along.

Gionta's salary is too high. Kaberle's is a joke. Georges is a high contract.

All of those contracts are on the books. Bergevin is looking at those numbers. They were given to him.

He can try to lock PK up with a bridge for two years while these contracts play out and end. Once these contracts are gone, PK can get his money.

Or, Bergevin can continue the ineptitude that we have seen for the last 10 years. Just write a big contract and hope for the best as we complain why we cannot get talented UFAs to sign with our low offers in Montreal.

My beef with PK is that he should understand he is a valuable cog in this team and by holding out for a high contract will hurt this team in getting additional impact players to come here because of a lack of cap space.

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Old
01-27-2013, 02:22 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Gomez cap hit this year is irrelevant, there is space for Subban and nothing else to spend cap on this season. A trade deadline move would be prorated to like 15 games.

There are 2 compliance buy-outs awarded to each team so if they wanted to buy out Kaberle his cap hit is gone, kaput, not an issue.

NO ONE is saying to give him a ridiculous offer, especially not me. But to sit there and pretend like he's worth 2.5 million is a joke. And to believe that if he signs this low ball offer he's not going to get a massive deal afterwards is naive.

The best action would be to lock him up long term now at a reasonable cap hit. Which by the way is all he's asking for.

“We’re not trying to rob the bank here (in contract talks). We’re not reinventing anything. We’re not holding a gun to the Canadiens’ head saying, ‘Pay us this or we’re walking away.’

“We just want to be compensated for what I’m worth.
I stopped reading after what I bolded.

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Old
01-27-2013, 02:23 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
We'd have to invent a new word. Like Classlesscancerjerk. Or something along those lines.
diSubbanPKointing

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01-27-2013, 02:24 PM
  #516
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His job is to field the most competitive team he can to win a cup. What do you think would earn more money(for molson) subbans rockstar status as of right now, or a cup win with gallyA getting a dozen goals post season? Cammy could do no wrong after the semi finals and halak was untradeable. Well we see where that gets you. A lot of sold sweaters and still shipped out. The habs will win way bigger by fielding a more competitive team than paying subban doughty money as was originally leaked.

Its not MBs job to refute every leak that comes out of subbans camp. If he bows to the media wishes then he will never ice a good team. Bargain and get on with it. They aren't barely talking. Both sides watching the habs to see how they do. Should we beat jersey today(not likely) without patches it will change the negotiations further.
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Again, what makes you think Subban is requesting Doughty money?!?!
Good question. Perhaps the fact that Subban specifically denied that statement?

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01-27-2013, 02:24 PM
  #517
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You want to see Markov and Subban together?

That was a great game! Also Pleks-Cole-Pacioretty as a 1st line was lethal that night!

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01-27-2013, 02:24 PM
  #518
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Charity work?

How can we possibly sign this locker-room cancer? What a disgraceful human being.

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01-27-2013, 02:25 PM
  #519
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You just stated my case all along.

Gionta's salary is too high. Kaberle's is a joke. Georges is a high contract.

All of those contracts are on the books. Bergevin is looking at those numbers. They were given to him.

He can try to lock PK up with a bridge for two years while these contracts play out and end. Once these contracts are gone, PK can get his money.

Or, Bergevin can continue the ineptitude that we have seen for the last 10 years. Just write a big contract and hope for the best as we complain why we cannot get talented UFAs to sign with our low offers in Montreal.

My beef with PK is that he should understand he is a valuable cog in this team and by holding out for a high contract will hurt this team in getting additional impact players to come here because of a lack of cap space.
Maybe we should just nullify every contract and start from scratch?

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01-27-2013, 02:26 PM
  #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Gomez cap hit is still here this year.

If we buy out Kaberle next season his cap hit will still be here next year.


Its easy to play armchair GM at your computer and demand that a popular player be given a very high contract this year.

But in the real world, if you want to create a contending hockey team, you have to work the numbers.
No it won't.

It's a compliance buyout. it doesn't count against the cap.

You might be misled and confused by Gomez's buyout which does count against our cap this season, but that's only because he wasn't supposed to be bought out until next summer, and then his cap hit won't count.

All the compliance buyouts WON'T count on the cap next year or any or any following years (depending on the length of the buyout).

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01-27-2013, 02:26 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Could you guys imagine if Subban did this??



We'd have to invent a new word. Like Classlesscancerjerk. Or something along those lines.
agreed...but because its Gorges/Prust, it's perceived differently

perception is everything

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01-27-2013, 02:28 PM
  #522
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You just stated my case all along.

Gionta's salary is too high. Kaberle's is a joke. Georges is a high contract.

All of those contracts are on the books. Bergevin is looking at those numbers. They were given to him.

He can try to lock PK up with a bridge for two years while these contracts play out and end. Once these contracts are gone, PK can get his money.

Or, Bergevin can continue the ineptitude that we have seen for the last 10 years. Just write a big contract and hope for the best as we complain why we cannot get talented UFAs to sign with our low offers in Montreal.

My beef with PK is that he should understand he is a valuable cog in this team and by holding out for a high contract will hurt this team in getting additional impact players to come here because of a lack of cap space.
Seriously, you take offense with Gorges' 3.9mil, but not Prust's 2.5? Maybe you'd have Prust play 21 minutes, and Gorges 12?

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01-27-2013, 02:28 PM
  #523
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You just stated my case all along.

Gionta's salary is too high. Kaberle's is a joke. Georges is a high contract.

All of those contracts are on the books. Bergevin is looking at those numbers. They were given to him.

He can try to lock PK up with a bridge for two years while these contracts play out and end. Once these contracts are gone, PK can get his money.

Or, Bergevin can continue the ineptitude that we have seen for the last 10 years. Just write a big contract and hope for the best as we complain why we cannot get talented UFAs to sign with our low offers in Montreal.

My beef with PK is that he should understand he is a valuable cog in this team and by holding out for a high contract will hurt this team in getting additional impact players to come here because of a lack of cap space.
You don't make any sense.

First off, only Gionta and Kaberle are coming off. Gorges is staying there, there's also MaxPac that's getting a 3M increase.
Diaz and Emelin will also be coming off their bridge deals, so, if they keep improving as they have, expect huge increases for them too.
Now you want to add PK Subban to that list of increases???

You realize that the previous organization you're talking about are the ones that were for the bridge deals right?? They gave bridge deals to everybody. That's why guys like Gorges and Price got huge increases.
PK Subban is actually trying to help us, give him a long term deal now, at 4-4.5M if you can, so that in 2 years, you won't have to re-sign him to that 6-7M deal.

You say you don't want to repeat the same mistakes but what you're suggesting leads us exactly to where we've been in the past few years. Can't you see that?

You're only thinking in the short term. You're thinking about saving money on 2 years as opposed to possibly 6-8years.

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01-27-2013, 02:29 PM
  #524
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Georges is a high contract.
I don't mean to harp on spelling, but the proper spelling of his last name is right on the back of his sweater. I mean... did you even try looking up his contract before you wrote that? Because maybe you would have found out he:

- Makes less than John Michael Liles
- Less than Eric Brewer
- Same cap hit as Tim Gleason
- A tad more than Kyle Quincey
- Same cap hit as Kuba
- Same cap hit but $4M less than Erhoff

And I'd say Gorges is a better defender than all of them. Maybe look around the league before you decide a player is overpaid?

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01-27-2013, 02:29 PM
  #525
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I stopped reading after what I bolded.
LMAO. He's actually right that it is irrelevant, as per the buyout, because he would be sitting at home and we would still have the cap hit anyway. Because the buyout wasn't supposed to happen until june. In either case, the cap hit would've been there no matter the case.

But his cap hit won't be here next year, and neither will Kaberle's cap hit if he's bought out with the remaining compliance buyout.

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