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Old
01-27-2013, 12:57 PM
  #101
SprootsMasterFlex
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I think we can all agree that the assets, relationships, and needs are all there for a potential deal that could help out both teams immensely. I think we can all agree. There's no point in bashing each others players.

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01-27-2013, 01:07 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Minnesota View Post
Just wanted to point this out...

You are calling a 26 year old top-6 NHL player "on the decline," "spare part," "question mark," and "bust." However, your prospect has been described as a potential second-pairing D-man with size, good skating, and a solid shot.

It's cool that you don't want to trade away prospects - neither do I. But you need to understand: NHL player's value > Prospect.
Despres was our best blueliner in the play-offs last year. His potential is unlimited. I'd rather have a potential second d-pairing D-man with size, good skating and a solid shot than a 26-year old player that once netted 30 goals and now all the sudden struggles to get in the high teens and 40 points.

With your philosophy, would you trade Jason Zucker for Ben Lovejoy? After all, Lovejoy has way more NHL experience than Zucker.

I don't buy automatically the NHL players value is higher than a prospect. This is an instance that says otherwise.

By the way, I'm not opposed to trading prospects away if you can package them with a pick to get a quality talent; a difference maker and long term answer in return. Seto isn't any of those.

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01-27-2013, 01:13 PM
  #103
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I'd do it from the Pens perspective.

Some of my fellow Pens fans have it in their head that every Dman can be traded for a 40 goal scored, which is why they don't think Seto is enough.

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Old
01-27-2013, 01:15 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I'd do it from the Pens perspective.

Some of my fellow Pens fans have it in their head that every Dman can be traded for a 40 goal scored, which is why they don't think Seto is enough.
No, but trading a potential high end blueliner for Despres for a guy that can only muster 40 points isn't a good value return.

The people who think this is good think this is the same seto from SJ. He isn't. Not close either. If you trade Despres, its for a difference maker. Seto isn't.

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Old
01-27-2013, 01:25 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Just curious...does that apply to Coyle and Zucker too?
Absolutely. However, I'm a prospect hoarder - I hate the thought of trading away future potential.

Just to make things clear, I wouldn't do this trade from Pittsburgh's perspective.

I just wanted to point out that endless bashing of Setoguchi doesn't make a prospect with high potential worth more.

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Old
01-27-2013, 01:26 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
Despres was our best blueliner in the play-offs last year. His potential is unlimited. I'd rather have a potential second d-pairing D-man with size, good skating and a solid shot than a 26-year old player that once netted 30 goals and now all the sudden struggles to get in the high teens and 40 points.

With your philosophy, would you trade Jason Zucker for Ben Lovejoy? After all, Lovejoy has way more NHL experience than Zucker.

I don't buy automatically the NHL players value is higher than a prospect. This is an instance that says otherwise.

By the way, I'm not opposed to trading prospects away if you can package them with a pick to get a quality talent; a difference maker and long term answer in return. Seto isn't any of those.
First: Zucker for Lovejoy is not the debate, and you are doing nothing but creating a straw man argument by using that as an example.

Second: Just because you do not value Seto because of the few stats you have seen, does not mean his value is not there. I have been disappointed with Seto these last two years for various reasons, but this does not mean he does not have decent value. He needs to be in certain situations to excell, and he has not been in those situations for the last couple years. He still has good skill and value.

He was also hit by a car last year while he was at his chiropractor. Thats right, a CAR. Some crazy person drove their bloody car into the office he was in and hit him.

Please do not undervalue Seto because you do not know much about him.

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Old
01-27-2013, 01:26 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
No, but trading a potential high end blueliner for Despres for a guy that can only muster 40 points isn't a good value return.

The people who think this is good think this is the same seto from SJ. He isn't. Not close either. If you trade Despres, its for a difference maker. Seto isn't.
And how many Wild games have you watched? You act like Despres is a blue-chip prospect while Seto is some useless scrub who is doomed to never even sniff 15 goals again in his career. Tons of players have potential but rarely does a player ever reach his full potential. Despres is likely to be a 2nd pairing defenseman for most of his career while Seto is a sold RH top-6 winger. Real NHL players carry more value than a similar prospect, that is the reality.

And claiming that Despres was the second best defenseman on a playoff team that had a record breakingly terrible performance really isn't adding much value to him.

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Old
01-27-2013, 01:29 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
No, but trading a potential high end blueliner for Despres for a guy that can only muster 40 points isn't a good value return.

The people who think this is good think this is the same seto from SJ. He isn't. Not close either. If you trade Despres, its for a difference maker. Seto isn't.
Top 5 PP and elite center in SJ. To lowest scoring team in the league last year and **** PP. What do you think is going to happen to his stats?

It's crazy how many Pens fans don't see the importance of a playmaking center for a goal scoring winger like Seto. Neal was outscored by Kovalev the year he was traded here.

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Old
01-27-2013, 01:32 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
No, but trading a potential high end blueliner for Despres for a guy that can only muster 40 points isn't a good value return.

The people who think this is good think this is the same seto from SJ. He isn't. Not close either. If you trade Despres, its for a difference maker. Seto isn't.
What difference maker is Despres going to net you?

For all your bashing and shooting down other people's ideas, I've yet to see you suggest a better and still feasible option?

What is Setoguchi worth in your opinion? While I agree Despres shouldn't be traded, your posts are indicative of someone who thinks they can pull the wool over someone's eyes and make out like a bandit.

Iginla or bust? Ok, I'd love to hear you propose a deal that makes sense for both sides? Because according to you Glencross is worth a 2nd round pick and Lee Stempniak is a 14 goal scorer.

Don't forget the cap goes down next year, so any long term solution needs to be affordable; Malkin, Orpik, Kunitz, Sutter etc will need renewals after next year and Letang, Niskanen and potentially Despres will be in for pretty decent raises..

The Pens simply can't afford another 5+ million dollar winger in my opinion.. Another James Neal is unrealistic.

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Old
01-27-2013, 01:37 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
Despres was our best blueliner in the play-offs last year. His potential is unlimited. I'd rather have a potential second d-pairing D-man with size, good skating and a solid shot than a 26-year old player that once netted 30 goals and now all the sudden struggles to get in the high teens and 40 points.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Setoguchi. He was never in the greatest shape last season due to being hit by a car the previous offseason, he missed 13 games due to a knee injury, the Wild had a ton of injuries to their top 6 so Seto was playing with AHL scrubs nearly half the season, and he was on the worst offensive team in the NHL. I don't know how much clearer we can make it for you that Seto is still easily capable of 25-30 goals, especially if he'd be playing alongside Crosby.

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Old
01-27-2013, 01:38 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
No, but trading a potential high end blueliner for Despres for a guy that can only muster 40 points isn't a good value return.

The people who think this is good think this is the same seto from SJ. He isn't. Not close either. If you trade Despres, its for a difference maker. Seto isn't.
You're making Pens fans look bad TBH.

You're assuming that Des is going to be everything he projects to be and more while tearing down a 26 year old Seto and calling his a bust.

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Old
01-27-2013, 01:39 PM
  #112
DeuceMN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
No, but trading a potential high end blueliner for Despres for a guy that can only muster 40 points isn't a good value return.

The people who think this is good think this is the same seto from SJ. He isn't. Not close either. If you trade Despres, its for a difference maker. Seto isn't.
You're not getting a true "difference maker" forward for a prospect that has potential.

Seto is also not htat bad of a forward. Let's not forget just how bad Minnesota's offence is. He potted 19 goals last year on the worst offensive team in the damned league. Minnesota's top line wass centered by either a 3C or a career AHL C for almost a third of the year.

A few stats never show the truth. You know of, and believe in your prospect, so you are giving him greater value than he actually has. Seto is not known to you, and you are making judgements based on a few stats.

I understand, and think it's great to love high potential prospects. Minnesota loves Granlund, but even his current trade value is limited because of his lack of experience.

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Old
01-27-2013, 01:50 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
You're making Pens fans look bad TBH.

You're assuming that Des is going to be everything he projects to be and more while tearing down a 26 year old Seto and calling his a bust.
Yeah, but if all that happens, it could turn out to be a bad trade for the Penguins in 2-3 years, right?

And, yes, I'd make the trade.

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Old
01-27-2013, 01:57 PM
  #114
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Top 5 PP and elite center in SJ. To lowest scoring team in the league last year and **** PP. What do you think is going to happen to his stats?

It's crazy how many Pens fans don't see the importance of a playmaking center for a goal scoring winger like Seto. Neal was outscored by Kovalev the year he was traded here.
The funny thing is that nothing happened to his stats. They remained virtually the same.

Sort of undermines the idea that he would automatically score more on a higher scoring team with an elite center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota View Post
Absolutely. However, I'm a prospect hoarder - I hate the thought of trading away future potential.

Just to make things clear, I wouldn't do this trade from Pittsburgh's perspective.

I just wanted to point out that endless bashing of Setoguchi doesn't make a prospect with high potential worth more.
So you agree with the idea that the Pens shouldn't trade Despres for Setoguchi, but you think the value is there?

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01-27-2013, 01:58 PM
  #115
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Sounds like a win-win.

Maybe it will happen. People had been calling for the Neal-Goligoski trade for a year before it happened. Sure the added parts moved around a lot depending on which fan base you spoke to but the basics of the deal were talked about often. This one is another that could work for both.

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Old
01-27-2013, 02:04 PM
  #116
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I'd do that trade and run. Setoguchi's value is dropping like a rock.

Setoguchi's still living off the equity of one good season years ago playing alongside one of the best playmakers the game has ever seen. Ever since he's been an enigma. He has some talent, but he rarely shows it and does nothing to help your team when he's not scoring. It's either top-6 or bust, and he's not good enough for the top-6. I never wanted him here for those reasons, and I'd beg Pittsburgh to take him for a nice defensive prospect.

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01-27-2013, 02:05 PM
  #117
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The funny thing is that nothing happened to his stats. They remained virtually the same.

Sort of undermines the idea that he would automatically score more on a higher scoring team with an elite center.
It's called inconsistency. 7 goals in the 2011 playoffs. I'll take proven production in the postseason.

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01-27-2013, 02:22 PM
  #118
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Have you guys ever thought about Brian Dumoulin for Setoguchi?

It would solve a lot of issues on both teams in regards to waiver eligibility for Minny so they can call up a toward to replace Seto with no issues and allow Pens to keep Despres in the big leagues.

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01-27-2013, 02:24 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
It's called inconsistency. 7 goals in the 2011 playoffs. I'll take proven production in the postseason.
Contrary to prior arguments here, his regular season production has remained about as consistent as possible since his '08-'09 season. Good team or bad team, high-scoring team or low-scoring team, elite center or non-elite center.

But I guess we're hanging our hat on playoff production now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
I'd do that trade and run. Setoguchi's value is dropping like a rock.

Setoguchi's still living off the equity of one good season years ago playing alongside one of the best playmakers the game has ever seen. Ever since he's been an enigma. He has some talent, but he rarely shows it and does nothing to help your team when he's not scoring. It's either top-6 or bust, and he's not good enough for the top-6. I never wanted him here for those reasons, and I'd beg Pittsburgh to take him for a nice defensive prospect.
Well whaddya know? A Minnesota fan who's not trying to delude people into thinking Setoguchi's a surefire sniper being held down by the Wild.

Respect.

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Old
01-27-2013, 02:39 PM
  #120
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I think if you read the thread, every Wild fan has said anything BUT sure fire. We've called him enigmatic at best, as he struggles if he's asked to be the primary offensive threat on a line like he's been asked to be here. He succeeds in situations only...he needs an elite center. He hasn't had in Minnesota, and really hasn't had it in a few years. He was a 3rd liner in his last season with the Sharks, which is why his stats declined there as well...he thrived when centered by Thornton, and "should thrive"if centered by Crosby.

He succeeds as a secondary threat.

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Old
01-27-2013, 02:43 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I'd do it from the Pens perspective.

Some of my fellow Pens fans have it in their head that every Dman can be traded for a 40 goal scored, which is why they don't think Seto is enough.
Not my thinking at all. I just want to see Depres develop some more as well as some others before we send them off on what I view a 1 1/2 year winger with 'some' question marks, in my eyes anyway.

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Old
01-27-2013, 02:44 PM
  #122
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Crosby/Malkin>>Thornton in his prime. While I don't particularly like Setoguchi, he is not nearly as bad as OCPenguin makes him look. MOD

Seto could easily return to 30/30 form playing with Crosby. He reported to training camp lighter with more muscle and although he's pointless, he has looked very good. If Brodin plays well this season Gilbert could also be included in a deal.


Last edited by Fugu: 01-27-2013 at 03:00 PM. Reason: ot, he's not the topic of the thread
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Old
01-27-2013, 02:56 PM
  #123
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Crosby/Malkin>>Thornton in his prime. While I don't particularly like Setoguchi, he is not nearly as bad as OCPenguin makes him look.
In terms of overall play, maybe. In terms of pure playmaking ability, absolutely not.

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Old
01-27-2013, 02:59 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Contrary to prior arguments here, his regular season production has remained about as consistent as possible since his '08-'09 season. Good team or bad team, high-scoring team or low-scoring team, elite center or non-elite center.

But I guess we're hanging our hat on playoff production now.



Well whaddya know? A Minnesota fan who's not trying to delude people into thinking Setoguchi's a surefire sniper being held down by the Wild.

Respect.
While I understand your point, SoH is the most negative poster over on MN's boards. Everyone is bad, everyone should be traded, the team is horrible = his POV.

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01-27-2013, 03:01 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Contrary to prior arguments here, his regular season production has remained about as consistent as possible since his '08-'09 season. Good team or bad team, high-scoring team or low-scoring team, elite center or non-elite center.

But I guess we're hanging our hat on playoff production now.



Well whaddya know? A Minnesota fan who's not trying to delude people into thinking Setoguchi's a surefire sniper being held down by the Wild.

Respect.

Not a Minnesota fan.

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