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The Race to the Bottom - Rebuild Thread.

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Old
01-27-2013, 02:28 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
If you just want to read the facts you don't need to visit a discussion board. Just watch tv and get the reports.

Leafs lost last night, and didn't look particularly good doing so. See no need for discussions.

Kessel is an offensive player, something he is very good at, but that's it. We can want him to be someone else, but that doesn't make it so.
This is something that's really common, but outside of your first sentence, none of the rest of this has ANYTHING to do with what I mean, or was questioning.

I meant that people need to stop acting like the Organization looks at this player the way they (as emotional, reactionary fans) do. As a fan base, one has to simply browse through threads to see emotional, reactionary, illogical nonsense. The way people talk about players here is hillarious.

I meant that people need to stop living in the hypothetical that our organization will just dump a 25 year old for unknowns, just because he's not a defensive stalwart, or is the legacy of a GM that our current GM models himself after (in many aspects).

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01-27-2013, 02:30 PM
  #252
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Is Washington really this bad? Down 0-1 to Buffalo in the first, on paper they should be better than 1 point thus far this year.

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01-27-2013, 02:32 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Is Washington really this bad? Down 0-1 to Buffalo in the first, on paper they should be better than 1 point thus far this year.
Including their top players being in the KHL before coming back, it's terrible. Might be that Holtby just got lucky last year.

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01-27-2013, 02:32 PM
  #254
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In the salary cup era, you only have a certain % of money to put players in the core category. Allocating money to quality players is a key to good teams.

Ours core players are paid:

Grabo 5.5M
Dion 6.5M
Kessel 5.4M
Lupul 5.25M
Komi 4.5M

Compare this to Boston last year

Chara 6.9M
Krejci 5.25M
Bergeron 5M
Thomas 5M
Lucic 4.1M


The comparison is telling, this core is a disappointment to what they are paid when you compare them to the better teams in the NHL. This is where we are going to have to subtract and hopefully add to this deadline or summer if we want to get better, 3rd and 4th lines don't win championships. Core players do, this core has been a continual failure, so what is happening this season should not be a surprise. RC's improved coaching may keep us from a top 2 pick, but it won't keep us from not making a top 5-10 pick.
Excellent post. About a week ago I suggested it could be in the Leafs long term interest to trade Lupul to get assets for him and free up cap space and got ripped apart for it.

My argument came down to basically we have the choice of keep Lupul or Grabo. Personally, I like Lupul more cause he has higher upside.

This team really needs to trade Grabo by the deadline to gain assets (picks-prospects) but just as or even more importantly gain cap space. In the off-season there will be no market for him. But if we trade him to a team looking to do damage in the playoff we can get something nice back. Then we can go into the off-season as one of the few teams that can take on significant salary and loaded up on assets in the form of picks, prospect and young cheap players that teams look for when shedding higher salary players.

Komisarek will get us nothing in return. We can make a decision on him in the summer. If we need to buy him out to land a Getzlaf then we do but if only a marginal upgrade is available we just ride out his contract next season and-or trade him at the deadline next year.

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01-27-2013, 02:32 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Is Washington really this bad? Down 0-1 to Buffalo in the first, on paper they should be better than 1 point thus far this year.
I think they are going to be competing with us for draft position. Something is seriously wrong in Washington.

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01-27-2013, 02:37 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Excellent post. About a week ago I suggested it could be in the Leafs long term interest to trade Lupul to get assets for him and free up cap space and got ripped apart for it.

My argument came down to basically we have the choice of keep Lupul or Grabo. Personally, I like Lupul more cause he has higher upside.

This team really needs to trade Grabo by the deadline to gain assets (picks-prospects) but just as or even more importantly gain cap space. In the off-season there will be no market for him. But if we trade him to a team looking to do damage in the playoff we can get something nice back. Then we can go into the off-season as one of the few teams that can take on significant salary and loaded up on assets in the form of picks, prospect and young cheap players that teams look for when shedding higher salary players.

Komisarek will get us nothing in return. We can make a decision on him in the summer. If we need to buy him out to land a Getzlaf then we do but if only a marginal upgrade is available we just ride out his contract next season and-or trade him at the deadline next year.
Soooo... Trade our #2 center for question marks, to a playoff team, where the pick will be low, and the chances EXTREMELY low that we get equal to Grabo's value out of the deal?

Lupul and Grabo also play different positions, why does one or the other have to go?

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01-27-2013, 02:39 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Excellent post. About a week ago I suggested it could be in the Leafs long term interest to trade Lupul to get assets for him and free up cap space and got ripped apart for it.

My argument came down to basically we have the choice of keep Lupul or Grabo. Personally, I like Lupul more cause he has higher upside.

This team really needs to trade Grabo by the deadline to gain assets (picks-prospects) but just as or even more importantly gain cap space. In the off-season there will be no market for him. But if we trade him to a team looking to do damage in the playoff we can get something nice back. Then we can go into the off-season as one of the few teams that can take on significant salary and loaded up on assets in the form of picks, prospect and young cheap players that teams look for when shedding higher salary players.

Komisarek will get us nothing in return. We can make a decision on him in the summer. If we need to buy him out to land a Getzlaf then we do but if only a marginal upgrade is available we just ride out his contract next season and-or trade him at the deadline next year.
I've noticed just today there are a few more on the board of trade Grabo, we need to seriously re-think where we are allocating our cap space to, what players will help turn this franchise around.

This team is so far away from the love the Gilmour team or some of the Sundin teams had in character that we leafs fans fell in love with.

I don't have any attachment to the guys on our team, lovable losers, at this point, would just like to clean the slate with all of them.

I said this before, Burke built this team as a mish mash collection of players, the pieces are there for a ok team but they don't fit the square on the board. A collection of players is not a team, let's build a team not collect players. I have more confidence Nonis will do it right this time, The Kessel deal was like fitting a round peg into a square hole, he doesn't fit here, and Grabo at 5.5 as a #2C does not either. We know the past 2 games he fell short as a #1 losing head to head against Richards and Tavares. That's the crux of it.

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01-27-2013, 02:45 PM
  #258
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Grabovski has been a bright spot, and one of the best forwards on this team so far.

People can ignore this all they like, because they don't want him here personally, but his play has spoken for itself.

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01-27-2013, 02:48 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Soooo... Trade our #2 center for question marks, to a playoff team, where the pick will be low, and the chances EXTREMELY low that we get equal to Grabo's value out of the deal?

Lupul and Grabo also play different positions, why does one or the other have to go?
Time to wake up, this year there are signs of more of the same from last year, and the 3 years before.

When do we smell the coffee beans? To ignore the same cast of players are not getting the job done, and to post let's hold onto them is really not fitting of a poster with the moniker of "moderator of logic".

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01-27-2013, 02:50 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Time to wake up, this year there are signs of more of the same from last year, and the 3 years before.

When do we smell the coffee beans? To ignore the same cast of players are not getting the job done, and to post let's hold onto them is really not fitting of a poster with the moniker of "moderator of logic".
The fact that people think Mikhail Grabovski is even close to being the problem defies all logic and common sense, and suggests that they absolutely ignore watching the games.

There's no other way to explain it. He's been one of out top 3 forwards this year, and in the last two years, has played an important role with the club.

He can play the wing, and is in no way, exclusively a center. He's a good piece to have as an offensive option that plays hard on a night to night basis.

He's anything but the problem.

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01-27-2013, 02:52 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Grabovski has been a bright spot, and one of the best forwards on this team so far.

People can ignore this all they like, because they don't want him here personally, but his play has spoken for itself.
Agreed, he started a bit slow but he's really turned it around.

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01-27-2013, 02:52 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Soooo... Trade our #2 center for question marks, to a playoff team, where the pick will be low, and the chances EXTREMELY low that we get equal to Grabo's value out of the deal?

Lupul and Grabo also play different positions, why does one or the other have to go?
It has to do with how much cap space we`re tying up in a forward group that has not got it done.

Grabo is a 2nd line center.

I would have preferred Grabo traded last deadline then reinked for that type of money but I also understand why he was inked. Grabos cap hit compared to his upside is a bad salary when you compare him to guys like Bergeron, Benn, Krejci, Richards, Sharp, Tavares, Hossa, Carter, etc., etc.

We had to overpay for him cause we`re a bad team and bad teams generally have to overpay to kepp-attract players.

But now we`ve got Kadri who is ready for prime time and can fill that 2nd line spot for a much cheaper cost.

Toronto needs size and elite talent. Grabo is neither of these but his cap hit stands in the way of us being able to get a player of this attributes in a trade or free agency. Even if we don`t get the ideal replacement for Grabo but take his cap hit and apply it to say a guy like Weiss or Roy we`re still further ahead cause we`ve got around an equivalent player plus added whatever picks-prospects we got in a trade for Grabo.


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01-27-2013, 02:53 PM
  #263
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Lupul's injury has completely exposed our lack of offensive depth. MacArthur and Kulemin are not playing like second line players, Bozak still isn't a #1 center, Grabovski has been sub-par, and Kessel looks lost. Kadri and Frattin can only cover for so much.

I honestly have no idea what to do. I think we might have to just wait this season out and retool in the offseason.

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01-27-2013, 02:56 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
The fact that people think Mikhail Grabovski is even close to being the problem defies all logic and common sense, and suggests that they absolutely ignore watching the games.

There's no other way to explain it. He's been one of out top 3 forwards this year, and in the last two years, has played an important role with the club.

He can play the wing, and is in no way, exclusively a center. He's a good piece to have as an offensive option that plays hard on a night to night basis.

He's anything but the problem.
Just to correct you, Grabo was invisible the first 2 games until RC had a chewed him out. #1.

#2. He has scored, to his credit responded to RC's coaching.

#3. He also makes 5.5 M was on the ice when the NY Isles made their comeback, was on the ice again when the Rangers was on the ice, and made their comeback.

So yes, he has been a bright spot in some cases, but you are overlooking the complete picture. This team is losing with the same cast of characters placed and paid in roles they have no business being in, and I am not singling out Grabo.

Dion, Kessel, Lupul, Komi, all have a stake in it also. When a team fails for 5 years in a row since first Burke was brought in to rebuild this team, how long do you stand pat? Or preach our players are not the problem. This is illogical unless one is sado-masochistic.

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01-27-2013, 02:58 PM
  #265
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It has to do with how much cap space we`re tying up in a forward group that has got it done.

Grabo is a 2nd line center.

I would have preferred Grabo traded last deadline then reinked for that type of money but I also understand why he was inked. Grabos cap hit compared to his upside is a bad salary when you compare him to guys like Bergeron, Benn, Krejci, Richards, Sharp, Tavares, Hossa, Carter, etc., etc.

We had to overpay for him cause we`re a bad team and bad teams generally have to overpay to kepp-attract players.

But now we`ve got Kadri who is ready for prime time and can fill that 2nd line spot for a much cheaper cost.

Toronto needs size and elite talent. Grabo is neither of these but his cap hit stands in the way of us being able to get a player of this attributes in a trade or free agency. Even if we don`t get the ideal replacement for Grabo but take his cap hit and apply it to say a guy like Weiss or Roy we`re still further ahead cause we`ve got around an equivalent player plus added whatever picks-prospects we got in a trade for Grabo.
All of these are 1st line players.... why is it you choose to use those as comparables, when you have no business doing so? NOBODY is about to compare Grabo's talent to those guys, but in terms of his role and importance to the club, whether that be in the middle, or on the wing as a scoring winger, and given what he could've received on the open market, we paid what we had to.

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01-27-2013, 02:58 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
The fact that people think Mikhail Grabovski is even close to being the problem defies all logic and common sense, and suggests that they absolutely ignore watching the games.

There's no other way to explain it. He's been one of out top 3 forwards this year, and in the last two years, has played an important role with the club.

He can play the wing, and is in no way, exclusively a center. He's a good piece to have as an offensive option that plays hard on a night to night basis.

He's anything but the problem.
Then who do we take away from our core to gain assets as well as cap space

Kessel has scored over 30 every year.

Nobody wants Lupul gone.

JVR just got here and hasn`t even hit his peak years.

Phaneuf plays almost half the game and he carried this team on his back the first half of last year.

Connolly and Lombardi already gone.

Komisarek only has 1 more year left on his deal.

People want a rebuild and to get nice assets but don`t want to give up anything of value.

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01-27-2013, 02:59 PM
  #267
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Just to correct you, Grabo was invisible the first 2 games until RC had a chewed him out. #1.

#2. He has scored, to his credit responded to RC's coaching.

#3. He also makes 5.5 M was on the ice when the NY Isles made their comeback, was on the ice again when the Rangers was on the ice, and made their comeback.

So yes, he has been a bright spot in some cases, but you are overlooking the complete picture. This team is losing with the same cast of characters placed and paid in roles they have no business being in, and I am not singling out Grabo.

Dion, Kessel, Lupul, Komi, all have a stake in it also. When a team fails for 5 years in a row since first Burke was brought in to rebuild this team, how long do you stand pat? Or preach our players are not the problem. This is illogical unless one is sado-masochistic .
Well, maybe Randy Carlyle should be fired for not putting 4 other guys on the ice to help Grabo out, when those teams stormed back and beat us.... Oh wait....

You're better than that.... try harder.

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01-27-2013, 03:00 PM
  #268
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Then who do we take away from our core to gain assets as well as cap space

Kessel has scored over 30 every year.

Nobody wants Lupul gone.

JVR just got here and hasn`t even hit his peak years.

Phaneuf plays almost half the game and he carried this team on his back the first half of last year.

Connolly and Lombardi already gone.

Komisarek only has 1 more year left on his deal.

People want a rebuild and to get nice assets but don`t want to give up anything of value.
Missing the point.... Who ever said I wanted to tear it all down?

we don't have to, we don't have the goaltending to get us out of the bottom. We'll be just fine.

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01-27-2013, 03:00 PM
  #269
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All of these are 1st line players.... why is it you choose to use those as comparables, when you have no business doing so? NOBODY is about to compare Grabo's talent to those guys, but in terms of his role and importance to the club, whether that be in the middle, or on the wing as a scoring winger, and given what he could've received on the open market, we paid what we had to.
Because a player needs to be judged by his cap hit and I want the Leafs to have players that earn or will earn their cap hits in comparison to comparables around the league so that the team can be a winner.

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01-27-2013, 03:01 PM
  #270
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Lupul's injury has completely exposed our lack of offensive depth. MacArthur and Kulemin are not playing like second line players, Bozak still isn't a #1 center, Grabovski has been sub-par, and Kessel looks lost. Kadri and Frattin can only cover for so much.

I honestly have no idea what to do. I think we might have to just wait this season out and retool in the offseason.
Dont think we need to retool this off-season. If we are to retool need to do it before the deadline.

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01-27-2013, 03:01 PM
  #271
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Including their top players being in the KHL before coming back, it's terrible. Might be that Holtby just got lucky last year.
ovechkin and backstrom suck now and semin is gone

so yeah, black hole

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01-27-2013, 03:04 PM
  #272
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Because a player needs to be judged by his cap hit and I want the Leafs to have players that earn or will earn their cap hits in comparison to comparables around the league so that the team can be a winner.
Again, what has Grabo done this year other than pick himself up by the bootstraps, and be one of our best forwards?

He struggled out of the gate, took the coaching, and came out roaring... I don't see Phil, Kulemin, or Bozak doing that...

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01-27-2013, 03:04 PM
  #273
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Well, maybe Randy Carlyle should be fired for not putting 4 other guys on the ice to help Grabo out, when those teams stormed back and beat us.... Oh wait....

You're better than that.... try harder.
Grabo is the highest paid fwd, who does RC play then in his place?

Point right in front of you, as Staal was right in beside Grabo when he scored.

He's not worth the 5.5M he is being paid as a first liner when you compare his salary around the league, thus for now he is the best we have. BUT, and this is a big BUT...

When and if we can find better, Grabo should be out of here, so this team can move fwd. Not the why trade him because he is our best present C you so often confuse it as.

So to recap so there is no misunderstanding between me and you, we hold on to him because we have no one better, but if an offer comes where we can improve on our best Center for 5.5M per, we move him. So this team can get better and move forward.

Heaven knows we have seen enough losing with this core by now.

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01-27-2013, 03:05 PM
  #274
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to every homer "leafs fan" that denounces all criticism from all players:


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01-27-2013, 03:05 PM
  #275
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ovechkin and backstrom suck now and semin is gone

so yeah, black hole
Gardiner for Backstrom?

Washington is going nowhere with the passionless ovi, he just isnt into it like he was before. He gets by purely on his talent, but hardly puts anything into it any more IMO.

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