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Old
01-27-2013, 03:04 PM
  #451
Avs44
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This is a joke...Rattie and Stewart stars? Liles better than anyone on our D? Elliot a good goalie? He is a product of the Blues system. He was HORRIBLE here. Glad he is gone. I would easily do the Varlamov trade again.


OP is either not an Avs fan(judging from his assements, this is the case) a troll, or smoking something.

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Old
01-27-2013, 03:19 PM
  #452
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Shattenkirk is really overrated now. His offense is great and he's a very smart player, but he's sheltered defensively and plays on a much better team. He's a solid top 4 pod, but nowhere close to EJ overall.
That's not "overrating" him. We all know he was never going to be a #1 defenseman. He was always going to be just a little suspect in his own end. Yeah, he's flourishing as a result of a great defensive system and being surrounded by talent--he's being used exactly in the way a player like him should be. It's not overrating when some of us say both he and Liles play better in the defensive end than most defenders their size.

My only problem, at present, is that the Avs traded away both him and Liles (and also got rid of Quincey) and filled the D ranks with big, slow guys. I get it, we're developing puckmoving defensemen now, but I can't help but think the transition from a smaller, speedier, more easily pushed around D to one that was bigger and tougher could have been a bit smoother. Right now we're relying on EJ and Hunwick to provide all the offense...and frankly that's absurd.

I think most of us can at least agree that the trade was a good one, but it was a big price to pay nonetheless.

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01-27-2013, 03:22 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
That's not "overrating" him. We all know he was never going to be a #1 defenseman. He was always going to be just a little suspect in his own end. Yeah, he's flourishing as a result of a great defensive system and being surrounded by talent--he's being used exactly in the way a player like him should be. It's not overrating when some of us say both he and Liles play better in the defensive end than most defenders their size.

My only problem, at present, is that the Avs traded away both him and Liles (and also got rid of Quincey) and filled the D ranks with big, slow guys. I get it, we're developing puckmoving defensemen now, but I can't help but think the transition from a smaller, speedier, more easily pushed around D to one that was bigger and tougher could have been a bit smoother. Right now we're relying on EJ and Hunwick to provide all the offense...and frankly that's absurd.

I think most of us can at least agree that the trade was a good one, but it was a big price to pay nonetheless.
You got to give up quality to get quality, this isn't nhl 13 where you can load up a value meter to match the player you want to get.

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Old
01-27-2013, 03:25 PM
  #454
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Dang...we missed out on Ty "guaranteed future hall of famer" Rattie and only got this huge bust Johnson.

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01-27-2013, 03:25 PM
  #455
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You got to give up quality to get quality, this isn't nhl 13 where you can load up a value meter to match the player you want to get.
Precisely my point.

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01-27-2013, 03:26 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
That's not "overrating" him. We all know he was never going to be a #1 defenseman. He was always going to be just a little suspect in his own end. Yeah, he's flourishing as a result of a great defensive system and being surrounded by talent--he's being used exactly in the way a player like him should be. It's not overrating when some of us say both he and Liles play better in the defensive end than most defenders their size.

My only problem, at present, is that the Avs traded away both him and Liles (and also got rid of Quincey) and filled the D ranks with big, slow guys. I get it, we're developing puckmoving defensemen now, but I can't help but think the transition from a smaller, speedier, more easily pushed around D to one that was bigger and tougher could have been a bit smoother. Right now we're relying on EJ and Hunwick to provide all the offense...and frankly that's absurd.

I think most of us can at least agree that the trade was a good one, but it was a big price to pay nonetheless.
Avs overdid the small PMD thing, it crashed and they decided to go in the opposite direction and are overdoing it.

They'll get it right eventually.

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Old
01-27-2013, 03:29 PM
  #457
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ďItís embarrassing. Iím embarrassed to be here right now. Itís not even funny. And itís just embarrassing, the way we, you know, the energy we have in the room and the way we approach practices and the way we approach this game. Itís not how youíre going to win any games in this league." - Jean-Sebastien Giguere, April 8 2013
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Old
01-27-2013, 03:32 PM
  #458
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Eric Johnson
I prefer EJ Johnson.

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01-27-2013, 04:02 PM
  #459
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Hilarious thread but it is worth noting that we are in the 4th year of our rebuild. At some point patience with management will run thin as it well should.

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Old
01-27-2013, 04:30 PM
  #460
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I'd give this thread a 3/10

The beat is off, and it's hard to dance to.

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Old
01-27-2013, 04:35 PM
  #461
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I'd give this thread a 3/10

The beat is off, and it's hard to dance to.
I'll beat you off with both hands.

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Old
01-27-2013, 04:39 PM
  #462
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I'll beat you off with both hands.
ummm

no thanks

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Old
01-27-2013, 04:55 PM
  #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Looking back on his trades, is it just me or have they all turned out to be horrible decisions?

I think he would have been 10x better off just leaving this team together but he chose to tear it apart and we have not seen anything resembling a playoff calibre team.

The BAD:

1- Ryan Smyth to LA for Quincey. Quincey to Detroit for Downie.
I'd rather have Ryan Smyth than the other two. The old veteran Smyth's leadership would be in-valuable on this young team. Downie is a freaking moron and his antics cost us games.

2- Stewart, Shattenkirk and Ty Rattie are stars.
We lost out horribly on that trade. Terrible. Terrible trade. Johnson has been Ok but look what we gave up. It's sickening to see the players we gave up. I hope Siemens turns out to be the next Pronger or this could be one of the worst trades ever.

3- Brian Elliot. We could have had him and our 1st round pick (Filip Forsberg) instead of Varly. I love Varly but we gave up alot for him and let a good goalie go for free.

4- The Varly trade. It wasn't needed. Filip Forsberg and our 2013 pick would be nice especially considering we had Elliot.

4- JM Liles for a 2nd round pick
Are you *** kidding me? Shattenkirk and Liles are better than anyone we have on our D right now.

The GOOD:

I like the Winnik for McGinn deal. We got two nice prospects in return.

The O'Byrne and Hunwick deals were nice but not a big deal because both guys are #5 or #6 guys at best.

Im not counting his decision to let Fleishmann and Mueller leave because of his health issues.

JS Giguere was a nice signign and Parenteau, Zanon and Mitchell look to be a nice signings as well but we horribly over-paid for Hedja. He will probably be bought out next year.

Look at what could have been:

LW - C- RW

Gabe Landeskog - Matt Duchene - PA Parenteau
Chris Stewart - Paul Stastny - David Jones
Ryan Smyth - John Mitchell - Milan Hedjuk
Jamie McGinn - Marc Olver - Cody Mcleod
Patrick Bordeleau - Chuck Kobasew

**O'Reilly

Defense

Kevin Shattenkirk - Ryan Wilson
JM Liles - Greg Zanon
Ryan O'Byrne - Jan Hedja
Matt Hunwick

Goal:

Brian Elliot
JS Giguere

--Ty Rattie and Filip Forsberg for the future. Both will be stars and both guys would be our top farm players right now.

All in all, Sherman has made some nice signings considering we have an owner who doesn't want to spend money but his trades have been horrific to say the least. This team would be better up front. It would have better D-men and probably a wash in net. Plus, we would have two future stars ready to help out in a few seasons.
completely disagree on smyth trade, he was making around 6m and wasnt worth that to a rebuilding avalanche team, he did nothing in la and whined to get out of there and they ended up winning a cup without him, he has been ok for the oilers but that is also because he wants to be there.

quincey ended up getting a 1st some how and downie is a great piece to this team moving forward. love all parts of those trades by sherman.

the stl trade is still debatable, shatty is really good and stewart has up and down potential. EJ vs shatty 10 years from now will determine winner of trade. i give a slight edge currently to stl in that trade.

elliot would be nowhere near the goalie he was last year if he was on the avs, dont fool yourself its anything but hitchcocks system at play there. varlamov has tons of talent and is 10x the goalie elliot is.

as for varly trade, the 2nd got dealt as part of a package by the caps and it was a pick acquired by the avs anyways, so essentially it breaks down to varly for forsberg, top goalies have more value than top 6 forwards, look at the price of lindback who is nowhere near the talent of varly. trade looks pretty fair for both sides id say, considering the depth the caps have in net than and now.

liles trade was probably premature, couldve used him last year and now, probably sherms worst trade thus far. liles was a part of the core and would be a big part of the backline if he was still here.

personally i think the avs current roster looks better than what you have written above.

and theres no guarantee forsberg wouldve been picked by the avs or if the avs wouldve drafted 11th overall last summer.

siemes > rattie as well.

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Old
01-27-2013, 06:06 PM
  #464
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I'll add the trades for Downie and McGinn as well as the Parenteau signing more than likely wouldn't have happened without Stewart, Winnik, and Galiardi being traded. Also, a top pairing of Shattenkirk and Wilson would be exploited to the point that it would be funny. Getting Johnson has been the best move this organization has made in a long time.

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Old
01-27-2013, 06:15 PM
  #465
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Ryan Smyth turns 37 in February, he played 11 minutes last night, has no points this season, and has seen his point totals dive in four straight seasons.

Steve Downie will never be mistaken for Corey Perry but turning a washed up Ryan Smyth into a 25/26-year-old with offensive upside can't be viewed as anything other than a win.

If someone wants to argue about the leadership Smyth could provide, I point to Milan Hejduk. Almost identical players: born seven days apart, 371/373 career goals, 797/806 career points. The role of fading mentor is being filled.

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Old
01-27-2013, 11:05 PM
  #466
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This thread. So much win. I feel like you've been watching stats sheets as opposed to actual games

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Old
01-27-2013, 11:21 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Elliot had 972 shots against in 38 games last year. or 25 per game. Varlamov had 1564 in 53 games last year or 29 per game. Not a huge difference.

Johnson is good yes but he is not the top pairing D-man we thought he would be. Not even close.

Chris Stewart, Kevin Shattenkirk, JM Liles, Filip Forsberg and Ty Rattie

FOR

Eric Johnson, Semyon Varlamov, Duncan Siemens and a 2nd round pick

Would you do that deal today?

It's actually Erik

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Old
01-27-2013, 11:39 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
The BAD:
3- Brian Elliot. We could have had him and our 1st round pick (Filip Forsberg) instead of Varly. I love Varly but we gave up alot for him and let a good goalie go for free.

4- The Varly trade. It wasn't needed. Filip Forsberg and our 2013 pick would be nice especially considering we had Elliot.
I disagree with almost every point you bring up, but especially these.

Varlamov is exactly the goalie we need for this franchise. I am more than okay giving up the draft picks we did for Varly, who has played well considering how weak our defense has been for awhile now.

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01-28-2013, 12:19 AM
  #469
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Greg Sherman is a boss. Every move he has made has turned out well. Its kind of unfortunate that ROR is holding out and downie got injured because i think we were playoff bound this year, but the chances are slim now given the circumstances. The Varly trade was the best trade he made. I'd do the trade again any day of the week. You'll never get anywhere without a number 1 goalie. Its better and cheaper to have an outstanding goalie and mediocre defence than an OK goalie and solid defence, IMO ofcorse. The EJ trade was good as well. Imagine our defence as it is right now but instead of EJ we have Shattenkirk.... yeah hells no. Shatty's an awesome player but is no where close to being as good as EJ defensively.

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01-28-2013, 12:22 AM
  #470
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Although we've seen EJ and Varly play for a season, I think we have to give them the benefit of the doubt. EJ still hasn't had a good defensive partner (I think Quincey looked the best with him and he's pretty awful, even though he was playing well for a bit) and Varly has been with a weak defensive team. I really wish we had one of JML or Shattenkirk. I think giving both of them up was a mistake, but if Barrie or Elliot look good in a year (which seems likely) it will work out. We really need one of those guys to be studs because our D are pretty terrible. At this point, I'm definitely on board with getting a #2 D for O'Reilly + if needed.

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01-28-2013, 06:16 AM
  #471
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I think Sherman has done a decente job given the fact he has a small budget to work with. We have a below average payroll and a bellow average team.

He hasn't overpaid in free agency and hasn't been beaten clearly in the trades he has made. But at the same time, he has neglected some of the needs this team has had for some time now, like a true goal scorer and a puck moving Dman that can QB the Power Play.

But i guess, with a limited payroll it is not easy to adress it.

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Old
01-28-2013, 07:52 AM
  #472
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Moved this to the Sherman thread we already had.

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Old
01-28-2013, 08:02 AM
  #473
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I think Sherman has done a decente job given the fact he has a small budget to work with. We have a below average payroll and a bellow average team.

He hasn't overpaid in free agency and hasn't been beaten clearly in the trades he has made. But at the same time, he has neglected some of the needs this team has had for some time now, like a true goal scorer and a puck moving Dman that can QB the Power Play.

But i guess, with a limited payroll it is not easy to adress it.
This. I personally think Sacco and the team ARE presently playing to their ability, and that ability has us bottom 15% of the league consistently.

People can compliment Sherman all they like, but Avs have a losing culture under him, and the present roster has the lowest skill set ceiling I've ever experienced as both a Quebec and Avs fan.

Basically, Shermy has made it ok for the players, coaches, fans and everyone else around this team to lose, and consistently. I absolutely adore this team. Always have, always will. I loved us before these players and coaches were in it, and will long after. At this stage of being a fan, whilst I love the brand, I most certainly don't like the players and staff in it.

Makes for one big pile of Avalanche mediocrity.

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01-28-2013, 09:28 AM
  #474
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This. I personally think Sacco and the team ARE presently playing to their ability, and that ability has us bottom 15% of the league consistently.

People can compliment Sherman all they like, but Avs have a losing culture under him, and the present roster has the lowest skill set ceiling I've ever experienced as both a Quebec and Avs fan.

Basically, Shermy has made it ok for the players, coaches, fans and everyone else around this team to lose, and consistently. I absolutely adore this team. Always have, always will. I loved us before these players and coaches were in it, and will long after. At this stage of being a fan, whilst I love the brand, I most certainly don't like the players and staff in it.

Makes for one big pile of Avalanche mediocrity.
I'm not sure it is his fault completely, it starts with the owners. If they set a low budget, chances are we're going to struggle to make the playoffs.

Now, since we are rebuilding, they have the perfect excuse not to spend, telling us that they are waiting for the right time to go after some big names. Maybe this will be the year, or maybe not. Personally i'm not expecting anything to be diferent this year.

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01-28-2013, 10:00 AM
  #475
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Is everyone forgetting that Suter and Parise would not have come here regardless of what Sherman did? Unless he offered $10 million a year there was no way they were coming here. Sherman has done fine so far, he's given us a no. 1 centre, no. 1 defenseman, and a no. 1 goalie who I wouldn't give up for Brian Elliot and Filip Forsberg. Now Sherman just has to fill in the top 6 and get a decent partner for Johnson which is easier said then done.

It appears many here think that Sherman is just sitting around doing nothing. How do we know whats going on? It's not like NHL 13 where you see a hole in your line-up search through another teams roster and make a trade. This upcoming off-season is a big moment for Sherman though in my opinion. This is where something has to happen, a new coach, new wingers, and a defensive partner for EJ. Sometimes free agents just don't want to come here and some players aren't for trade so we have to make due with what we have.

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