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The Race to the Bottom - Rebuild Thread.

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Old
01-27-2013, 03:55 PM
  #326
Interactif
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Who in the free-agency do you think is the better second line center? Last time I recall, Kesler isn't available, neither is Mike Richards.

I've been in the Kadri Bandwagon since I actually started to follow him, and I know what he is capable of. If Carlyle follows the simple rules of shifting him the correct times, Grabovski wouldn't even take his time. We've seen Colorado use 3 centers with atleast 19-18 minutes each no problem, so I really doubt he would give us ANY issue.

You constantly are talking about cap-space but who on earth are you trying to sign and why must it be Grabovski that moves for the cap space? You are frustrated about his contract having a cap hit of 5.5 right? Well let's see connolly is 4.25, he's GONE this off-season. So that gives us 1.25 of grabo's apparently huge caphit, and then we also lose steckel, 1.1 mil right there, so now we are stuck with .15, oh look at that ! Kostka is .6 mil so lets not re-sign him and get a younger prospect to play. BOOM! the entire caphit space thing is completely gone.
Does limited capspace prehibit one from improving the team, have you thought about this? And the only way you get better is play the youth in important mins and games, you said it yourself you love Kadri, he's not going to learn anything more from another stint with the Marlies, what have we got to lose? Another top 5 pick with the same cast of characters?

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01-27-2013, 03:55 PM
  #327
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Toronto boy who can play with a bit of better skill but his two-way game and aggressiveness is not near as Grabovski's at all.
I just went to look at a player comparison, and it appears he's basing his "Weiss is better" based on points... Something that fellow ALWAYS argues against doing.... go look at the +/- numbers he always talks about being important.... his assessment certainly isn't based on that.....

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01-27-2013, 03:56 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
We are the only franchise to hit 1 billion in hockey, I think we'll live.

Franchise value is relevant to a cap discussion how? Every team has the same cap.

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01-27-2013, 03:56 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Does limited capspace prehibit one from improving the team, have you thought about this? And the only way you get better is play the youth in important mins and games, you said it yourself you love Kadri, he's not going to learn anything more from another stint with the Marlies, what have we got to lose? Another top 5 pick with the same cast of characters?
We don't have a cap space issue.

/argument.

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01-27-2013, 03:58 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Toronto boy who can play with a bit of better skill but his two-way game and aggressiveness is not near as Grabovski's at all.
I wish some of you would get off of this supposed skill thing, Cicerelli never scored a skilled goal in his career or he scored very few. Beauty highlight reel skilled goals get you on TSN top 10, not wins. Weiss is a far better Center than anyone on the Leafs Grabo, Bozak and all.

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01-27-2013, 03:59 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
We don't have a cap space issue.

/argument.
We have a cap allocation issue.

/Logic prevails

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01-27-2013, 03:59 PM
  #332
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you're pretty much forgetting the elephant in the room. when things are not going well, Toronto is a hockey circus and not a desirable place to play in AT ALL. why would a FA put up with all the scrutiny and frustration from the fans and the media? it's the biggest hockey market, it comes with the territory.

we haven't signed ONE impact FA since the lockout pretty much and like half the nhl is from here... did you ever ask yourself why?

if we ever get back to prestige, we MAY have a chance at elite FAs

montreal is becoming the same as toronto when it comes to elite FAs. both of us are relegated to overpaying for B-level UFAs.
you'd think they'd have an advantage with elite french players, but no chance. both teams will have to return through glory with prudent drafting before FAs are even a factor..
Komisarek was highly desired as a free agent.

Montreal got Cammi, Gionta and Cole in recent seasons.

Both the Leafs and Habs just haven`t had a good enough nucleus in place to bring these guys and win.

Even if Toronto only attracts a B level guy like a Weiss or Roy to replace Grabo for at or around the same cap hit but gains whatever trade assets we`re still further ahead.

Usuaully there is also only ever 2-3 top free agents each year.

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01-27-2013, 04:00 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I wish some of you would get off of this supposed skill thing, Cicerelli never scored a skilled goal in his career or he scored very few. Beauty highlight reel skilled goals get you on TSN top 10, not wins. Weiss is a far better Center than anyone on the Leafs Grabo, Bozak and all.
I doubt the refs today would allow you to carve players and goalies with the stick in front of the net the way Ciccarelli did in his era.

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01-27-2013, 04:01 PM
  #334
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I doubt the refs today would allow you to carve players and goalies with the stick in front of the net the way Ciccarelli did in his era.
Yeah but he stinks he has no skill.

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01-27-2013, 04:03 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Or the idea that we trade all of our guys in their mid-late twenties (AKA: their prime) and draft unproven, developing youngsters, is going to attract impact free agents (AKA: guys in their prime) to come and play here.

LOL

"YEAH! Sign me up, Dave! I noticed you just dumped half of your roster so you could start the whole thing over, and develop a contender at a steady pace... Please, let me sign the best years of my career to your rebuild project!"

People just ..... Don't get it.
Look at all those star FA's Edmonton has collected while drafting those young guns...
Nobody in their right mind would sign in Edmonton for reasons other than winning. It's not a good example / comparison.

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01-27-2013, 04:03 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Grabo makes more then any of those players.

Bozie makes very little. If he wants a significant raise, adios but he won`t get much in return. Maybe a 2nd.

CMac should be traded but also won`t net much in return.

Connolly is already pretyy much out of the equation.

Nobody wants Komisarek at that cap hit and is still a potential buy out candidate.

Grabo will have a far higher value at the deadline then in the off-season. My bet is in the off-season there will be very little interest in him. If we keep Grabo we return with the exact same core next year. Why not be proactive and trade a player at a high value point instead of waiting for that asset to decline. If we`re out of it by the deadline why should we care if an AHLer plays on the 2nd or 3rd or 4th line center slot.

We also don`t have as much cap space as people like to think next year.<

This team has a core of Kessel, Lupul, JVR and Kadri at forward. On D we`ve got Phaneuf, Rielly and Gardiner.
Last year at the deadline Cmac was wanted for a first rounder, if it doesn't happen here this year, we can easily flip him for a prospect. Okay we Agree Tim is out of the equation and Bozie will be able to get us atleast a second rounder. If he continues to play this well we can give him around 2-3 mill deal. Komi is a potential buyout candidate I agree, but non trade-able? Let's see we said this about Lambo, Lebad, and Beuchemin as well.

We have around 8 mil capspace this year, we will have around 17 next year. We aren't looking to sign Wayne Gretzky, and this isn't a front loaded cap world anymore, the current CBA rectified the past. I still don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend.

Also I've been a big fan of Kadri but he has only played 5 games, that doesn't mean he is a core player, not yet until he shows he is able to do it consistently. The only core players we have and can rely on in this young team is Kessel, Phaneuf, Grabo and Lupul based on their performances alone. If you were to base it on potential then yes JVR, Kadri, Gardiner, Reimer and Rielly counts however that is not the case.

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01-27-2013, 04:03 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
We have a cap allocation issue.

/Logic prevails
LOL.

NO, We DON'T. When it starts to affect this team's ability to maneouver monetarily, or prevents them from doing something that will propel the club forward, and NOT just a hypothetical "sky is falling" situation, get back to me.

Learn what logic means, because you're using VERY little in this cap space/allocation argument.

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01-27-2013, 04:05 PM
  #338
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we have probably the best cap situation in the entire league. 2 core players signed (kessel and lupul), everyone else is a UFA this year or next, and the only remaining guys that make money (grabo, JML) can be bought out.

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01-27-2013, 04:06 PM
  #339
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Nobody in their right mind would sign in Edmonton for reasons other than winning. It's not a good example / comparison.
Sure it is.... the previous poster was saying once we draft all of these elite players, we'll be able to sign top flight free agents, because they'll all be impressed by our young, developing players..... how is it not a good example? There is no better example of a team who has done just that.

Or hey, how about those Islanders.... Tavares, Bailey, Neids, Okposo... FA's are flocking there too, right?

You go on the examples of what you have. My comparison was as valid as him giving the scenario in the first place.

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01-27-2013, 04:06 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Last year at the deadline Cmac was wanted for a first rounder, if it doesn't happen here this year, we can easily flip him for a prospect. Okay we Agree Tim is out of the equation and Bozie will be able to get us atleast a second rounder. If he continues to play this well we can give him around 2-3 mill deal. Komi is a potential buyout candidate I agree, but non trade-able? Let's see we said this about Lambo, Lebad, and Beuchemin as well.

We have around 8 mil capspace this year, we will have around 17 next year. We aren't looking to sign Wayne Gretzky, and this isn't a front loaded cap world anymore, the current CBA rectified the past. I still don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend.

Also I've been a big fan of Kadri but he has only played 5 games, that doesn't mean he is a core player, not yet until he shows he is able to do it consistently. The only core players we have and can rely on in this young team is Kessel, Phaneuf, Grabo and Lupul based on their performances alone. If you were to base it on potential then yes JVR, Kadri, Gardiner, Reimer and Rielly counts however that is not the case.
If Komi continues to play like he's done in first 3 games I think he can easily be dealt at the deadline. His cap hit isn't that bad for a team only needing him for a year or as insurance for a playoff run and his actual salary is much lower I believe.

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01-27-2013, 04:10 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Does limited capspace prehibit one from improving the team, have you thought about this? And the only way you get better is play the youth in important mins and games, you said it yourself you love Kadri, he's not going to learn anything more from another stint with the Marlies, what have we got to lose? Another top 5 pick with the same cast of characters?
Does it look like Grabovski being in the team is even limiting Kadri's time? At all!?
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Originally Posted by dirk41 View Post
Franchise value is relevant to a cap discussion how? Every team has the same cap.
Point is we can take the hit without any problem at all and we have damn well enough money to be okay with it.
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I wish some of you would get off of this supposed skill thing, Cicerelli never scored a skilled goal in his career or he scored very few. Beauty highlight reel skilled goals get you on TSN top 10, not wins. Weiss is a far better Center than anyone on the Leafs Grabo, Bozak and all.
You do realize I complimented Weiss on skill right, as in offensive skill set but his two-way game isn't as strong as you are complimenting him for that's for sure.

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01-27-2013, 04:13 PM
  #342
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If Komi continues to play like he's done in first 3 games I think he can easily be dealt at the deadline. His cap hit isn't that bad for a team only needing him for a year or as insurance for a playoff run and his actual salary is much lower I believe.
Glad to see someone else gets it!

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01-27-2013, 04:13 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
LOL.

NO, We DON'T. When it starts to affect this team's ability to maneouver monetarily, or prevents them from doing something that will propel the club forward, and NOT just a hypothetical "sky is falling" situation, get back to me.

Learn what logic means, because you're using VERY little in this cap space/allocation argument.
I don't even know if even you understood what you just wrote, Dion is a bad contract, Grabo is a bad contract, Komi is a bad contract, Army was a bad contract, Liles is arguably a bad contract. Certainly Kessel hasn't earned his 5.4 thus far.

Here's good allocation of capspace by a team, notice the difference.

Chara 6.9
Bergerson 5
Krejci 5.25
Lucic 4
Seidenburg 3.25

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01-27-2013, 04:16 PM
  #344
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No one has said what the cap money is for.

Fantasy and fiction isn't realism.

What star player can the Leafs not sign due to a cap problem?

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Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
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01-27-2013, 04:19 PM
  #345
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If Komi continues to play like he's done in first 3 games I think he can easily be dealt at the deadline. His cap hit isn't that bad for a team only needing him for a year or as insurance for a playoff run and his actual salary is much lower I believe.
If Komi plays like that I'd just keep him for the long haul. You do need vets to help along the kids and if he re-signs cheap you have a useful leader. Scorched earth isn't always the best solution. Dumping Antropov in hindsight weakened the center position and we still don't have someone to fill his spot. The second we got for him wasn't worth it.

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01-27-2013, 04:20 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I don't even know if even you understood what you just wrote, Dion is a bad contract, Grabo is a bad contract, Komi is a bad contract, Army was a bad contract, Liles is arguably a bad contract. Certainly Kessel hasn't earned his 5.4 thus far.

Here's good allocation of capspace by a team, notice the difference.

Chara 6.9
Bergerson 5
Krejci 5.25
Lucic 4
Seidenburg 3.25
Chara - Norris trophy winner
Bergeron- shell of his first line self but more of a second line enigma now
Krejci- Second line center who does everything
Seidenburg - offensive defensivemen who knows offense but lacks defensive accumen that he is capable of
Lucic - Rare breed of fighter heavy weight that has a good offensive skill set as well

SO those guys aren't overpaid aside from chara and Lucic!?

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01-27-2013, 04:20 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I don't even know if even you understood what you just wrote, Dion is a bad contract, Grabo is a bad contract, Komi is a bad contract, Army was a bad contract, Liles is arguably a bad contract. Certainly Kessel hasn't earned his 5.4 thus far.

Here's good allocation of capspace by a team, notice the difference.

Chara 6.9
Bergerson 5
Krejci 5.25
Lucic 4
Seidenburg 3.25
Didnt he just finish 6th in scoring but krejci is good value at 5.25 you are so blinded by your tank fantasy you cant even think straight.

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01-27-2013, 04:26 PM
  #348
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If Komi plays like that I'd just keep him for the long haul. You do need vets to help along the kids and if he re-signs cheap you have a useful leader. Scorched earth isn't always the best solution. Dumping Antropov in hindsight weakened the center position and we still don't have someone to fill his spot. The second we got for him wasn't worth it.
Yes I've thought of that line of reasoning myself. Watching Komi play so far just makes my hate for Ron Wilson flare up again

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01-27-2013, 04:31 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I don't even know if even you understood what you just wrote, Dion is a bad contract, Grabo is a bad contract, Komi is a bad contract, Army was a bad contract, Liles is arguably a bad contract. Certainly Kessel hasn't earned his 5.4 thus far.

Here's good allocation of capspace by a team, notice the difference.

Chara 6.9
Bergerson 5
Krejci 5.25
Lucic 4
Seidenburg 3.25
Others have pointed out the flaws in this, I don't have to.

They saved me the trouble..

Sure I understood what you wrote, but that Krejci/Bergeron thing kinda makes me question if you did.

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01-27-2013, 04:52 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Chara - Norris trophy winner
Bergeron- shell of his first line self but more of a second line enigma nowKrejci- Second line center who does everything
Seidenburg - offensive defensivemen who knows offense but lacks defensive accumen that he is capable of
Lucic - Rare breed of fighter heavy weight that has a good offensive skill set as well

SO those guys aren't overpaid aside from chara and Lucic!?
If you are a GM, Which would you prefer?
Phaneuf at 6.5? Chara - Norris trophy winner
Grabo 5.5? Bergeron- shell of his first line self but more of a second line enigma now
Grabo 5.5? Krejci- Second line center who does everything
Komisarek at 4.5? Seidenburg - offensive defensivemen who knows offense but lacks defensive accumen that he is capable of
Lupull at 5.25? Lucic - Rare breed of fighter heavy weight that has a good offensive skill set as well

BTW the bolded, did you actually just say that about one of the premere leaders and 2 way center's in the NHL the past 5 years?

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