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Old
01-24-2013, 07:55 PM
  #1
edmonton_ice
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New Arena?

With Edmonton looking to build new arena is it time for the Flames and/or The City of Calgary looking at building a new rink or does the Saddledome have another 10 years in it ?

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01-24-2013, 09:23 PM
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Like the race for the biggest building in the world, or buying the latest Snuggy product, people have no problem emptying their pockets for **** they don't need or use. But don't ask them to pay for social services now...

Why would Calgarians be any different?

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01-24-2013, 10:02 PM
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Stewie Griffin
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It easily has ten years of life in it - maybe more if they renovate again.

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01-25-2013, 06:33 PM
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Mike Jones
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If the Flames want to build a new place they should do it on their own dime. I live in Calgary and would be choked if any tax dollars were sent the way of a project like this.

The only way I would support tax dollars going in would be if it was either in the form of an interest bearing loan or part of an exchange for an ownership stake. I'd love to see the city own a part of the team. There must be city staff who know more about hockey then the current President, GM, etc.

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01-25-2013, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edmonton_ice View Post
With Edmonton looking to build new arena is it time for the Flames and/or The City of Calgary looking at building a new rink or does the Saddledome have another 10 years in it ?
Because the Saddledome was built about ten years before the big corporate box boom in arena construction. The ability to maximize the benefit of such a large corporate base is lacking at the 'Dome not to mention the roof has been the cause for driving certain large acts away.

So in short: a new arena would make a lot more money.

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01-25-2013, 11:00 PM
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I've heard rumours that it's in the plans. Ken King is/has ben waiting to see what happens in Edmonton before making his move. I wouldn't be surprised to see something in two years... (Wouldn't be built for another 7+ years imo.

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01-25-2013, 11:36 PM
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Guido Sarducci
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I want a new Mcmahon stadium first. I can't believe we are talking new Saddledome with a huge chunk of public money when what this city needs is a new football stadium.

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01-25-2013, 11:47 PM
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Stewie Griffin
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Football / hockey stadium?

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01-26-2013, 08:37 AM
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Mike Jones
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Originally Posted by Guido Sarducci View Post
I want a new Mcmahon stadium first. I can't believe we are talking new Saddledome with a huge chunk of public money when what this city needs is a new football stadium.
The city also needs firefighters, police, snow removal, etc. I'd say that tax dollars should pay for these services before they go to corporate welfare and making rich people even richer.

Again, unless the Flames want to turn over a percentage of their ownership to the city...


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01-26-2013, 11:18 AM
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They should build a new football stadium and nhl arena side by side some type of sports complex.

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01-26-2013, 12:44 PM
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MarkGio
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
The city also needs firefighters, police, snow removal, etc. I'd say that tax dollars should pay for these services before they go to corporate welfare and making rich people even richer.

Again, unless the Flames want to turn over a percentage of their ownership to the city...
I think most Edmontonians agree, but when your leaders ignore their constituents, who's really pulling the strings?

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01-26-2013, 02:48 PM
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I think most Edmontonians agree, but when your leaders ignore their constituents, who's really pulling the strings?
Calgary has an election in 2013 (Or did they move it to 2014?). Perfect time to hash this all out. We can vote for the people who don't want to send tax dollars to fund projects for private businesses like the Flames.

Or not...

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01-27-2013, 02:41 PM
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Feel The Heat
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
The city also needs firefighters, police, snow removal, etc. I'd say that tax dollars should pay for these services before they go to corporate welfare and making rich people even richer.

Again, unless the Flames want to turn over a percentage of their ownership to the city...

Any public money is an investment. Corporations that move here, Jobs created, Charities that benefit I could go on and on. Remember All these companies and employees pay taxes that you speak of. The Flames generate more money than any monies that would be used to help build a new arena.

Don't be so short sided.

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01-27-2013, 02:50 PM
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MarkGio
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Originally Posted by Feel The Heat View Post
Any public money is an investment. Corporations that move here, Jobs created, Charities that benefit I could go on and on. Remember All these companies and employees pay taxes that you speak of. The Flames generate more money than any monies that would be used to help build a new arena.

Don't be so short sided.
There's plenty of literature on the subject. Sports arenas haven't proven to benefit the local economy. Walmart + Ikea doesn't get public funds to build their "stadiums" and they create jobs and surrounding businesses. It's about elasticity, demand and competition. People are obsessed with sports teams and owners use the threat of taking the team elsewhere as leverage to gain subsidies and public funds.

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01-27-2013, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Guido Sarducci View Post
I want a new Mcmahon stadium first. I can't believe we are talking new Saddledome with a huge chunk of public money when what this city needs is a new football stadium.
Cfl football is soooooooo low on the totem pole. Way rather see the money put towards the flames.

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01-27-2013, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
There's plenty of literature on the subject. Sports arenas haven't proven to benefit the local economy. Walmart + Ikea doesn't get public funds to build their "stadiums" and they create jobs and surrounding businesses. It's about elasticity, demand and competition. People are obsessed with sports teams and owners use the threat of taking the team elsewhere as leverage to gain subsidies and public funds.
Eventually Stadium and franchises go hand in hand. Ask Winnipeg.
Ask business affected by the lockout for instance. Success off the ice can go hand in hand on the ice.
I understand health care, emergency services are way above professional sports and buildings. there are millions of dollars in taxes generated from sports franchises. People should be concerned with government waste in many other areas.
People need not to be short sided and look at the big picture.

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01-27-2013, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Feel The Heat View Post
Eventually Stadium and franchises go hand in hand. Ask Winnipeg.
Ask business affected by the lockout for instance. Success off the ice can go hand in hand on the ice.
I understand health care, emergency services are way above professional sports and buildings. there are millions of dollars in taxes generated from sports franchises. People should be concerned with government waste in many other areas.
People need not to be short sided and look at the big picture.
You're calling people short sighted, but I would suggest reading the literature.

Sports Franchise Game: Cities in Pursuit of Sports Franchises, Events, Stadiums, and Arenas by Kenneth L. Shropshire

Even if you want a lazy two minute read, just google it. I just googled "sports teams and the economy" and clicked on a link from the goldwater institute. here:
http://goldwaterinstitute.org/blog/d...conomic-growth

Maybe --> you <-- need to inform yourself on the big picture.

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01-27-2013, 04:33 PM
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WhereIsIt
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
You're calling people short sighted, but I would suggest reading the literature.

Sports Franchise Game: Cities in Pursuit of Sports Franchises, Events, Stadiums, and Arenas by Kenneth L. Shropshire

Even if you want a lazy two minute read, just google it. I just googled "sports teams and the economy" and clicked on a link from the goldwater institute. here:
http://goldwaterinstitute.org/blog/d...conomic-growth

Maybe --> you <-- need to inform yourself on the big picture.
Quote:
As an extensive 2008 review of the peer-reviewed economic studies published over the past 20 years concludes: "No matter what cities or geographical areas are examined, no matter what estimators are used, no matter what model specifications are used, and no matter what variables are used, articles published in peer reviewed economic journals contain almost no evidence that professional sports franchises and facilities have a measurable economic impact on the economy."
That seems like complete nonsense to me. Tell that to pub and bar owners around Calgary during the lockout.

Quote:
One of the main reasons sports teams and the facilities in which they play are not drivers of economic growth is because they don't create new economic activity. Instead, they displace other forms of economic activity.

For example, imagine you were going to spend money on a night out. You could spend it on an expensive dinner or you could spend it on tickets to a sporting event. But because you have a limited amount of money to spend, you wouldn't spend it on both.

This substitution of one type of spending for another is exactly what you see happening when you analyze the experience of cities with sports teams. Consumers spending more of their discretionary income on sports-related goods is offset by those same consumers spending less on other things. Thus, no net new economic activity results.
This is also nonsense. In the Flames case, most season ticket holders are very wealthy individuals who can drop upwards of 10K a year on tickets. Money that would likely be going towards their second home in Arizona, or vacations, or investments outside of Calgary... not on a night out at some restaurant.

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Another point economists make is that most of the profit generated by sports teams go to the players, owners, and shareholders of the team. Those individuals tend not to live in the area in which the team plays. Instead, the money is "exported" to be spent or invested elsewhere. This reduces or eliminates the "ripple effect" that sports teams have on the local economy.
Also doesn't apply to Calgary, as our owners are from Calgary and live in Calgary. Players also live in Calgary for at least half the year.

None of these points are so strong that they warrant the ridiculous conclusion that sports team have no measurable effect on the economy. Wouldn't have expecting anything more from an article from a conservative public policy thinktank like Goldwater though.

This is why I dropped out of my economics degree. Economists like to think they are so scientific yet their models ignore tons of real world factors. Arguments often build off existing conservative views instead of starting on neutral ground. There's a reason economics is still considered an "art" like sociology and political science and doesn't get categorized as a business or scientific faculties, at least at the U of C.

And before someone accuses me of being some hippie liberal, I'm a very moderate person. I would be reluctant to give a significant amount of public money to the very rich Calgary Flames owners for the new arena. I just think this article is ********, perfect example of useless economist blather being portrayed as fact.

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01-27-2013, 05:24 PM
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Feel The Heat
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
You're calling people short sighted, but I would suggest reading the literature.

Sports Franchise Game: Cities in Pursuit of Sports Franchises, Events, Stadiums, and Arenas by Kenneth L. Shropshire

Even if you want a lazy two minute read, just google it. I just googled "sports teams and the economy" and clicked on a link from the goldwater institute. here:
http://goldwaterinstitute.org/blog/d...conomic-growth

Maybe --> you <-- need to inform yourself on the big picture.
I'm quite informed thank you very much. I live in a world of reality where I see the every day effects of the Flames in our community. I see first hand the benefits of a sports franchises in general.
Don't believe every thing you read from every piece of literature or study you find. a lot of it is BS and will always be written to have it own spin to serve ones own needs..

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01-27-2013, 05:27 PM
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I Hate Chris Butler
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Cfl football is soooooooo low on the totem pole. Way rather see the money put towards the flames.
Are you from Canada? Just curious...

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01-27-2013, 05:30 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
You're calling people short sighted, but I would suggest reading the literature.

Sports Franchise Game: Cities in Pursuit of Sports Franchises, Events, Stadiums, and Arenas by Kenneth L. Shropshire

Even if you want a lazy two minute read, just google it. I just googled "sports teams and the economy" and clicked on a link from the goldwater institute. here:
http://goldwaterinstitute.org/blog/d...conomic-growth

Maybe --> you <-- need to inform yourself on the big picture.
Because thats a totally unbiased source...

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01-27-2013, 05:34 PM
  #22
MarkGio
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Originally Posted by Tim Erixons Dad View Post
That seems like complete nonsense to me. Tell that to pub and bar owners around Calgary during the lockout.



This is also nonsense. In the Flames case, most season ticket holders are very wealthy individuals who can drop upwards of 10K a year on tickets. Money that would likely be going towards their second home in Arizona, or vacations, or investments outside of Calgary... not on a night out at some restaurant.



Also doesn't apply to Calgary, as our owners are from Calgary and live in Calgary. Players also live in Calgary for at least half the year.

None of these points are so strong that they warrant the ridiculous conclusion that sports team have no measurable effect on the economy. Wouldn't have expecting anything more from an article from a conservative public policy thinktank like Goldwater though.

This is why I dropped out of my economics degree. Economists like to think they are so scientific yet their models ignore tons of real world factors. Arguments often build off existing conservative views instead of starting on neutral ground. There's a reason economics is still considered an "art" like sociology and political science and doesn't get categorized as a business or scientific faculties, at least at the U of C.

And before someone accuses me of being some hippie liberal, I'm a very moderate person. I would be reluctant to give a significant amount of public money to the very rich Calgary Flames owners for the new arena. I just think this article is ********, perfect example of useless economist blather being portrayed as fact.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but don't blame me if I side with professors over a drop-out, no offense.

Here's another link as well I just googled:

http://news.illinois.edu/news/04/1117stadiums.html

Anyways, I'm pretty sure "peer-reviewed" publications would've asked simple questions like is money going to a second home in Arizona. Just sayin'

And if we're going to question the system here and now, why not when it's working in our favour? If economists are saying there's economic benefit to putting an oil pipeline through a nature preserve, don't be like "See, told you it was a good idea. These economists know more than your average joe"

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01-27-2013, 05:37 PM
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Because thats a totally unbiased source...
I know, I know. That`s why I referenced the book as well. I added another link too trying to get some more opinion.

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01-27-2013, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Feel The Heat View Post
I'm quite informed thank you very much. I live in a world of reality where I see the every day effects of the Flames in our community. I see first hand the benefits of a sports franchises in general.
Don't believe every thing you read from every piece of literature or study you find. a lot of it is BS and will always be written to have it own spin to serve ones own needs..
Oh I see. And the rest of us live under a rock, eh? The 20yr olds at the pub spending money on game night wouldn't have spent money otherwise?

Hmmm, 20 yr old boys don't like the pub unless there's hockey?

And that comment about believing everything I read. You need to actually read SOMETHING before you criticize it eh.

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01-27-2013, 06:07 PM
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Oh I see. And the rest of us live under a rock, eh? The 20yr olds at the pub spending money on game night wouldn't have spent money otherwise?
Quote:
Hmmm, 20 yr old boys don't like the pub unless there's hockey?
And that comment about believing everything I read. You need to actually read SOMETHING before you criticize it eh.


Please feel free and educate yourself first hand and do your own research. You might surprise yourself at what you find.

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