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Peter Bondra, hockey hall of fame?

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:41 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
All right. I thought your pace was fast since you put the finnish poll up right after the Swedish.
Actually that Swedish poll is from several months ago, just got bumped the other day for whatever reason.

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01-26-2013, 12:58 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
Actually that Swedish poll is from several months ago, just got bumped the other day for whatever reason.
Ok then. I see You made the Slovak players also.

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01-26-2013, 05:55 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
And Henderson has no business being in the Hall either. By international play I'm also including his time in the Czech league for team play or the totality of his non NHL time in which he doesn't add enough to his resume to by a HHOF player IMO.
I'm not saying Bondra is a HHOFer, just that his international career is about as good as it could be, given his team.

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So even though you think that Plaffy accomplished more and was more skilled you would want Bondra on your team?
Yeah, Bondra was actually a heart and soul guy and relatively smart. Palffy's unfortunately dumb as a rock and rather inconsistent effort-wise. More squishy too, though I won't hold it against him.

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01-26-2013, 10:54 PM
  #154
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So even though you think that Plaffy accomplished more and was more skilled you would want Bondra on your team?
I find that weird as well.

Palffy was one of the game's 10-15 best per-game scorers basically every year for a decade straight. Bondra, in his best two seasons, was 13th-21st.

I realize Palffy wasn't intangibles-laden, but can such a gap in overall offensive skill really be offset by one guy having a better attitude?


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01-27-2013, 06:05 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I find that weird as well.

Palffy was one of the game's 10-15 best per-game scorers basically every year for a decade straight. Palffy, at his best, was 13th-21st.

I realize Palffy wasn't intangibles-laden, but can such a gap in overall offensive skill really be offset by one guy having a better attitude?
There wasn't really that large gap in skill - Palffy was clearly better passer and stickhandler, but Bondra was clearly better shooter and skater. The statistical gap comes in part from the different roles they played on their teams - Palffy was usually responsible for generating most overall offense on his teams, while Bondra had a clearly defined role as a sniper.

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01-27-2013, 11:29 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
There wasn't really that large gap in skill - Palffy was clearly better passer and stickhandler, but Bondra was clearly better shooter and skater. The statistical gap comes in part from the different roles they played on their teams - Palffy was usually responsible for generating most overall offense on his teams, while Bondra had a clearly defined role as a sniper.
If I am picking a team I am not a fan of either one of them for a variety of reasons. Would either one of these guys lay down and block a shot with 20 seconds left? These guys were decent point collectors and you leave it at that. No franchise ever built around them expecting to win. The trade deadline came and went several times before anyone snatched either one of these guys up hoping they would contribute to a run. I mean, look at how long it took someone to do this to Mogilny.

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01-27-2013, 11:51 AM
  #157
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Not because they were untouchable in their teams? Palffy was the same vital part in LA like Bure in Florida. LA offense was Palffy. Period. They trade him and they are done.
Bondra was Washington's Ovechkin before Ovechkin. He was a franchise player along with Kolzig. By your logic, no one is hoping Great8 would help a team contribute to a win.

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01-27-2013, 12:08 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Not because they were untouchable in their teams? Palffy was the same vital part in LA like Bure in Florida. LA offense was Palffy. Period. They trade him and they are done.
Bondra was Washington's Ovechkin before Ovechkin. He was a franchise player along with Kolzig. By your logic, no one is hoping Great8 would help a team contribute to a win.
I think you are stretching there, since Ovechkin is light years (or was) better player than Bondra ever was.

I mean, there is basically no competition. If Bure was clearly ahead of Bondra then OV is in another ballpark.

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01-27-2013, 12:39 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
If I am picking a team I am not a fan of either one of them for a variety of reasons. Would either one of these guys lay down and block a shot with 20 seconds left? These guys were decent point collectors and you leave it at that. No franchise ever built around them expecting to win. The trade deadline came and went several times before anyone snatched either one of these guys up hoping they would contribute to a run. I mean, look at how long it took someone to do this to Mogilny.
to be fair, washington kept holding out hope for the 1/2 punch of bondra and jagr on the RW to work. when they finally gave up and put bondra on the market, this was what they got from a legit contender with all-stars up and down the roster and arguably the closest that franchise has ever come to a cup-worthy roster, a later run to the finals notwithstanding:

February 18, 2004: Traded to Ottawa by Washington for Brooks Laich and Ottawa's 2nd round choice (later traded to Colorado - Colorado selected Chris Durand) in 2005 Entry Draft, February 18, 2004.

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01-27-2013, 12:48 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
There wasn't really that large gap in skill - Palffy was clearly better passer and stickhandler, but Bondra was clearly better shooter and skater. The statistical gap comes in part from the different roles they played on their teams - Palffy was usually responsible for generating most overall offense on his teams, while Bondra had a clearly defined role as a sniper.
But Palffy was more capable, and did generate more overall offense for his team, year after year.

He had a lot less help from linemates, too.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
If I am picking a team I am not a fan of either one of them for a variety of reasons. Would either one of these guys lay down and block a shot with 20 seconds left? These guys were decent point collectors and you leave it at that. No franchise ever built around them expecting to win. The trade deadline came and went several times before anyone snatched either one of these guys up hoping they would contribute to a run. I mean, look at how long it took someone to do this to Mogilny.
I don't mind calling them decent point collectors. Compared to all-time greats and hall of famers, that's what they are. But Palffy was a much better point collector.

And it's not like you just "collect a point" on a goal that was going to be scored with or without you. Palffy was making those goals happen. In a league where 3 goals typically meant a win, that's very important.

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01-27-2013, 01:01 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I think you are stretching there, since Ovechkin is light years (or was) better player than Bondra ever was.

I mean, there is basically no competition. If Bure was clearly ahead of Bondra then OV is in another ballpark.
I mean why they ment to their respective teams. I'm not comparing Bondra to OVechkin
Better example: noone trade for Iginla too (beter comparision in terms of career stage)

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01-27-2013, 01:28 PM
  #162
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Considering that goals are worth more than assists does that bring Bondra past Palffy in production?

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01-27-2013, 01:53 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Considering that goals are worth more than assists does that bring Bondra past Palffy in production?
Better ratio is 1 goal = 1,5 A or so...

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01-27-2013, 01:56 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Considering that goals are worth more than assists does that bring Bondra past Palffy in production?
Points mean more than goals. And Palffy was better at producing points.

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01-27-2013, 02:22 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
to be fair, washington kept holding out hope for the 1/2 punch of bondra and jagr on the RW to work. when they finally gave up and put bondra on the market, this was what they got from a legit contender with all-stars up and down the roster and arguably the closest that franchise has ever come to a cup-worthy roster, a later run to the finals notwithstanding:

February 18, 2004: Traded to Ottawa by Washington for Brooks Laich and Ottawa's 2nd round choice (later traded to Colorado - Colorado selected Chris Durand) in 2005 Entry Draft, February 18, 2004.
Well, that was sort of the point. Bondra had a poor playoff reputation. When he finally was well past his prime and a team like Ottawa was desperate to get anything that could help he ended up with this stat line in the 2004 playoffs:

7 games 0 goals 0 assists -4

This was a 7 game series against Toronto. All I am saying is not so much that other teams didn't trade for them but even that their names were never even mentioned. How often were the names of Bondra or Palffy even brought up when talking about helping a team make a deep playoff run?

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I don't mind calling them decent point collectors. Compared to all-time greats and hall of famers, that's what they are. But Palffy was a much better point collector.

And it's not like you just "collect a point" on a goal that was going to be scored with or without you. Palffy was making those goals happen. In a league where 3 goals typically meant a win, that's very important.
On a per game basis he was. Palffy just didn't/couldn't last as long as Bondra for some reason

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01-27-2013, 03:05 PM
  #166
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On a per game basis he was. Palffy just didn't/couldn't last as long as Bondra for some reason
I don't know what you mean, since they were both noteworthy products for a period spanning eleven years.

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01-27-2013, 03:21 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Not because they were untouchable in their teams? Palffy was the same vital part in LA like Bure in Florida. LA offense was Palffy. Period. They trade him and they are done.
Bondra was Washington's Ovechkin before Ovechkin. He was a franchise player along with Kolzig. By your logic, no one is hoping Great8 would help a team contribute to a win.
What?

Ovechkin won 2 Hart Trophies and 3 Lindsays. Bondra was never a top 3 RW in the league, not even once.

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01-27-2013, 03:54 PM
  #168
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I don't know what you mean, since they were both noteworthy products for a period spanning eleven years.
What I mean was that Bondra has the better longevity, for what it is worth in this comparison

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01-27-2013, 03:59 PM
  #169
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^^ He just used a poor example... I mean, e.g. Callahan's nowhere near a top-5 winger, yet you don't see teams trying to get him off Rangers for a playoff run. A player doesn't have to be a superstar for a team that's trying to contend to be unwilling to trade him...

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01-27-2013, 05:27 PM
  #170
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Well, that was sort of the point. Bondra had a poor playoff reputation. When he finally was well past his prime and a team like Ottawa was desperate to get anything that could help he ended up with this stat line in the 2004 playoffs:

7 games 0 goals 0 assists -4

This was a 7 game series against Toronto. All I am saying is not so much that other teams didn't trade for them but even that their names were never even mentioned. How often were the names of Bondra or Palffy even brought up when talking about helping a team make a deep playoff run?
my point is that bondra was never available as a deadline addition until the year he actually was traded.

and i agree with you: bondra was not a good playoff performer at all. but i don't think it's accurate to say that GMs wouldn't have taken a gamble on him as a ringer for the playoffs (like the sens in '04) if he'd been available. poor playoff record or not, i think many many GMs would have been forming a line to pick up a prime bondra to put them over the top. but he was never on the market.

as for palffy, it was me who originally said i'd take him over bondra if you put a gun to my head and i had to pick one of them for the HHOF. palffy only played four playoff series his entire career, all against detroit and colorado when they were juggernauts. two of those series were excellent, the other two he lost to the eventual champs.

first round of the '01 playoffs, he got four points on LA's six goals in back-to-back one goal wins to upset detroit (then disappears against colorado). in '02, he led the kings to within a game of upsetting the defending champs, 9 points and his team only scored 13 goals overall. but then again, he came up small in game seven after putting on a show for the first six games.

here's his playoff record:

2000

4 games, 2 points (both in the same game where they were blown out). his team is shutout in two games, palffy is on the ice for the only goal in game three, which was a 2-1 loss. detroit goes on to win the cup.


2001

round one: 6 games, 6 points. huge upset of detroit, with palffy and stumpel leading the way.

round two: 7 games, 2 points, both in the same 4-3 loss. completely disappears. felix potvin and a shaky game one by roy is the only reason this series wasn't a sweep. avs go on to win the cup.


2002

9 points in 7 games, all 9 points in the first 6 games. for those first 6 games, palffy is doing his best to redeem himself for the previous year's disappearing act and wasting a ridiculous performance by potvin. game 7 isn't palffy's finest moment, but on the other hand this is against saint patrick pitching a game 7 shutout in a series where he went 1.86 and .926.


which is all to say that palffy is not playoff hero, but even with only four series to his credit clearly above bondra as a playoff performer. all of the series where bondra is at or near PPG were high scoring series where he didn't make nearly the difference that palffy did in his two good series.

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01-27-2013, 05:32 PM
  #171
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my point is that bondra was never available as a deadline addition until the year he actually was traded.

and i agree with you: bondra was not a good playoff performer at all. but i don't think it's accurate to say that GMs wouldn't have taken a gamble on him as a ringer for the playoffs (like the sens in '04) if he'd been available. poor playoff record or not, i think many many GMs would have been forming a line to pick up a prime bondra to put them over the top. but he was never on the market.

as for palffy, it was me who originally said i'd take him over bondra if you put a gun to my head and i had to pick one of them for the HHOF. palffy only played four playoff series his entire career, all against detroit and colorado when they were juggernauts. two of those series were excellent, the other two he lost to the eventual champs.

first round of the '01 playoffs, he got four points on LA's six goals in back-to-back one goal wins to upset detroit (then disappears against colorado). in '02, he led the kings to within a game of upsetting the defending champs, 9 points and his team only scored 13 goals overall. but then again, he came up small in game seven after putting on a show for the first six games.

here's his playoff record:

2000

4 games, 2 points (both in the same game where they were blown out). his team is shutout in two games, palffy is on the ice for the only goal in game three, which was a 2-1 loss. detroit goes on to win the cup.


2001

round one: 6 games, 6 points. huge upset of detroit, with palffy and stumpel leading the way.

round two: 7 games, 2 points, both in the same 4-3 loss. completely disappears. felix potvin and a shaky game one by roy is the only reason this series wasn't a sweep. avs go on to win the cup.


2002

9 points in 7 games, all 9 points in the first 6 games. for those first 6 games, palffy is doing his best to redeem himself for the previous year's disappearing act and wasting a ridiculous performance by potvin. game 7 isn't palffy's finest moment, but on the other hand this is against saint patrick pitching a game 7 shutout in a series where he went 1.86 and .926.


which is all to say that palffy is not playoff hero, but even with only four series to his credit clearly above bondra as a playoff performer. all of the series where bondra is at or near PPG were high scoring series where he didn't make nearly the difference that palffy did in his two good series.
Agree with this in general but:

1) A lot of forwards disappeared against the Patrick Roy/Ray Bourque/Rob Blake/Adam Foote Avalanche in 2001.

2) Detroit didn't win the Cup in 2000; I'm not sure what you mixed up there.

Oh, and I wouldn't need a gun to my head to take Palffy over Bondra; I honestly think it's an easy choice.

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01-27-2013, 06:01 PM
  #172
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I would put him in. Sort of a simple game...skate fast, shoot hard, but he skated awful fast and shot awful hard.

Late bloomer still scores 500 in that era, I'd give him a look.

If trashy motorcycle sidecar like Glenn Anderson is in the hall, there's no good reason to keep a sports car like Bondra out.

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01-27-2013, 06:53 PM
  #173
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Agree with this in general but:

1) A lot of forwards disappeared against the Patrick Roy/Ray Bourque/Rob Blake/Adam Foote Avalanche in 2001.

2) Detroit didn't win the Cup in 2000; I'm not sure what you mixed up there.

Oh, and I wouldn't need a gun to my head to take Palffy over Bondra; I honestly think it's an easy choice.
beh, all those years when messier was on the canucks blur together for me. but yeah, glory years for your boys, no doubt.

and no, i don't need a gun to my head to go with palffy over bondra either... i would certainly need a gun to my head to induct either into the HHOF though.

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01-27-2013, 07:50 PM
  #174
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What I mean was that Bondra has the better longevity, for what it is worth in this comparison
his best PPG season outside of 92-02 was 0.65. So it's not like this really adds anything for him.

(oh, and I meant producers, not products, phone must have autocorrected me...)

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01-27-2013, 09:14 PM
  #175
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I would put him in. Sort of a simple game...skate fast, shoot hard, but he skated awful fast and shot awful hard.

Late bloomer still scores 500 in that era, I'd give him a look.

If trashy motorcycle sidecar like Glenn Anderson is in the hall, there's no good reason to keep a sports car like Bondra out.
You're going that route? Glenn Anderson was a "money" goal scorer who not only scored as many goals as Bondra but was an important part of a dynasty. I think there is a substantial difference in the careers of these two men.

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