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Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

View Poll Results: How long do you give Dan?
Fire him now 18 22.22%
15 games 33 40.74%
30 games 4 4.94%
Fire him if we fail in the play-offs 23 28.40%
Keep him till next year 3 3.70%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-27-2013, 08:25 PM
  #276
KIRK
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
That's actually a pretty good observation IMO (how player behavior changes in bad coaching situations because of persistently frustrating situations they perceive themselves to be stuck in). Maybe with Geno, the free flowing nature of the KHL resulted in culture shock when he came back... hopefully that's all it is for his part but the problem with games like this is it serves to reinforce Bylsma's system in his own mind. He probably looked at tonight and said "it's working again, back on track". I looked at it and said "we won despite the system, because we have great shoot-out talent and a goalie who played a great game".
Well, that possibility is a lot better than the alternative.

But, remember, he was playing for a guy who really was a hard *** with him in Paul Maurice. Not in a jerk kind of way. Rather, he expected excellence from Geno all over the ice, and he put Geno in a position to give him that. Bylsma's use for Geno begins and ends with offense.

By the way, I think you're right about how Bylsma is going to interpret tonight's game.

Anyway, did you see that too, not just a change, but that it really looked like he was going to go over the edge (again, not talking the 'pissed at the Flyers' type over the edge)?

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01-27-2013, 08:26 PM
  #277
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I'm not sure if its the system or the players but there are way to many turn overs up top in the offensive zone. Its coming right back at the Pens and getting shoved down their throats.

Stupid stuff too like bad drop passes and blind passes cross ice.

Is it me or are the Pens getting away from pucks in the corners and grinding *****es down?

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01-27-2013, 08:26 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
We were damn lucky he didn't score on that last shot which he had wide open. I agree 100% the Sens were not in good form tonight. But they had way more quality chances and open shots than we did and that's what bugs me most. That shouldn't be...
That, plus there were a lot of outlets there to spring odd man rushes where even a guy like Karlsson was off on the first pass. IMO, a big part of the difference defensively between tonight and Friday lied in the opposition's execution.

EDIT: CV, in all seriousness, can you elaborate on what you saw the Pens trying to do systemically with or without the puck, or was it pretty much just messy?

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01-27-2013, 08:30 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Well, that possibility is a lot better than the alternative.

But, remember, he was playing for a guy who really was a hard *** with him in Paul Maurice. Not in a jerk kind of way. Rather, he expected excellence from Geno all over the ice, and he put Geno in a position to give him that. Bylsma's use for Geno begins and ends with offense.
Yah but use how? Bylsma's game is "get it in deep and throw pucks back out / throw it at the net and look for garbage". There's no puck control in terms of smart passing, spacing and all the rest. A line with Geno and Neal should not have to resort to a dump-and-chase style game 80% of the time.

Quote:
By the way, I think you're right about how Bylsma is going to interpret tonight's game.

Anyway, did you see that too, not just a change, but that it really looked like he was going to go over the edge (again, not talking the 'pissed at the Flyers' type over the edge)?
You mean Geno right? I did see one shot of him where he looked angry / like his mind was somewhere else but who knows. Can only guess what he was thinking. I just notice a general change in disposition. Also I think there's an element of this: he is clearly a more dominant player when he is expected to be the #1 C on the team; I think it's in his DNA. He does change somewhat when Sid is in the lineup. Don't know how to remedy that short of getting Sid much better players, thus hopefully removing some defensive focus on Geno, or putting them together (which doesn't always work that well either).

I think it all goes back to coaching. A good coach would figure this **** out over the course of 4 years and get it solved.

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01-27-2013, 08:34 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Yah but use how? Bylsma's game is "get it in deep and throw pucks back out / throw it at the net and look for garbage". There's no puck control in terms of smart passing, spacing and all the rest. A line with Geno and Neal should not have to resort to a dump-and-chase style game 80% of the time.



You mean Geno right? I did see one shot of him where he looked angry / like his mind was somewhere else but who knows. Can only guess what he was thinking. I just notice a general change in disposition. Also I think there's an element of this: he is clearly a more dominant player when he is expected to be the #1 C on the team; I think it's in his DNA. He does change somewhat when Sid is in the lineup. Don't know how to remedy that short of getting Sid much better players, thus hopefully removing some defensive focus on Geno, or putting them together (which doesn't always work that well either).

I think it all goes back to coaching. A good coach would figure this **** out over the course of 4 years and get it solved.
Maybe the first bolded part is contributing to the frustration.

With the second, I couldn't agree more . . . from my perspective, you do it by keeping both of them involved in all facets of the game and chucking them in to exploit matchup advantages (last line change on home ice, the random shift on another line or together, rather than just rolling four lines again and again and again). There's 60 minutes in a game, plenty of time to keep both of them involved.

Oh, and the remedy is to get both of them two good wingers each . . . not even Bylsma could **** that up . . . I think.

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01-27-2013, 08:58 PM
  #281
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A chimp couldn't **** that up. As long as they were defensively responsible you could literally let them go out there and play pond hockey on the other side of the ice. Or at least, that's what it would probably look like.

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01-27-2013, 09:02 PM
  #282
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DB has his work cut out for him and he needs to start with Malkin. The turnovers and bad penalties from him are happening every game.

Neal played a piss poor game managing the puck as well and Kunitz had another bad game. At what point does Kunitz get held accountable for his play? Some vet needs to be made an example of and Kunitz is the guy.

I'm a big Kunny fan, but DB has to send a message.

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01-27-2013, 09:03 PM
  #283
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A chimp couldn't **** that up. As long as they were defensively responsible you could literally let them go out there and play pond hockey on the other side of the ice. Or at least, that's what it would probably look like.
That was my thinking.

Well, that and I've always wondered how in the **** any team would/could defend Sid and Geno where both of them had a proper second wheel and a proper third wheel. I just don't see how a team could defend another team where they send out a line with two good wingers centered by the best player in hockey and then send out another line after that with two good wingers centered by the best player in hockey.

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01-27-2013, 09:07 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
DB has his work cut out for him and he needs to start with Malkin. The turnovers and bad penalties from him are happening every game.

Neal played a piss poor game managing the puck as well and Kunitz had another bad game. At what point does Kunitz get held accountable for his play? Some vet needs to be made an example of and Kunitz is the guy.

I'm a big Kunny fan, but DB has to send a message.
Well the 1st 'message' he should send is to get Kunitz off the PP. He's there to retrieve pucks and get in front of the net. He's doing neither. With Neal on the point, there's almost as much chance of a shorty as a PP goal.

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01-27-2013, 09:07 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
DB has his work cut out for him and he needs to start with Malkin. The turnovers and bad penalties from him are happening every game.

Neal played a piss poor game managing the puck as well and Kunitz had another bad game. At what point does Kunitz get held accountable for his play? Some vet needs to be made an example of and Kunitz is the guy.

I'm a big Kunny fan, but DB has to send a message.
Jiggy, that one kind of has me worried. I think Malkin reeled it back in with an excellent third (with Glass) and the SO goal will give confidence. But, CV and I were discussing this: It literally looked like he was going to go off the deep end tonight (not the usual Geno can be emotional way either). Bylsma is in real danger of losing him. He'd better hope what now will be the Tanner Glass experiment works, because he could lose Malkin in the same way Therrien lost Sid four years ago. And, if that happens, it's just a matter of when Bylsma is done, not if. I mean, you've watched Malkin forever. Have you ever seen him like tonight? As I said, I think it got reeled in, but it's something that really bears watching. In a way, it may be more concerning than almost all of the other coaching issues.

Agreed about Kunitz.

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01-27-2013, 09:17 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Terrapin View Post
Well the 1st 'message' he should send is to get Kunitz off the PP. He's there to retrieve pucks and get in front of the net. He's doing neither. With Neal on the point, there's almost as much chance of a shorty as a PP goal.
I hated the idea of Neal on the point when I first heard it and I despise it even more now. He isn't Kovy.

You can't have a rover who isn't a great skater. It defies logic to put him there because he has a great shot.

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01-27-2013, 09:20 PM
  #287
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I hated the idea of Neal on the point when I first heard it and I despise it even more now. He isn't Kovy.

You can't have a rover who isn't a great skater. It defies logic to put him there because he has a great shot.
You could make Malkin a rover. He's better when he's moving, he can skate, and he can shoot.

Note: I said YOU could do that. Bylsma never would.

EDIT: Fun stuff yesterday watching the sharks PP. Permanent net presence. Second guy crashes as the shot is coming. And, all five guys are moving. I didn't realize that a PP was allowed to do stuff like that.

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01-27-2013, 09:20 PM
  #288
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Jiggy, that one kind of has me worried. I think Malkin reeled it back in with an excellent third (with Glass) and the SO goal will give confidence. But, CV and I were discussing this: It literally looked like he was going to go off the deep end tonight (not the usual Geno can be emotional way either). Bylsma is in real danger of losing him. He'd better hope what now will be the Tanner Glass experiment works, because he could lose Malkin in the same way Therrien lost Sid four years ago. And, if that happens, it's just a matter of when Bylsma is done, not if. I mean, you've watched Malkin forever. Have you ever seen him like tonight? As I said, I think it got reeled in, but it's something that really bears watching. In a way, it may be more concerning than almost all of the other coaching issues.

Agreed about Kunitz.
It's funny because I said to throw him up there and I was just joking, but he looked ok. I doubt it works for long though.

Who was even on the second line? I saw TK, Tangradi and Glass.

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01-27-2013, 09:22 PM
  #289
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You could make Malkin a rover. He's better when he's moving, he can skate, and he can shoot.

Note: I said YOU could do that. Bylsma never would.
The solution is in WBS.

Once he is on this PP, it will be lethal.

Until then,... Can Glass play point?

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01-27-2013, 09:26 PM
  #290
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It's funny because I said to throw him up there and I was just joking, but he looked ok. I doubt it works for long though.

Who was even on the second line? I saw TK, Tangradi and Glass.
TK was there the first and second, except for two shifts that Tangradi got. Glass had the entire third, and I actually thought he looked pretty good with Geno and Neal. Instinctively knew his role and when/how to support. Maybe he gives you what Talbot gives you. Definitely seemed like Geno and Neal noticed (trusted) the third winger in the third period, no?

BTW, are you seeing a demeanor change with Geno? He's just never smiling, and, as I said, he looked like he might swing a stick at someone in the second. Is Bylsma in jeopardy of losing him?

I've asked this before: When you feel like you're never in position to make plays and have the expectation to make them anyway, there's an instinct to force things, to try to do too much. Always been Geno's problem. But, I've never seen him that completely out of control. Maybe someone talked to him during intermission or maybe having Glass made a difference, but I'm going to be watching this. If Bylsma loses Malkin (in the way IMO that Therrien lost Sid), then the X's and O's and everything else mean nothing.

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01-27-2013, 09:28 PM
  #291
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How many times did someone go down the wing by himself against four other player and backhand a weak shot on goal? And then our forecheck ****ing sucks. Bylsma always preached about getting the puck out of our zone in six second, but now it's the other team constantly getting the puck of out theirs in six and we never have any constant pressure. I never knew an offense with Malkin and Crosby could suck this bad, but it does.

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01-27-2013, 09:28 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The solution is in WBS.

Once he is on this PP, it will be lethal.

Until then,... Can Glass play point?
I can't imagine that the solution he could be any worse defensively than Lovejoy right now.

Can Glass play the point? Well, I can't imagine that he could be any worse there than Letang right now.

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01-28-2013, 12:14 AM
  #293
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CV, here's one new thing that really concerns me now:

In December 2008, when the wheels started to come off for Therrien, you saw it with Sid. A lack of control (spears to the nuts, etc), really reckless play, barking at people, etc. That's when I thought that Therrien was in real jeopardy of losing Sid. By that, I don't mean Sid stopped giving a ****. I mean, he wasn't buying. System and linemates put him at a competitive disadvantage too much, and things just spiraled out of control.

I was reminded of that watching Geno the first two periods. I've seen him emotional. I've seen him frustrated. I've seen him reckless. But, he really looked like he was ready to go over the edge. Thankfully, he reeled it back in for the third (it looked like Glass actually helped stabilize things a little in that regard), and the SO winner probably helped. That said, it's a situation that bears watching. Dave King always said that he liked Malkin because he always was smiling, and you could tell something was wrong when he wasn't. Malkin isn't smiling right now. Maybe it's nothing. Then again, people said the same thing about Sid's frustrations bubbling a little over four years ago.
Honest to God KIRK, when it comes to Malkin, you see what you want to see. You're convinced that Bylsma has run his course with this team and paranoid that anything - in this case Byslma's system - will cause Malkin not to re-sign, so you shoehorn events to fit your narrative.

Now Malkin being fired up and yapping at the refs is a sign? Never mind that this has been a part of Malkin's NHL repertoire for years, he went ballistic just two months ago in the KHL (2:10 on):



That's the angriest smile I've ever seen.

I appreciate different perspectives, but you've gotta dial it down with this. I'm half-expecting you to post a theory after the next game placing Bylsma in Dallas behind a grassy knoll in '63.

Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left.

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01-28-2013, 12:29 AM
  #294
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Nobody loves Geno more than KIRK. I think you nailed it with him being a bit paranoid about losing him, but that will happen until that guy signs a long-term contract in Pittsburgh. Then we can all go to Rossi and tell him to kiss our ass.

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01-28-2013, 12:39 AM
  #295
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post

EDIT: Fun stuff yesterday watching the sharks PP. Permanent net presence. Second guy crashes as the shot is coming. And, all five guys are moving. I didn't realize that a PP was allowed to do stuff like that.
It makes me so angry when I watch another team's PP execute so perfectly, then switch over to the Pens game and see our team look abysmal on our PP opportunities.

With the personnel we have, there is no excuse for looking this damn stupid with the man advantage.

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01-28-2013, 12:58 AM
  #296
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Nobody loves Geno more than KIRK. I think you nailed it with him being a bit paranoid about losing him, but that will happen until that guy signs a long-term contract in Pittsburgh. Then we can all go to Rossi and tell him to kiss our ass.
I could understand if Malkin were able to sign a contract and was holding off...but the guy's not even allowed to negotiate yet. Last time his contract was up, he re-signed on the very first day the CBA would allow. There's nothing to suggest that this time will be any different.

Just seems like people are grasping at straws for things to worry about.

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01-28-2013, 01:30 AM
  #297
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I could understand if Malkin were able to sign a contract and was holding off...but the guy's not even allowed to negotiate yet. Last time his contract was up, he re-signed on the very first day the CBA would allow. There's nothing to suggest that this time will be any different.

Just seems like people are grasping at straws for things to worry about.
He just had an MVP season where he also outscored everyone else in the League, and is again looked at as the world's best player. He did this under the worst coach in the League.

I believe that if he leaves Pittsburgh, it will be because he's not allowed to kill penalties.

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01-28-2013, 01:32 AM
  #298
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01-28-2013, 09:29 AM
  #299
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Nobody loves Geno more than KIRK. I think you nailed it with him being a bit paranoid about losing him, but that will happen until that guy signs a long-term contract in Pittsburgh. Then we can all go to Rossi and tell him to kiss our ass.
1. You're **** right I'm paranoid. Another one and done, no changes to the staff, if YOU were Geno, would you be in a rush to sign an extension this summer with, for example, your buddy Kovalchuk saying 'wouldn't it be fun if we played together'? That's why I'm paranoid. I just think this 'done deal, no question' attitude around here is incredibly myopic (but typical).

2. I'm not thrilled with the guy's demeanor (CV seemed to agree that it was worth watching). But, hey, Rowdy says all is well, so all is well.

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He just had an MVP season where he also outscored everyone else in the League, and is again looked at as the world's best player. He did this under the worst coach in the League.

I believe that if he leaves Pittsburgh, it will be because he's not allowed to kill penalties.
Appreciated attempt at sarcasm notwithstanding, I think it will have a little more to do with how the Pens as a team fare this year. Another one and done, no changes . . . guy wants to win another cup badly.

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01-28-2013, 09:39 AM
  #300
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Well the new Penguin powerplay lasted about 2 games. Teams have adjusted to pressure our pointmen, Neal who is a forward and Kris Letang-who clearly cannot handle the pressures of being a powerplay qb from the backend-and they have neutralized the "rover" system.

I cannot articulate more strongly how dissapointed I am in Kris Letang's play this year. I know the season is young, but 10% of the season has been played. Letang should not be on the powerplay, under any circumstance. He cannot hold the point, he does not slow the play down and he cannot think the game at a nhl level. Letang's play Sunday in all three zones was horrendous.

I understand the reason that our powerplay was either Gonchar/Whitney/Gogo.

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