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P.K. Subban Thread IX: 'Try to make this one last longer than a day' Edition

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01-27-2013, 08:33 PM
  #626
Prendan Brust
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I'm confident Subban will sign, he wants to play here and I believe the management knows we can't afford to lose him, not unless we get a comparable player in return, which would be unlikely if he's traded.

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01-27-2013, 08:38 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I agree, but it's hard to interpret that, it sounds something like this:

"We know your client is worth 4.5 million, but we want to pay him 2.55 million anyway."

???
He's worth 4.5 mil if there's a few UFA years included in the contract.

2 RFA years are not worth 4.5 mil per.

Again.. compare to del zotto's contract. That's fairly comparable.

Comparing a 5-6 year deal to a 2 year bridge contract is not a valid comparison.

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01-27-2013, 08:41 PM
  #628
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all I know is that we are 3-1 with 3 straight wins and Markov is playing great. PK are meeting monday and he doesn t have any bargaining power. he can try and get a little more but he should be signing soon

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01-27-2013, 08:42 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by Hockey Team View Post
He's worth 4.5 mil if there's a few UFA years included in the contract.

2 RFA years are not worth 4.5 mil per.

Again.. compare to del zotto's contract. That's fairly comparable.

Comparing a 5-6 year deal to a 2 year bridge contract is not a valid comparison.
It has been shown a few times that it is not.

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01-27-2013, 08:49 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Hockey Team View Post
He's worth 4.5 mil if there's a few UFA years included in the contract.

2 RFA years are not worth 4.5 mil per.

Again.. compare to del zotto's contract. That's fairly comparable.

Comparing a 5-6 year deal to a 2 year bridge contract is not a valid comparison.
Del Zotto is not at all comparable. Here are some stats

MDZ started in the O-Zone 51.3% of the time and finished his shifts in the O-Zone 49.2%. Subban started in the O-Zone 46.3% and finished in the O-Zone 50.0%.

The average Corsi of Subban's opponents was 1.266, for MDZ it's only 0.211

Subban's Relative Corsi is 6.3, MDZ it's -1.1

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01-27-2013, 08:52 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Hockey Team View Post
He's worth 4.5 mil if there's a few UFA years included in the contract.

2 RFA years are not worth 4.5 mil per.

Again.. compare to del zotto's contract. That's fairly comparable.

Comparing a 5-6 year deal to a 2 year bridge contract is not a valid comparison.
Right, but those players are comparable players who got 4-6 year contracts. They were rewarded for good play.

Here's the thing, for a player, a 6-year contract means economic security. The player gives up earning potential for security, a smart tradeoff.

The team asks Subban to play 24 minutes in all situations, to block shots, to be an agitator, etc. He knows that he is durable, but with the way the team asks him to play he can be an injury or two away from being crippled at any point, from which he would lose 10s of millions of dollars. Given the role he's being asked to play, he wants to mitigate his risk by getting economic security. 6 years @ 4.5 million per is hardly Rick Dipietro territory.

For the Habs, at the same time, if they don't pay Subban now, by your own logic they will have to pay him substantially more in 2 years. You say that UFA years are worth far, far more than RFA years. And you're partly right, Ryan Suter just got 7 million/year on the UFA market, and he is very similar to Subban. Why have cap hits of 2.5, 2.5, 2.5, 2.5, 7, 7, 7, 7 when you can have 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75. The latter seems like a completely preferable option.

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01-27-2013, 08:52 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by habsrule22 View Post
all I know is that we are 3-1 with 3 straight wins and Markov is playing great. PK are meeting monday and he doesn t have any bargaining power. he can try and get a little more but he should be signing soon
Your right he doesn't have a lot of bargaining power right now, I just hope you don't expect him to take a home town discount when he's approaching UFA and he has all the bargaining power.

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01-27-2013, 08:56 PM
  #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I agree, but it's hard to interpret that, it sounds something like this:

"We know your client is worth 4.5 million, but we want to pay him 2.55 million anyway."

???
Please read post #612

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01-27-2013, 08:58 PM
  #634
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Please read post #612
Please read post #633 :-)

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01-27-2013, 08:58 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Right, but those players are comparable players who got 4-6 year contracts. They were rewarded for good play.

Here's the thing, for a player, a 6-year contract means economic security. The player gives up earning potential for security, a smart tradeoff.

The team asks Subban to play 24 minutes in all situations, to block shots, to be an agitator, etc. He knows that he is durable, but with the way the team asks him to play he can be an injury or two away from being crippled at any point, from which he would lose 10s of millions of dollars. Given the role he's being asked to play, he wants to mitigate his risk by getting economic security. 6 years @ 4.5 million per is hardly Rick Dipietro territory.

For the Habs, at the same time, if they don't pay Subban now, by your own logic they will have to pay him substantially more in 2 years. You say that UFA years are worth far, far more than RFA years. And you're partly right, Ryan Suter just got 7 million/year on the UFA market, and he is very similar to Subban. Why have cap hits of 2.5, 2.5, 2.5, 2.5, 7, 7, 7, 7 when you can have 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75. The latter seems like a completely preferable option.
I agree completely, but I could accept only offering only 2 years if it was at a reasonable price (Say 3.5 - 4.0). But MB offer is basically telling Subban he's gone squeeze him for every dollar he can. That's unacceptable.

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01-27-2013, 09:02 PM
  #636
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I agree completely, but I could accept only offering only 2 years if it was at a reasonable price (Say 3.5 - 4.0). But MB offer is basically telling Subban he's gone squeeze him for every dollar he can. That's unacceptable.
You do understand negotiations, right.

When one side is willing to compromise, the other tends to as well.

Bergevin sticking to his rumored initial offer is an indication that Subban is sticking to his initial offer as well.

The blame Bergevin only routine is tiring.

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Old
01-27-2013, 09:03 PM
  #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Right, but those players are comparable players who got 4-6 year contracts. They were rewarded for good play.

Here's the thing, for a player, a 6-year contract means economic security. The player gives up earning potential for security, a smart tradeoff.

The team asks Subban to play 24 minutes in all situations, to block shots, to be an agitator, etc. He knows that he is durable, but with the way the team asks him to play he can be an injury or two away from being crippled at any point, from which he would lose 10s of millions of dollars. Given the role he's being asked to play, he wants to mitigate his risk by getting economic security. 6 years @ 4.5 million per is hardly Rick Dipietro territory.

For the Habs, at the same time, if they don't pay Subban now, by your own logic they will have to pay him substantially more in 2 years. You say that UFA years are worth far, far more than RFA years. And you're partly right, Ryan Suter just got 7 million/year on the UFA market, and he is very similar to Subban. Why have cap hits of 2.5, 2.5, 2.5, 2.5, 7, 7, 7, 7 when you can have 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75, 4.75. The latter seems like a completely preferable option.
Well I don't know why the habs don't want to give a long term contract right now. But the fact is RFA years are worth less then UFA years.

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01-27-2013, 09:04 PM
  #638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You do understand negotiations, right.

When one side is willing to compromise, the other tends to as well.

Bergevin sticking to his rumored initial offer is an indication that Subban is sticking to his initial offer as well.

The blame Bergevin only routine is tiring.
What's wrong with recognizing that Subban is an asset to the team, treating him as such, and offering him a good first offer in good faith?

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01-27-2013, 09:09 PM
  #639
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Holy hell, Luke Schenn is on a 5 years / 4,5M year contract?! Did I read that right?

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01-27-2013, 09:14 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You do understand negotiations, right.

When one side is willing to compromise, the other tends to as well.

Bergevin sticking to his rumored initial offer is an indication that Subban is sticking to his initial offer as well.

The blame Bergevin only routine is tiring.
Even if that is true doesn't explain why he would come in at such a low number (MDZ couldn't even have been used as a comparable back then). If your idea of negotiating is to maximize your side then fine. But in a few years Subban the tables will be turned and Subban will have all the power and he'll either take us to the cleaners or leave. It's lose lose any way you slice it.

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01-27-2013, 09:14 PM
  #641
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This has played out horribly for both sides. If Bergevin gives in, everyone will know they can get their way in future negotiations. If he doesn't give in, he will be hated. If Subban gives in, he will be underpaid and probably frustrated.

The only "out" option where everyone saves face is if Subban asks for a trade and gets paid at his future destination and Bergs gets comparable asset in return.

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01-27-2013, 09:19 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by Frankenheimer View Post
This has played out horribly for both sides. If Bergevin gives in, everyone will know they can get their way in future negotiations. If he doesn't give in, he will be hated. If Subban gives in, he will be underpaid and probably frustrated.

The only "out" option where everyone saves face is if Subban asks for a trade and gets paid at his future destination and Bergs gets comparable asset in return.
Bergevin has put himself in a lose-lose situation. Best case scenario is that a team offer sheets Subban, we match and Subban lives up to the overpayment.

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01-27-2013, 09:23 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Bergevin has put himself in a lose-lose situation. Best case scenario is that a team offer sheets Subban, we match and Subban lives up to the overpayment.
Best case scenario we win the Stanley Cup without Subban.

At this point, Subban should take the offer or see you next year buddy !

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01-27-2013, 09:26 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by Mario Lemieux fan 66 View Post
Best case scenario we win the Stanley Cup without Subban.
Best case scenario: I win the powerball jackpot, invest the money very well into a great venture capital and real estate empire, marry a supermodel, have 4 kids and win the nobel prizes in physics, literature, and peace.

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01-27-2013, 09:26 PM
  #645
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My under standing is tommorow pk will either accept the bridge or ask to be traded

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01-27-2013, 09:28 PM
  #646
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Markov is playing 30 minutes a night. We need Subban, even with Markov.

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01-27-2013, 09:31 PM
  #647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankenheimer View Post
This has played out horribly for both sides. If Bergevin gives in, everyone will know they can get their way in future negotiations. If he doesn't give in, he will be hated. If Subban gives in, he will be underpaid and probably frustrated.

The only "out" option where everyone saves face is if Subban asks for a trade and gets paid at his future destination and Bergs gets comparable asset in return.
I think a 2 years 4 million $ per year contract would allow everyone to save face.

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01-27-2013, 09:35 PM
  #648
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A wise man once told me that there are 3 "H" s never to fall in love with
Hookers
Horses (as in race horses)
and Hockey players
They'll all break your heart

Bergevin has gotten a lot of heat around here for not caving to Subban's demands or for tendering such a low-ball offer.
The only true fact that we can count on and do not need input from rumour mongers and "insiders" is that it takes 2 to tango.
Both Bergevin AND Subban share a part in this fiasco, to think otherwise is just foolish.

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01-27-2013, 09:39 PM
  #649
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Bergevin should stick to his guns and not allow Subban to make himself bigger than the franchise. Its a known fact that every player who has come out of a ELC has signed the "bridge" contract (ex. Pleks, Gorges, Paciorettyand Price). If he signs Subban long term than that sets a new standard and imagine what Desharnais or Gallagher or Galchenyuk will demand when its time for them to sign out of their ELC.

The way I see it Subban should except the contract, because he's not getting anything sitting at home and his status will stay the same. Come in show that you really do want to be part of this team and a Hab. Play your ass off, show the new management team your worth the money and who's to say Bergevin doesnt extend him this summer like he did Pacioretty. It seems as though Bergevin prefers to sign players before their contract ends, with Price and Subban he had no choice.

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01-27-2013, 09:45 PM
  #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Team View Post
He's worth 4.5 mil if there's a few UFA years included in the contract.

2 RFA years are not worth 4.5 mil per.

Again.. compare to del zotto's contract. That's fairly comparable.

Comparing a 5-6 year deal to a 2 year bridge contract is not a valid comparison.
Would you trade Subban for MDZ straight up? Would you be happy with that deal?

Neither would I.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingRoy33 View Post
Bergevin should stick to his guns and not allow Subban to make himself bigger than the franchise.
How is asking for what he's worth making him bigger than the franchise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingRoy33 View Post
Its a known fact that every player who has come out of a ELC has signed the "bridge" contract (ex. Pleks, Gorges, Paciorettyand Price). If he signs Subban long term than that sets a new standard and imagine what Desharnais or Gallagher or Galchenyuk will demand when its time for them to sign out of their ELC.
PK has come out and said he'd accept the bridge. It's not the term, its the money. And we are lowballing him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingRoy33 View Post
The way I see it Subban should except the contract, because he's not getting anything sitting at home and his status will stay the same. Come in show that you really do want to be part of this team and a Hab. Play your ass off, show the new management team your worth the money and who's to say Bergevin doesnt extend him this summer like he did Pacioretty. It seems as though Bergevin prefers to sign players before their contract ends, with Price and Subban he had no choice.
So... if they offered him 10 bucks to play for the year, should he accept? Should he accept 500k? 1 million? At what point does it become about a fair wage vs "putting yourself ahead of the team?"

The club is being absolutely stupid with its offers. We are lowballing a player who we are counting on to head up our defense for the next decade. You want to get upset, get upset with MB. He's the dumbass.

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