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Old
01-27-2013, 10:33 AM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Your hockey code isn't everyone elses TFC.

I don't have to agree with you on everything and don't on most things, clean hits are not punk hockey. If he labels Toews tomorrow they will show up in spades to beat him whether or not he wants to go. Same thing that happened to Stuart, so all you want is his gloves to fall off and have him take a beating. I just doubt that would get you off his back.
I don't expect people to disagree with me. but you get off on the wrong foot when you say BS like I'll criticize Kronwall either way.
As a skilled defenseman, I like Kronwall. I think offensive tools and skating are top notch. I think his defense is probably a bit above average.

Do you see me ripping on Kronwall for being a horrid defenseman or a bad passer?
Nope. The only major criticism I have of Kronwall is that he hits and runs. He's a coward.





Quote:
It isn't like he operates with a different code when other teams hit the Wings. You just don't like the way he chooses to play the game or the Wings for the most part. That is fine but I see no double standard from Kronwall himself.
Kronwall plays a form of punk hockey that you see no problem with, That's fine. You're entitled to like punk hockey if you want.

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01-27-2013, 10:40 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Townsend Beasley View Post
Without seeing the video, it just sounds like kronwall and the refs are doing what theyre paid to do.
Kronwall hides after every major hit.
You know how you know this without video or remembering? You consider Zero fighting majors and then use your head.

Here's just a mild example of Kronwall turtling against big bad Corey Potter.


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01-27-2013, 11:57 AM
  #153
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I think if the league hasn't shifted so much to wanting to fight after every single above average hit there wouldn't be so much talk about it. Fights during the 90's actually used to mean something, these days people are fighting just because they get touched.

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01-27-2013, 12:29 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Exactly.
And Stuart had the guts to stand up for himself. The Sharks got a PP out of it -- which they should. Stuart got to deliver his hit -- like he should. And the Avs got to defend their star -- like they should.

That's hockey.

Wings fans have become so accustomed to defending the gutless antics of Kronwall that they can't see this particular forest for the trees.
This has nothing to do with Kronner for me. I've been watching this forest of trees longer than you have, muffin.

There was once a decent amount of respect for the art of checking-- especially when a player is in play (with the puck, threatening to the offensive zone). I remember Datsyuk getting nailed once, and he got up, smiled (yeah, you got me) and skated away.

I'm not sure when it started to change, but coaches probably started yelling in the tough guys' ears about standing up for their teammates. Dirty hits and headhunting? Yes, I'm all for it, but I really draw the line at legal hits to make a hockey play.

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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I think if the league hasn't shifted so much to wanting to fight after every single above average hit there wouldn't be so much talk about it. Fights during the 90's actually used to mean something, these days people are fighting just because they get touched.

What CB is referring to, about protecting the likes of Yzerman, etc., was the goon crap that evolved in the late 70s and 80s. Dave Schultz using his stick to whack a player on a breakaway over the head (helmetless in those days) is a legit reason to go after him. Trying to fight someone who throws a good hip check or open ice hit is not, imo.

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01-27-2013, 01:20 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Kronwall hides after every major hit.
You know how you know this without video or remembering? You consider Zero fighting majors and then use your head.

Here's just a mild example of Kronwall turtling against big bad Corey Potter.

I can kind of see both sides in this hit cb. He sees potter coming and puts a shoulder into him, then potter goes over top of kronwall and puts him down...from there, i don't know what you can expect him to do.

Any more clear videos you can post? If he does it as often as you say he does, they shouldnt be too hard to find.

Also, i must note that detroit gets a 4 minute powerplay because potter tries to beat him down.

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01-27-2013, 01:39 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I think if the league hasn't shifted so much to wanting to fight after every single above average hit there wouldn't be so much talk about it. Fights during the 90's actually used to mean something, these days people are fighting just because they get touched.
Biggest myth in hockey today.
Announcers and fans who cry and moan about this are wasting their tissues, because it's not true.

Hard hits have ALWAYS resulted in attention from tough guys,

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01-27-2013, 02:07 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
This has nothing to do with Kronner for me. I've been watching this forest of trees longer than you have, muffin.

There was once a decent amount of respect for the art of checking-- especially when a player is in play (with the puck, threatening to the offensive zone). I remember Datsyuk getting nailed once, and he got up, smiled (yeah, you got me) and skated away.

I'm not sure when it started to change, but coaches probably started yelling in the tough guys' ears about standing up for their teammates. Dirty hits and headhunting? Yes, I'm all for it, but I really draw the line at legal hits to make a hockey play.
So I'm sure you remember that when anyone touched Yzerman, Orr, Lafleur, Gretzky or Lemieux, they were going to get the attention of Probert, Wensink, Lupien, Semenko or Caufield.

Clean hit. Dirty hit. Legal. illegal. It hardly matters. When someone hits a vulnerable teammate to hurt them,.. if you have any kind of spine, you jump in -- especially in a regular season game.





Quote:
What CB is referring to, about protecting the likes of Yzerman, etc., was the goon crap that evolved in the late 70s and 80s. Dave Schultz using his stick to whack a player on a breakaway over the head (helmetless in those days) is a legit reason to go after him. Trying to fight someone who throws a good hip check or open ice hit is not, imo
Go back and watch Konstantinov's "fights." on youtube.
Nearly everyone was started by a hit. Most of them were completely clean.

There's a code -- that goes beyond hockey. If you want to hurt people, you better be prepared to stand up for yourself when someone returns the favor.

We've let chicken players like Kronwall go around hurting guys without having to be accountable.

Go back to the 90s, 80s and 70s... and tell me how many players went around hitting guys that hard without backing it up?

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01-27-2013, 02:10 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Biggest myth in hockey today.
Announcers and fans who cry and moan about this are wasting their tissues, because it's not true.

Hard hits have ALWAYS resulted in attention from tough guys,
Right, but it's more than just the hard hits, even the routine hits are turning into meaningless fights.

The fight with Stuart I don't mind, it's good to see that. But more times than not it's silliness.

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01-27-2013, 02:14 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Right, but it's more than just the hard hits, even the routine hits are turning into meaningless fights.

The fight with Stuart I don't mind, it's good to see that. But more times than not it's silliness.
The only fight in hockey that bothers me is the one that happens on the first shift of the game. The "let's give them a show" fight.

Fights that take place because of on-ice grievances don't bother me at all. It might just be someone taking offense to trash talk. Whatever. I'm cool with that.

I don't want to see a return to 70s and early 80s fighting. But we've taken it way too far.

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01-27-2013, 02:21 PM
  #160
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I don't think you should have to answer for throwing something that's extremely legal in hockey--- a check. When people start thinking twice about checking someone hard (because face it, these are strong men and weak checks aren't going to accomplish anything), that changes the nature of the game. I can't get behind that.

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01-27-2013, 02:59 PM
  #161
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Landeskog says the hit was clean:
http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2013...ndeskog/12376/

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01-27-2013, 03:25 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I don't think you should have to answer for throwing something that's extremely legal in hockey--- a check. When people start thinking twice about checking someone hard (because face it, these are strong men and weak checks aren't going to accomplish anything), that changes the nature of the game. I can't get behind that.
Don't hit to hurt people if you're afraid to get punched in the face.

Hockey has always been like this.

It's players like Kronwall that are changing the nature of the game, because there is no accountability for their actions.

The Stuart hit and the resulting fight are exactly what hockey has seen as long as I've watched it.
Stuart plays a tough game, so he stands in and pays the price for it.


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01-27-2013, 03:27 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Kronwall plays a form of punk hockey that you see no problem with, That's fine. You're entitled to like punk hockey if you want.
Fighting non-fighters for clean hockey plays is punk hockey for me. It is all in how you define it and I am old enough to remember the rough and tumble 80's. You drew the attention sure, but the players you're listing he has yet to truly get. I also feel it wasn't always immediate, sure in some cases but there was more thought put into it in those days.

Kronwall gets the second tier stars to date. The first time he does this to a Giroux, Toews, and Stamkos I have feeling it will be different. To date he hasn't got someone that I would consider is what Landeskog is to the Avs.

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01-27-2013, 03:38 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Fighting non-fighters for clean hockey plays is punk hockey for me. It is all in how you define it and I am old enough to remember the rough and tumble 80's. You drew the attention sure, but the players you're listing he has yet to truly get. I also feel it wasn't always immediate, sure in some cases but there was more thought put into it in those days.

Kronwall gets the second tier stars to date. The first time he does this to a Giroux, Toews, and Stamkos I have feeling it will be different. To date he hasn't got someone that I would consider is what Landeskog is to the Avs.
Hahah.
Who cares if it's Havlat instead of Kane. How is Hemsky not a big name?

You're dancing all over the place to avoid the central issue.

If you hit to hurt, then be a man and stand up for what comes your way. Don't act like a chump. What Kronwall does is pure punk hockey. Lives barely within the rules and has no respect for the kind punishment he dishes out.

It's a disgrace.

I don't care what you feel it was in the 80s. I know what it was. I know what it was in the 90s.
I know what it is when I play, whether it was ice hockey or ball hockey.

If you're going to hit people like you're a tough guy, you better be prepared to prove your a tough guy.


That's the beauty of hockey. For all its grace and dazzling skill -- there's an underlying mentality that might commonly be experienced in a biker's clubhouse.

Don't try to cast soccer-momish logic on this sport

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01-27-2013, 03:56 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Hahah.
Who cares if it's Havlat instead of Kane. How is Hemsky not a big name?

You're dancing all over the place to avoid the central issue.

If you hit to hurt, then be a man and stand up for what comes your way. Don't act like a chump. What Kronwall does is pure punk hockey. Lives barely within the rules and has no respect for the kind punishment he dishes out.

It's a disgrace.

I don't care what you feel it was in the 80s. I know what it was. I know what it was in the 90s.
I know what it is when I play, whether it was ice hockey or ball hockey.

If you're going to hit people like you're a tough guy, you better be prepared to prove your a tough guy.


That's the beauty of hockey. For all its grace and dazzling skill -- there's an underlying mentality that might commonly be experienced in a biker's clubhouse.

Don't try to cast soccer-momish logic on this sport
Name the guy that has missed significant time to a Kronwall hit??? You can say he hits to hurt and I believe he does, but who has missed time???

Of course there is a difference between Havlat and Kane, of course there is a difference between Hemsky (last year) and say a Hall.

You know how you would play hockey and what you think is important. Your code is extinct for a lot of guys and it bothers you.

Calling the defense of clean powerful hits a soccer mom logic is silly. How about you read the rule book.

I don't care about how things work in your beer league that is apples to oranges. Sure it is still hockey but the difference is laughable.

If you're going to play the game with your head down with the puck on your stick then you get what is coming to you. That was always a part of the code too, and the reason true star players don't get hit like that but once every five years is they play with their heads up.

Hockey is open to interpretation saying you know like it is a fact and anybody that doesn't share your view on the world is just having a feeling is complete arrogance. I said in my opinion about the 80's because that is what it is, just like as hard as this is for you to believe that is all your interpretation on how hockey should be played is.

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01-27-2013, 04:31 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Don't hit to hurt people if you're afraid to get punched in the face.

Hockey has always been like this.

It's players like Kronwall that are changing the nature of the game, because there is no accountability for their actions.

The Stuart hit and the resulting fight are exactly what hockey has seen as long as I've watched it.
Stuart plays a tough game, so he stands in and pays the price for it.
While you'll view this as a cop out, I think this has more to do with the culture that the Wings have taken since Bowman left. I think ever since Holland has gotten control over the team completely he has not been a fan of the fighting game. With all due respect to him it seems like the entire West is following that gameplan.

Anaheim was like that, but no longer - I'm pretty sure that's because there is no one to go with for a lot of teams. Vancouver traded for Kassian because of the finals against the Bruins, but overall they're not looking for the rough stuff. The East is another story, almost every team has those types of guys.

I know the whole 'our PP is our enforcer' was the mantra for years, but I think until the West shifts to the different style of play there won't be as much of a need for it. I don't know if Kronwall would throw down if the Wings had a couple guys that fought routinely, but right now the Wings really don't have guys that do that nor do they play that type of game.

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01-27-2013, 04:31 PM
  #167
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Bottom line, i wanna win games. Say what you want about kronwalls physical style, but it helps this team. If other teams wanna start **** afterwords , thats fine. Ill take the powerplay.

This team needs any advantage it can get. :-D

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01-27-2013, 05:00 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Don't hit to hurt people if you're afraid to get punched in the face.

Hockey has always been like this.

It's players like Kronwall that are changing the nature of the game, because there is no accountability for their actions.

The Stuart hit and the resulting fight are exactly what hockey has seen as long as I've watched it.
Stuart plays a tough game, so he stands in and pays the price for it.

Stuart doesn't hit to hurt in the sense of 'injure' or 'headhunt.' I think The Code applies to the sneaky, over the line stuff which, you know, does creep into the game. You keep trying to make this about Kronwall which isn't the debate I'm trying to have.

I do NOT think a guy who lays down a clean hit needs to end up in a fight with an enforcer. That's ********.

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01-27-2013, 05:19 PM
  #169
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Don't care for fights after clean hits. Take the other guy's number, and look to return the favor.

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01-27-2013, 05:40 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Townsend Beasley View Post
Bottom line, i wanna win games. Say what you want about kronwalls physical style, but it helps this team. If other teams wanna start **** afterwords , thats fine. Ill take the powerplay.

This team needs any advantage it can get. :-D
At the end of the day, a team that doesn't stand up for itself (or each other) will be hardpressed to win games.

When Zetterberg got drilled by Weber and NOBODY reacted, I knew we were done.
When our reaction was to whine about suspensions and have a little wrestling match the next game, I knew we were done.

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01-27-2013, 05:54 PM
  #171
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Stuart doesn't hit to hurt in the sense of 'injure' or 'headhunt.' I think The Code applies to the sneaky, over the line stuff which, you know, does creep into the game. You keep trying to make this about Kronwall which isn't the debate I'm trying to have.

I do NOT think a guy who lays down a clean hit needs to end up in a fight with an enforcer. That's ********.

You're basing the "code" on some BS idea you have that does not relate to hockey.

Clean vs Dirty / Illegal vs Legal DOESN'T ****ING MATTER.

You hit a guy that hard, you can do serious damage. You better be prepared for retribution.

Stuart handled himself well. He delivered a hard hit (clean or not, doesn't matter).

Teammate jumps Stuart.

Stuart gets up and does his best to trade punches.

Therefore, in my book- Stuart gets a pass to keep playing his game.

He pays the price to play his hard and physical game.

And to Zetterberg Era -- whether or not anyone misses a game doesn't matter. The damage from these hits ads up. I'm pretty sure one of Stuart's victims was out with whiplash for awhile/.

Clean or not, if a player wants to deliver a hit like this, he can't just skate way from people. He needs to engage.

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01-27-2013, 06:07 PM
  #172
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While you'll view this as a cop out, I think this has more to do with the culture that the Wings have taken since Bowman left. I think ever since Holland has gotten control over the team completely he has not been a fan of the fighting game. With all due respect to him it seems like the entire West is following that gameplan.

Anaheim was like that, but no longer - I'm pretty sure that's because there is no one to go with for a lot of teams. Vancouver traded for Kassian because of the finals against the Bruins, but overall they're not looking for the rough stuff. The East is another story, almost every team has those types of guys.

I know the whole 'our PP is our enforcer' was the mantra for years, but I think until the West shifts to the different style of play there won't be as much of a need for it. I don't know if Kronwall would throw down if the Wings had a couple guys that fought routinely, but right now the Wings really don't have guys that do that nor do they play that type of game.
Vancouver's culture of wimpiness might have cost them the Stanley Cup Finals against Boston.

Sucker punch their star in the face 5-6 times and nobody responds.
Marchand punches Sedin in the face 5-6 times, Sedin left to complain to the media and the ref.


I'm not asking for the return of the Bruise Brothers... but this "turn the other cheek" BS needs to go away.

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01-27-2013, 08:50 PM
  #173
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Just saw Clowe get ejected because of his $0.02 brain...granted the high sticking call was weak, but he totally lost it in the sin bin, and then the ref ejected him.

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01-27-2013, 09:28 PM
  #174
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Sharks defense:
Boyle Vlasic, Murray, Stuart, Braun, Irwin
and...
when he gets back, Burns
Gotta be one of the deepest D's in the game

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01-27-2013, 10:29 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
At the end of the day, a team that doesn't stand up for itself (or each other) will be hardpressed to win games.

When Zetterberg got drilled by Weber and NOBODY reacted, I knew we were done.
When our reaction was to whine about suspensions and have a little wrestling match the next game, I knew we were done.
True enough. Like when Tucker went after and beat up Woolley (a complete non-fighter) shortly after we traded for him in 02-03 right in front of the Wings bench and everyone sat back and watched it. No response. You knew that team was going no where and sure enough they did. That's still my least favorite Wings team, just gutless.

And of course everyone remembers Downey tooling Laperriere for his run at Lidstrom and how that year turned out.

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