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Pittsburgh Needs Two Top Six Wingers

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Old
01-27-2013, 08:33 PM
  #26
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Poor Pens fans...only 3 1st line players and a couple more 2nd line wingers.

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01-27-2013, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
No, thanks.
Well there are other players out there. Good luck.

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01-27-2013, 08:34 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
Oh God, one of two names Penguin fans hate hearing with regards to Edmonton offers.

Big fan of you putting the dots above the a's.
The hilarious thing about it, it is Penguin fans that keep on bringing it up.

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01-27-2013, 08:35 PM
  #29
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Would someone have to overpay? Sure, but it wouldn't be a significant overpayment. That's for certain. It'd be a slight overpayment, at the time of the trade.

From the Pens, the most I'd ever want to see Shero give up would be Tangradi + 2nd. If that's not enough, then cool...


I am patient enough to wait for Beau Bennett.
Saw a couple of people offer that in various Kulemin-related threads, it didn't go well.

To Pens fans crying overpayment, don't you think that if Shero could have gotten a legitimate top 6 forward for scraps he would have already? We aren't getting any possible top 6 winger if Tangradi or Jeffrey or Bortuzzo is the star of the deal, period. Iginla deal is debatable for overpayment (especially considering his expiring contract) but Tangradi would be very expendable after the deal, and we haven't had a 2nd round pick pan out since Richard Park in 1994. Drop the 2nd maybe, but Despres + 1st may not compete with other offers.

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01-27-2013, 08:35 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Leafssss View Post
What about a conditional 3rd for MacArthur? Becomes a 2nd if Pens win one playoff series, becomes a first if they reach the finals.
OK, Kulemin mention in this thread to the Pens; now MacArthur ... we are awaiting one more name that frequently comes up from Leaf fans in trade ideas on Hockeybuzz.

So, basically MacArthur for a third. Our recent play-off history doesn't involve going long.

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01-27-2013, 08:35 PM
  #31
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Well there are other players out there. Good luck.
Thank you for you well wishes.

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01-27-2013, 08:37 PM
  #32
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Leafs say nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo .

Leafs could easily get a 2nd for MAcArthur at the deadline when Lupul comes back, we don't need to make it conditional.

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01-27-2013, 08:38 PM
  #33
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Ask EDM for Hall or Yak

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01-27-2013, 08:39 PM
  #34
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Kessel for a 6th round pick.
Ryan for a 5th round pick
Chara at 0% of his salary for a 4th round pick+Tangradi

Thank you.

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01-27-2013, 08:40 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by BigBenSF View Post
Saw a couple of people offer that in various Kulemin-related threads, it didn't go well.

To Pens fans crying overpayment, don't you think that if Shero could have gotten a legitimate top 6 forward for scraps he would have already? We aren't getting any possible top 6 winger if Tangradi or Jeffrey or Bortuzzo is the star of the deal, period. Iginla deal is debatable for overpayment (especially considering his expiring contract) but Tangradi would be very expendable after the deal, and we haven't had a 2nd round pick pan out since Richard Park in 1994. Drop the 2nd maybe, but Despres + 1st may not compete with other offers.
You are proposing trading a top prospect former 1st rounder, our most recent 2nd rounder, a 1st round pick, a 2nd round pick, and Eric Tangradi for a 35 year-old impending UFA and then a top prospect/first rounder, a good player in Jeffrey, and a 2nd for a guy who scored 7 ****ing goals last year. If Kulemin were half as good as Penguins and Leafs fans think he is on this board he'd still be a consistent 70 point guy.

You don't throw 2nd round picks around because we've had a bunch of busts, you still value a 2nd round pick as a 2nd round pick in this league. Also Alex Goligoski was a 2nd round pick, for the record, so the Richard Park comment is false.


You're proposing gutting the farm system and our next two drafts for a 35 year-old free agent and Nikolai Kulemin. Come on, man. We're not going to get a top flight guy for just one prospect, but nobody is suggesting that. We don't need a damn superstar on the wings, we just need a guy who knows what offense is.

I don't care for MacArthur, but him for that conditional pick is a way better option than betting the farm on one season.

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01-27-2013, 08:41 PM
  #36
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Calgary's only available to trade if they're out of playoff contention at the deadline, which I don't think they will be.

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01-27-2013, 08:43 PM
  #37
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[QUOTE=BigBenSF;58490351]It's come to the point this season where almost all Pens fans now realize that their #1 weakness is the lack of top 6 wingers to play with Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. Right now their lineup looks a lot like this:

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Kennedy-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Glass
Tangradi-Vitale-Adams


There are two notable flaws in the top 6, first being the evident problem on Malkin's line. TK is a great 3rd liner and has great chemistry with Sutter, but just isn't the complementary winger like Kunitz was last year on that line. Now, the average fan would just suggest to move Kunitz back to Malkin's line, which would be the logicial thing to do. Problem is, we aren't Dan Byslma . Seriously though, if Kunitz was moved to Malkin's line Crosby would have a gaping hole on the wing, and neither TK nor Tangradi nor a raw Beau Bennett can fill. That's where Needed Winger #1 comes in.

Needed Winger #1 would probably be a rental winger with an expiring contract, but someone that is a notch above complementary, an Iginla/Perry/Ryder/Semin type of player. The deal would probably happen at the trade deadline, so sellers could be parted away from contenders. A deal that I could see happening is Despres/Morrow/Pouliot + Blueger + TK/Tangradi + 1st for a legitimate 1st line player.

If Needed Winger #1 is acquired, our lines would look like this:

#1-Crosby-Dupuis
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
TK/Tangradi-Sutter-Cooke
Glass-Vitale-Adams

Lineup looks much better, but there are some flaws. First of all, some people may say that Dupuis isn't a legitimate top 6 forward, which is certainly plausible. I think that a TK-Sutter-Dupuis line would be great, they would win almost every race to the puck and control the possession in the opponent's end, giving us chances and our top 6 a rest. The other possible flaw is the play of Chris Kunitz this season. He looked pretty bad in the first 4 games, and was awful tonight against Ottawa. I think that a line switch may increase his composure, but I'm not sure if it's just a cold streak or a decline in play. Those two factors incorporated, the Pens will have to get Needed Winger #2.

Needed Winger #2 has a couple of different sections, but all of the sections share the same motive for coming to Pittsburgh. Winger #2 is not an elite forward that could be the star of a line, but is more of a complementary winger. There are young wingers who's stats have decreased (Chris Stewart, Devin Setoguchi, Nikolai Kulemin). At the trade deadline, these players may command something like a first round pick or a top 6 winger depending on where the team stands in the standings.
If the Pens wanted to go with a safer player I could see them going for a guy who has more consistent production (Ryane Clowe, Blake Wheeler, Dany Heatley) but would risk overpayment.
The last scenario would be a winger that is not being utilized fully by the team or is frustrated with the team itself (guys like Matt D'Agostini, Nino Niederreiter, and Magnus Pääjärvi).

We would obviously have to pay the most for Winger #1, then #2B, #2A, and lastly #2C. Lots of Pens fans want to see different scenarios take place, and mine would look like this:

(both trades take place at deadline)

For Winger #1:



Jarome Iginla



Simon Despres
Eric Tangradi
Theodor Blueger
2013 1st
2014 2nd


Then for Winger #2:



Ryane Clowe
Douglas Murray



Brooks Orpik


or



Olli Maatta
Dustin Jeffrey
2013 2nd



Nikolai Kulemin


Would make the Pens lineup look like:

Kunitz/Clowe-Crosby-Iginla
Kulemin/Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Kennedy-Sutter-Dupuis
Glass-Vitale-Adams


Interesting.


Everyone would be included in trade discussion except for Crosby, Malkin, Sutter, Neal, Letang, and Fleury. Let the offers commence.

(Credit to http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1329701 for help)
I really like maata, Jeffrey is a player, and then2013 draft is deep. On that note Semin isnt a 1st line player and all that for Nikolai Kulemin? WOW.

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01-27-2013, 08:44 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BigBenSF View Post
Saw a couple of people offer that in various Kulemin-related threads, it didn't go well.

To Pens fans crying overpayment, don't you think that if Shero could have gotten a legitimate top 6 forward for scraps he would have already?
I agree with you that it takes more than scraps. I just don`t want Kulemin though.

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01-27-2013, 08:44 PM
  #39
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Calgary's only available to trade if they're out of playoff contention at the deadline, which I don't think they will be.
If Calgary turns that trade offer down on the thought that they're actually going to win anything this year...I would honestly be speechless.

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01-27-2013, 08:44 PM
  #40
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You are proposing trading a top prospect former 1st rounder, our most recent 2nd rounder, a 1st round pick, a 2nd round pick, and Eric Tangradi for a 35 year-old impending UFA and then a top prospect/first rounder, a good player in Jeffrey, and a 2nd for a guy who scored 7 ****ing goals last year. If Kulemin were half as good as Penguins and Leafs fans think he is on this board he'd still be a consistent 70 point guy.

You don't throw 2nd round picks around because we've had a bunch of busts, you still value a 2nd round pick as a 2nd round pick in this league. Also Alex Goligoski was a 2nd round pick, for the record, so the Richard Park comment is false.


You're proposing gutting the farm system and our next two drafts for a 35 year-old free agent and Nikolai Kulemin. Come on, man. We're not going to get a top flight guy for just one prospect, but nobody is suggesting that. We don't need a damn superstar on the wings, we just need a guy who knows what offense is.

I don't care for MacArthur, but him for that conditional pick is a way better option than betting the farm on one season.
I like your style. Someone needs to tell him Tangradi and Jeffrey have no value at all right now though. I do think Kulemin brings things to the table that he would have success in Pittsburgh. Say a 20-goal guy that plays awesome defense? No, I don't buy the reason Pittsburgh should acquire him is this chemistry he had with Malkin in the KHL. Totally different league and style of play.

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01-27-2013, 08:45 PM
  #41
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I like your style. Someone needs to tell him Tangradi and Jeffrey have no value at all right now though.
They do have value...just no more than a 4th round pick because they'd be plucked off waivers the second they'd be put on them.


Jeffrey is a 3rd line player who's game doesn't fit a 4th line role...our 3rd line is properly filled so he's the odd man out. Tangradi...man, he's just not ready to be a 2nd liner right now, the 3rd line is filled, and he's wasted on the 4th line. I fully expect him to be a consistent 15-20 goal a year guy on someone's third line if he gets moved out, but he just doesn't fit in here right now...and because of the waivers situation he's pretty well stuck in no man's land.

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01-27-2013, 08:45 PM
  #42
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Thank you for you well wishes.
My pleasure.

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01-27-2013, 08:49 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
They do have value...just no more than a 4th round pick because they'd be plucked off waivers the second they'd be put on them.
I wouldn't give a fifth for Jeffrey or Tangradi. IMO, anything under a fourth round pick is basically no value. Dustin Jeffrey two years ago showed promise. Now, not so much.

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01-27-2013, 08:52 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
If Calgary turns that trade offer down on the thought that they're actually going to win anything this year...I would honestly be speechless.
It doesn't matter what your thoughts on the Flames are, what I said is still the reality. And they're not going to be out of contention so there's no point in everyone thinking about acquiring him this year. It's an exercise in futility.

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01-27-2013, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
I wouldn't give a fifth for Jeffrey or Tangradi. IMO, anything under a fourth round pick is basically no value. Dustin Jeffrey two years ago showed promise. Now, not so much.
The odds of Tangradi or Jeffrey being NHL players is far higher than a 5th round pick would be...that and Jeffrey has looked like a NHL player consistently when he's been in the line-up...he just hasn't been able to be utilized properly because of the strength of our third line and Craig Adams has incriminating photos of Dan Bylsma, so any hope of him getting 4th line duty requires an injury.

We're arguing semantics here anyway. A 4th round pick is generally the value of a #6/7 impending UFA defenseman at the trade deadline. That's not a whole ton of value. Tangradi or Jeffrey would likely be included in a deal involving the Penguins simply because of the contract numbers/waivers issue more than because they hold much value.

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01-27-2013, 08:55 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
You are proposing trading a top prospect former 1st rounder, our most recent 2nd rounder, a 1st round pick, a 2nd round pick, and Eric Tangradi for a 35 year-old impending UFA and then a top prospect/first rounder, a good player in Jeffrey, and a 2nd for a guy who scored 7 ****ing goals last year. If Kulemin were half as good as Penguins and Leafs fans think he is on this board he'd still be a consistent 70 point guy.

You don't throw 2nd round picks around because we've had a bunch of busts, you still value a 2nd round pick as a 2nd round pick in this league. Also Alex Goligoski was a 2nd round pick, for the record, so the Richard Park comment is false.


You're proposing gutting the farm system and our next two drafts for a 35 year-old free agent and Nikolai Kulemin. Come on, man. We're not going to get a top flight guy for just one prospect, but nobody is suggesting that. We don't need a damn superstar on the wings, we just need a guy who knows what offense is.

I don't care for MacArthur, but him for that conditional pick is a way better option than betting the farm on one season.
I agree with you about MacArthur, but I really think that Kulemin would be a much better fir in Pittsburgh than MacArthur. Kulemin is only 26, has two more years on his contract, and has notable chemistry with Malkin. I would rather pick up Kulemin than a guy like Seto or Stewart for arguably the same price (depends on your evaluation of Maatta and Despres).

When it comes to the Iginla deal, take note that this guy has scored above 30 goals in the past eleven seasons. If he is placed on the block, I know that every Pens fan would want to get him, and I'd bet that almost every other fan of every other contending team would want him as well, hence a bidding war. If it gets into a bidding war, I'd bet that Shero would drop out, but that offer would certainly be a contender. Crosby would get a Guerin++ for the playoffs and on (I would be 80% sure that he would resign). Change the 1st to conditional and I think the value is absolutely there. If the Pens winger problem gets fixed by deadline (either by TK or Tangradi stepping up or a Bennett callup) then there isn't a need for the trade. Remember the Hossa trade, we traded one of our best prospects, a 1st, and two young roster players for Hossa. I would assume that that's what Feaster would want for Iginla.

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01-27-2013, 09:02 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Would someone have to overpay? Sure, but it wouldn't be a significant overpayment. That's for certain. It'd be a slight overpayment, at the time of the trade.

From the Pens, the most I'd ever want to see Shero give up would be Tangradi + 2nd. If that's not enough, then cool...

I am patient enough to wait for Beau Bennett.
You think Tangradi and a 2nd is an overpay?
No that isnt enough.

We like Kulie, alot. Its funny people love to tell us Kulemin doesn't have much value yet his name comes in a trade thread every other day around here.

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01-27-2013, 09:13 PM
  #48
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You think Tangradi and a 2nd is an overpay?
No that isnt enough.

We like Kulie, alot. Its funny people love to tell us Kulemin doesn't have much value yet his name comes in a trade thread every other day around here.
Let me qualify this by saying Kulemin is a solid player that could help Pittsburgh. That said, lets dial it back. You are a Toronto fan. Every trade idea it seems involving the Leafs on this board or Hockey Buzz the last three years - the last names started with K ... Kadri, Kommasarek, Kulemin, Kaberle. All have been ideas floated around by Leaf fans in the last couple years for Jordan Staal, or whoever else. It's the same recycled names, just like Edmonton floating the soft Slovak; the Finn that can't stick after a decent rookie season and some failed prospect that has trouble sticking on the ECHL team, or a center that shoots his yearly load in a week.

Kulemin appears to be the only match for Pittsburgh. People value him more than others. Is he the 30-goal scorer of two years ago, or the 7-goal scorer of last year? Again, just because his name is bandied about alot doesn't mean everyone is on board. I am on board, but at what price? They think this chemistry he had with Malkin in the KHL automatically would rub off in a totally different league.

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01-27-2013, 09:15 PM
  #49
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I dont see PRV as ever being a top 6 winger. I see him developing in to a PK on the 3rd or 4th line.

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01-27-2013, 09:16 PM
  #50
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I agree with you about MacArthur, but I really think that Kulemin would be a much better fir in Pittsburgh than MacArthur. Kulemin is only 26, has two more years on his contract, and has notable chemistry with Malkin. I would rather pick up Kulemin than a guy like Seto or Stewart for arguably the same price (depends on your evaluation of Maatta and Despres).

When it comes to the Iginla deal, take note that this guy has scored above 30 goals in the past eleven seasons. If he is placed on the block, I know that every Pens fan would want to get him, and I'd bet that almost every other fan of every other contending team would want him as well, hence a bidding war. If it gets into a bidding war, I'd bet that Shero would drop out, but that offer would certainly be a contender. Crosby would get a Guerin++ for the playoffs and on (I would be 80% sure that he would resign). Change the 1st to conditional and I think the value is absolutely there. If the Pens winger problem gets fixed by deadline (either by TK or Tangradi stepping up or a Bennett callup) then there isn't a need for the trade. Remember the Hossa trade, we traded one of our best prospects, a 1st, and two young roster players for Hossa. I would assume that that's what Feaster would want for Iginla.
I'm sure Iginla would cost around the same as Hossa did.

But just going about their value then...
Despres > Esposito - Despres is a far more refined prospect and a far safer prospect, which helps his value here...especially because Esposito had show a lot of chinks in the armor by the point of the trade. If Atlanta had a sane GM they don't touch the guy...makes me feel real great that he's now one of our pro scouts.
Christensen >/= Tangradi - Christensen was a healthy scratch for a week or two when the trade happened and when he was in the line-up he was essentially just a shootout specialist. He wasn't a very good hockey player and he'd clearly run out of chances in Pittsburgh.
1st = 1st - No comment necessary here.
Bluegers > Nothing - No need for comment here.
2nd > Nothing - See above.

You have to remember...it wasn't just Esposito, Armstrong, Christensen, and a 1st for Hossa...Pascal Dupuis came back as well. Armstrong for Dupuis was essentially a side deal hidden in the bigger deal, as both were third liners that were struggling that season. Armstrong was thought to have more value at the time because of the age difference, but it wasn't a huge gap...his play was pretty brutal at the time of the trade and it really never recovered to what it had been.

I just don't see trading for a guy like Iginla. I worry about how much longer he's going to be able to play at a very high level. Hossa was a bigger flight risk than Iginla is...but Hossa was also 6 years younger. That and finances are a major concern...Malkin, Letang, and Sutter are all up for new contracts after next season.


We need to make an upgrade at wing before the deadline. We don't need to burn down the farm for a star. A Kunitz or Guerin-type deal would suffice just fine.

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