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Old
01-27-2013, 08:51 PM
  #101
letowskie
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
Well you're obviously not trading a 21-year old OEL for 29-year old Spezza. That's more a testament to OEL having huge value than it is to Spezza not being very valuable.
Right;

I'm definitely not saying that Spez is not valuable. As centers go, he's probably in the top dozen league wide in terms of skills. He is significantly better than many of the borderline #1s like Statsny/Backes/Krejci/Benn/etc; and is likely on par with the likes of Thornton/Sedin/Toews/Staal/etc. But I was just saying that it's not likely that we would trade someone who has the potential to be a top-5 D in the league and is developing well on schedule, for even a #1 C (although one that is a step below top echelon, like Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares that I mentioned). And we would definitely not have to add + to OEL in a trade for Spezza as a Sens fan had suggested.

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01-27-2013, 08:58 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
Right;

I'm definitely not saying that Spez is not valuable. As centers go, he's probably in the top dozen league wide in terms of skills. He is significantly better than many of the borderline #1s like Statsny/Backes/Krejci/Benn/etc; and is likely on par with the likes of Thornton/Sedin/Toews/Staal/etc. But I was just saying that it's not likely that we would trade someone who has the potential to be a top-5 D in the league and is developing well on schedule, for even a #1 C (although one that is a step below top echelon, like Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares that I mentioned). And we would definitely not have to add + to OEL in a trade for Spezza as a Sens fan had suggested.
Yeah, that's exactly where I stand on everything.

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01-27-2013, 09:23 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
And we would definitely not have to add + to OEL in a trade for Spezza as a Sens fan had suggested.
You sadly misunderstood me. I already explained the reasoning for OEL+ for Spezza.

And no I do not think Phoenix would do that trade. I never even suggested that as a trade.

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01-27-2013, 09:48 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
Right;

I'm definitely not saying that Spez is not valuable. As centers go, he's probably in the top dozen league wide in terms of skills. He is significantly better than many of the borderline #1s like Statsny/Backes/Krejci/Benn/etc; and is likely on par with the likes of Thornton/Sedin/Toews/Staal/etc. But I was just saying that it's not likely that we would trade someone who has the potential to be a top-5 D in the league and is developing well on schedule, for even a #1 C (although one that is a step below top echelon, like Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares that I mentioned). And we would definitely not have to add + to OEL in a trade for Spezza as a Sens fan had suggested.
When did Tavares suddenly become better than Spezza?

The only centres in the league that are clearly above Spezza in value are Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos. Giroux could be there but he has to prove himself more first -- anyone can have one good year. Otherwise Spezza is just as proven and skilled if not moreso than any other centre out there.

Also I stand by the deal I proposed:

Zibanejad, 1st 2013 and Bishop for Yandle. It works for both teams.

Someone suggested trading Spezza for Yandle would be fair? Oy.

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01-27-2013, 09:53 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
When did Tavares suddenly become better than Spezza?

The only centres in the league that are clearly above Spezza in value are Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos. Giroux could be there but he has to prove himself more first -- anyone can have one good year. Otherwise Spezza is just as proven and skilled if not moreso than any other centre out there.

Also I stand by the deal I proposed:

Zibanejad, 1st 2013 and Bishop for Yandle. It works for both teams.
Tavares is 22 and signed for 5 more years @ 5.5.
Giroux is 25, signed for 1 more year @ 3.75, and is an RFA after it expires.

Spezza is 29, signed for 2 more years @ 7, and has a history of back issues. The two younger, cheaper, healthier #1 centers just entering their prime are clearly more valuable assets.

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01-27-2013, 09:57 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
Tavares is 22 and signed for 5 more years @ 5.5.
Giroux is 25, signed for 1 more year @ 3.75, and is an RFA after it expires.

Spezza is 29, signed for 2 more years @ 7, and has a history of back issues. The two younger, cheaper, healthier #1 centers just entering their prime are clearly more valuable assets.
Sure, if you're looking at a team that isn't trying to compete over the next 3ish years. But if you're a team that is planning on competing you take Spezza because he's the better, more complete player right now (arguable with Giroux).

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01-27-2013, 09:58 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Sure, if you're looking at a team that isn't trying to compete over the next 3ish years. But if you're a team that is planning on competing you take Spezza because he's the better, more complete player right now (arguable with Giroux).
I don't think there's a team in the league that would take Spezza over Giroux or Tavares. That's not a knock on Spezza.

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01-27-2013, 09:59 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
When did Tavares suddenly become better than Spezza?

The only centres in the league that are clearly above Spezza in value are Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos. Giroux could be there but he has to prove himself more first -- anyone can have one good year. Otherwise Spezza is just as proven and skilled if not moreso than any other centre out there.

Also I stand by the deal I proposed:

Zibanejad, 1st 2013 and Bishop for Yandle. It works for both teams.

Someone suggested trading Spezza for Yandle would be fair? Oy.
A prospect, a draft pick and a back up goalie for Keith Yandle works for BOTH teams? Haha. That's rich.

That works for Phoenix like firing an RPG into the dressing room just before warm ups works for Phoenix. It blasts the hell out of any chance we have at qualifying for the playoffs. Ridiculous to expect Phoenix would even consider such a thing. We aren't shooting for a lotto pick, here. Smith will be back in net by week's end, and if I'm giving up a first pairing D just entering his prime, I want a C for the parent club, not one who will be learning the ropes for our minor league affiliate. Makes absolutely no sense for a competitive team.

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01-27-2013, 10:01 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
I don't think there's a team in the league that would take Spezza over Giroux or Tavares. That's not a knock on Spezza.
Well they'd be making a mistake then as Spezza is the better player.

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A prospect, a draft pick and a back up goalie for Keith Yandle works for BOTH teams? Haha. That's rich.

That works for Phoenix like firing an RPG into the dressing room just before warm ups works for Phoenix. It blasts the hell out of any chance we have at qualifying for the playoffs. Ridiculous to expect Phoenix would even consider such a thing. We aren't shooting for a lotto pick, here. Smith will be back in net by week's end, and if I'm giving up a first pairing D just entering his prime, I want a C for the parent club, not one who will be learning the ropes for our minor league affiliate. Makes absolutely no sense for a competitive team.
Maybe I didn't mention it in my post here (I also posted it in the Sens board) but it was meant to imply that Phoenix continues to play as they have and they are out of the playoff race.

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01-27-2013, 10:05 PM
  #110
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Well they'd be making a mistake then as Spezza is the better player.
Spezza is not a better player than Giroux. He may be a tad better than Tavares, but with Tavares entering his prime and Spezza exiting his, that could cease to be the case as soon as this season (if it didn't cease to be the case last season). Add in contract situation, injury situation, and age and it isn't even close.

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01-27-2013, 10:09 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Well they'd be making a mistake then as Spezza is the better player.



Maybe I didn't mention it in my post here (I also posted it in the Sens board) but it was meant to imply that Phoenix continues to play as they have and they are out of the playoff race.
That makes more sense. Still, it's terrible value. You are giving up zero proven assets of any kind. Other teams would make better offers.

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01-27-2013, 10:10 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
Spezza is not a better player than Giroux. He may be a tad better than Tavares, but with Tavares entering his prime and Spezza exiting his, that could cease to be the case as soon as this season (if it didn't cease to be the case last season). Add in contract situation, injury situation, and age and it isn't even close.
To each their own I guess. That's fine that you think that and the Sens are more than happy to keep Spezza while he continues to be one of the most underrated players in the league.

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That makes more sense. Still, it's terrible value. You are giving up zero proven assets of any kind. Other teams would make better offers.
You really think that there's a team out there that will offer more than a top 6 1st rounder, a mid to low 1st round pick and what is effectively a 2nd round pick for Yandle? It's pretty good value I thought and it allows Phoenix to fill for their needs with Zibanejad who should be a fairly safe bet to be a 2nd line power forward with 1st line upside and a 1st rounder that can become what they want it to in a fairly deep draft. Meanwhile Bishop has a lot of potential also.

I doubt many teams would offer much more, but anyway it was just what I thought was a fair trade if the situation was right (Phoenix isn't pushing for a playoff spot).

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01-27-2013, 10:14 PM
  #113
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To each their own I guess. That's fine that you think that and the Sens are more than happy to keep Spezza while he continues to be one of the most underrated players in the league.
2010/11
Giroux 76 points, 0.93 PPG
Spezza 57 points, 0.92 PPG

2011/12
Giroux 93 points, 1.12 PPG
Spezza 84 points, 1.05 PPG

Given that Giroux is younger, healthier, cheaper, more controllable, and in the last two years better than Spezza, I can't think of a single reason for taking Spezza over him. Literally, not one.

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01-27-2013, 10:26 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
To each their own I guess. That's fine that you think that and the Sens are more than happy to keep Spezza while he continues to be one of the most underrated players in the league.



You really think that there's a team out there that will offer more than a top 6 1st rounder, a mid to low 1st round pick and what is effectively a 2nd round pick for Yandle? It's pretty good value I thought and it allows Phoenix to fill for their needs with Zibanejad who should be a fairly safe bet to be a 2nd line power forward with 1st line upside and a 1st rounder that can become what they want it to in a fairly deep draft. Meanwhile Bishop has a lot of potential also.

I doubt many teams would offer much more, but anyway it was just what I thought was a fair trade if the situation was right (Phoenix isn't pushing for a playoff spot).
I think your assessment of value is off, first of all, and secondly I meant a real NHL asset would be worth much more to Phoenix, or really any team in the NHL, at all.

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01-27-2013, 10:27 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
You sadly misunderstood me. I already explained the reasoning for OEL+ for Spezza.

And no I do not think Phoenix would do that trade. I never even suggested that as a trade.
OK, I see what you are saying now;

It's kind of non-starter, I'm not sure why it was even discussed in the first place.

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01-27-2013, 10:30 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
When did Tavares suddenly become better than Spezza?

The only centres in the league that are clearly above Spezza in value are Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos. Giroux could be there but he has to prove himself more first -- anyone can have one good year. Otherwise Spezza is just as proven and skilled if not moreso than any other centre out there.

Also I stand by the deal I proposed:

Zibanejad, 1st 2013 and Bishop for Yandle. It works for both teams.

Someone suggested trading Spezza for Yandle would be fair? Oy.
Tavares is probably going to be roughly equivalent to Spezza this year. 2/3 years into the future, I would expect that he would significantly outperform Spezza. So yes, that makes him much more valuable to a team that is just entering a window of contention.

You would need much more than those to land Yandle. If you can put together a package that starts with a top-six forward, then add another blue-chip forward prospect, then you would definitely get the Coyotes attention. Anything short of that, Yandle would be out of your reach.

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01-27-2013, 11:22 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
2010/11
Giroux 76 points, 0.93 PPG
Spezza 57 points, 0.92 PPG

2011/12
Giroux 93 points, 1.12 PPG
Spezza 84 points, 1.05 PPG

Given that Giroux is younger, healthier, cheaper, more controllable, and in the last two years better than Spezza, I can't think of a single reason for taking Spezza over him. Literally, not one.
Quoting stats that are that close while ignoring systems, linemates, playstyles, and every other factor really doesn't mean anything to me. How much have you actually watched either of these two players?

I take Spezza because he makes every player around him better. He has top 5 vision and passing in the game. He's so underrated in his own zone they were actually pointing out how responsible he is defensively now on Sportsnet today and it shocked me. Faceoffs, etc.

Giroux brings all these things too, but he has done it with a better cast up until now and has yet to prove he has the staying power of Spezza. If Giroux can be the same guy he was last season consistently then yeah he's probably better than Spezza, but I take a fully healthy Spezza over most centres in the league.

Anyway, this isn't about Spezza, Giroux and Tavares though so I'll stop there. If my proposal (which had nothing to do with Spezza) is not a good one that's cool..was just checking.

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01-28-2013, 08:46 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
Right;

I'm definitely not saying that Spez is not valuable. As centers go, he's probably in the top dozen league wide in terms of skills. He is significantly better than many of the borderline #1s like Statsny/Backes/Krejci/Benn/etc; and is likely on par with the likes of Thornton/Sedin/Toews/Staal/etc. But I was just saying that it's not likely that we would trade someone who has the potential to be a top-5 D in the league and is developing well on schedule, for even a #1 C (although one that is a step below top echelon, like Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares that I mentioned). And we would definitely not have to add + to OEL in a trade for Spezza as a Sens fan had suggested.
i can agree with this entire post.

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01-28-2013, 09:12 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Do you know who Lehner is?
We should all just agree to stop posting about Lehner. My goodness, I've seen this question asked at least three times now. Yes, everybody ****ing knows who Lehner is. And I'm a Sens fan.

EDIT: OMG, and then I read the rest of the thread...

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As a Sens fan this thread is mostly embarrassing.
Agreed!


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Old
01-28-2013, 11:30 AM
  #120
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Maybe I didn't mention it in my post here (I also posted it in the Sens board) but it was meant to imply that Phoenix continues to play as they have and they are out of the playoff race.
If the Coyotes do what they have in the past, they will get a streak and make the play offs.
The last few years, since Tip took over, they put together streaks and make the playoffs. They will not give up on the season this early and are not shopping KY. If things look worse towards the deadline, they will not be trying to acquire a back-up goalie (which doesn't make any since in your scenario).

I do not believe 1 person said Yandle for Spezza was fair. Only that Spezza would help the team. Don't see how a 1st and Zibby helps the team other than a gamble that may pay off.

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