HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Calgary Flames
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

New Arena?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-27-2013, 08:31 PM
  #26
MarkGio
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Erixons Dad View Post
That seems like complete nonsense to me. Tell that to pub and bar owners around Calgary during the lockout.



This is also nonsense. In the Flames case, most season ticket holders are very wealthy individuals who can drop upwards of 10K a year on tickets. Money that would likely be going towards their second home in Arizona, or vacations, or investments outside of Calgary... not on a night out at some restaurant.



Also doesn't apply to Calgary, as our owners are from Calgary and live in Calgary. Players also live in Calgary for at least half the year.

None of these points are so strong that they warrant the ridiculous conclusion that sports team have no measurable effect on the economy. Wouldn't have expecting anything more from an article from a conservative public policy thinktank like Goldwater though.

This is why I dropped out of my economics degree. Economists like to think they are so scientific yet their models ignore tons of real world factors. Arguments often build off existing conservative views instead of starting on neutral ground. There's a reason economics is still considered an "art" like sociology and political science and doesn't get categorized as a business or scientific faculties, at least at the U of C.

And before someone accuses me of being some hippie liberal, I'm a very moderate person. I would be reluctant to give a significant amount of public money to the very rich Calgary Flames owners for the new arena. I just think this article is ********, perfect example of useless economist blather being portrayed as fact.
I think I was too hard on you; you make some valid points. Economics are an art for good reason. Despite good logic, its not testable. And where it has been tested, it's unethical. I agree our economic education has a free market agenda. I understand that cooperative models are not taught in great detail.

Anyways, I'm not saying a sports team doesn't stimulate the local economy, I'm saying it's in contention and questionable. I'm a hockey fan, yes, but only 1 in every 10 people I meet is one as well. Should they swallow the arguement that important resources get allocated to entertainment industry that only benefits some?

MarkGio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2013, 08:55 PM
  #27
Mike Jones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,255
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feel The Heat View Post
Any public money is an investment. Corporations that move here, Jobs created, Charities that benefit I could go on and on. Remember All these companies and employees pay taxes that you speak of. The Flames generate more money than any monies that would be used to help build a new arena.

Don't be so short sided.
If the city does "invest" in this private venture then it has a responsibility to demand interest on any monies designated for the project and Flames ownership has a responsibility to designate an appropriate percentage ownership stake back to the city.

There are lots of businesses who locate in Calgary and they do not receive the kind of breaks professional sports teams demand from time to time.

And again, our tax dollars need to be spent on higher priority areas.

Mike Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2013, 09:02 PM
  #28
Mike Jones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,255
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feel The Heat View Post
I'm quite informed thank you very much. I live in a world of reality where I see the every day effects of the Flames in our community. I see first hand the benefits of a sports franchises in general.
Don't believe every thing you read from every piece of literature or study you find. a lot of it is BS and will always be written to have it own spin to serve ones own needs..
I live in the real world as well and speak to lots of people who need city services more than they need pro sports teams.

I talk to a lot of Winnipeg natives here in Calgary who tell me that Winnipeg did fine without the Jets. There's lots to do there besides go to hockey games.

I'd personally like to see some hard numbers on how many city tax dollars are generated for money invested in arenas and sports teams so I will, indeed be checking out at least one of the resources mentioned earlier and maybe you should too.


Last edited by Mike Jones: 01-27-2013 at 09:08 PM.
Mike Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2013, 09:48 PM
  #29
Feel The Heat
Registered User
 
Feel The Heat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
I live in the real world as well and speak to lots of people who need city services more than they need pro sports teams.

I talk to a lot of Winnipeg natives here in Calgary who tell me that Winnipeg did fine without the Jets. There's lots to do there besides go to hockey games.

I'd personally like to see some hard numbers on how many city tax dollars are generated for money invested in arenas and sports teams so I will, indeed be checking out at least one of the resources mentioned earlier and maybe you should too.
Who is talking about spending money on just other entertainment. I'm talking about job creation, attracting corporations, Cubs reinvest in the community, donating time and money to charities etc
These corporations and employees who pay taxes, Players who pay taxes.

They might have done fine but they were not better off.

The tax dollars created compared to tax dollars lost.

Feel The Heat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2013, 10:44 PM
  #30
MarkGio
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feel The Heat View Post
Who is talking about spending money on just other entertainment. I'm talking about job creation, attracting corporations, Cubs reinvest in the community, donating time and money to charities etc
These corporations and employees who pay taxes, Players who pay taxes.

They might have done fine but they were not better off.

The tax dollars created compared to tax dollars lost.
Job creation? So the concession kids couldn't find a job in Calgary Alberta otherwise? It's more like the concessions stands will have trouble finding kids to hire.

What player taxes go into the community? Property taxes? Whoopty do, so does everyone else who owns a home of the same value. Their income taxes don't go into the community (directly anyways). Don't even get me started on Corporate income and tax avoidance strategies.

Charities? A player who donates 10K to doctor's without borders isn't exactly helping our communities.

Attracting Corporations? That one you'll have to explain that one. I'm pretty sure most big businesses knows where Calgary Alberta's at. Who's out of the loop exactly?

You sound like a politician who says things like "stimulating the economy" without any explaination. Hell me getting a raise is stimulating the economy. Yet I'm not living in the world....?


Last edited by MarkGio: 01-27-2013 at 10:54 PM.
MarkGio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2013, 10:59 PM
  #31
Feel The Heat
Registered User
 
Feel The Heat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Job creation? So the concession kids couldn't find a job in Calgary Alberta otherwise? It's more like the concessions stands will have trouble finding kids to hire.
What player taxes go into the community? Property taxes? Whoopty do, so does everyone else who owns a home of the same value. Their income taxes don't go into the community (directly anyways). Don't even get me started on Corporate income and tax avoidance strategies.

Charities? A player who donates 10K to doctor's without borders isn't exactly helping our communities.

Attracting Corporations? That one you'll have to explain that one. I'm pretty sure most big businesses knows where Calgary Alberta's at. Who's out of the loop exactly?

You sound like a politician who says things like "stimulating the economy" without any explaination. Hell me getting a raise is stimulating the economy. Yet I'm not living in the world....?
Are you kidding me? Are you really that naïve? Yes those are the type of jobs I was referring too There are a lot of corporations that will only move to cities with professional sports teams.

Do your income taxes go into the community? Come on man! end of discussion on my part.

Feel The Heat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2013, 11:10 PM
  #32
MarkGio
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feel The Heat View Post
Are you kidding me? Are you really that naïve? Yes those are the type of jobs I was referring too There are a lot of corporations that will only move to cities with professional sports teams.
Then name one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feel The Heat View Post
Do your income taxes go into the community? Come on man! end of discussion on my part.
No, man. Municipal revenue sources in Canada comes from property tax, fuel tax, business tax and a few other areas. Not income tax. Perhaps indirectly if a federal, provincial and municipal governments aren't running a deficit, but how the hell do you track how much money trickles down to the community level?

C'mon man.

MarkGio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2013, 11:18 PM
  #33
MarkGio
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,268
vCash: 500
Holy ****. Why do I have to do all the work for someone who's apparently well informed?

http://ottawa.ca/en/long-range-finan...ources-revenue

http://www.calgary.ca/CA/fs/Pages/Pl...-Revenues.aspx

All I ask was for someone to do a little reading on the subject. I guess that's too hard when people can just make **** up.

MarkGio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2013, 11:23 PM
  #34
Feel The Heat
Registered User
 
Feel The Heat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Then name one.



No, man. Municipal revenue sources in Canada comes from property tax, fuel tax, business tax and a few other areas. Not income tax. Perhaps indirectly if a federal, provincial and municipal governments aren't running a deficit, but how the hell do you track how much money trickles down to the community level?

C'mon man.
I could name many as I work for one but that would be just my word. Do a little homework as for income taxes comment Maybe you can google it. cough cough seems they have all the answers. Enjoy your evening. Outta here.

Feel The Heat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2013, 11:30 PM
  #35
Mike Jones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,255
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feel The Heat View Post
I could name many as I work for one but that would be just my word. Do a little homework as for income taxes comment Maybe you can google it. cough cough seems they have all the answers. Enjoy your evening. Outta here.
I would really worry about any business moving to a community simply because it has a sports team. I'd be curious to know which ones so I could avoid them. The businesses I know that have moved to Calgary have come here because of a positive business climate and tax regime. The sports teams are a bonus and not a must have.

I think you should be the one who does some homework around where our tax dollars go. Income taxes go to both the province and federal governments.

Mike Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 12:34 AM
  #36
Stewie Griffin
Moderator
Benevolent Overlord
 
Stewie Griffin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7,127
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feel The Heat View Post
There are a lot of corporations that will only move to cities with professional sports teams.
Easily the most ignorant thing I've read on the internet today.

And I was on the trade proposals forum earlier, so you know the bar was set pretty low...

Stewie Griffin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 12:35 AM
  #37
WhereIsIt
alongtheboards
 
WhereIsIt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,958
vCash: 1456
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
I think I was too hard on you; you make some valid points. Economics are an art for good reason. Despite good logic, its not testable. And where it has been tested, it's unethical. I agree our economic education has a free market agenda. I understand that cooperative models are not taught in great detail.

Anyways, I'm not saying a sports team doesn't stimulate the local economy, I'm saying it's in contention and questionable. I'm a hockey fan, yes, but only 1 in every 10 people I meet is one as well. Should they swallow the arguement that important resources get allocated to entertainment industry that only benefits some?
I think you and I are probably on the same page as far as public funds for a new arena in Calgary though, I was just blowing off some steam at that article and years of ruthless economic classes, no worries, haha.

I just find that even using the best of our logic human behavior isn't very predictable, and economics as a subject suffers from this.

WhereIsIt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 08:20 AM
  #38
Feel The Heat
Registered User
 
Feel The Heat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
I would really worry about any business moving to a community simply because it has a sports team. I'd be curious to know which ones so I could avoid them. The businesses I know that have moved to Calgary have come here because of a positive business climate and tax regime. The sports teams are a bonus and not a must have.

I think you should be the one who does some homework around where our tax dollars go. Income taxes go to both the province and federal governments.
Thanks for enlightening me I would have never have known that.

Corporations have many deciding factors. If they have 2 cities in mind and one has a professional sports team and the other does not. Guess which city wins out.
Must every little thing be spelled out.

Feel The Heat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 08:23 AM
  #39
Mike Jones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,255
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feel The Heat View Post
Corporations have many deciding factors. If they have 2 cities in mind and one has a professional sports team and the other does not. Guess which city wins out.
Must every little thing be spelled out.
Corporations go wherever they get the best deal. Loyalty is a dollar deep and that's the principle that wins the day.

Mike Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 12:52 PM
  #40
Pacem
Registered User
 
Pacem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Langley
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,327
vCash: 500
Using tax payers money to pay for a stadium isn't the best way of spending money.

The owners in Calgary will push for it, but the city should just stand strong. What can the owners do? Threaten to move? Where to? They wont be able to move their franchise to another Canadian city. The NHL are saving what Canadian cities they have left for the expensive expansion fees. They will not be able to find a suitable market in the US that will blindly support their hockey team. The city should call their bluff if they try to bully them for tax payer money. The only reason the owners will ask for funding is because they feel they can get it, not because they need it. They don't need it and they would be able to do it on their own. I don't blame them for trying, but the city should just say no.

I don't have any facts to fall back on. What I seem to notice is that when tax payer money is used to help a private company build big projects, the cost over runs are insane. And it appears that when a big project is strictly privately funded, the over runs are at a manageable level. Once they start building **** with tax payer money, they have the city by the balls and it has to get done no matter the cost.

Pacem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 02:33 PM
  #41
edmonton_ice
Registered User
 
edmonton_ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 930
vCash: 500
More information..

The Saddledome is currently the 5th oldest building in The NHL.

MSG 1968
Nassau Coliseum 1972
Rexall Place 1974
Joe Louis Arena 1979
Saddledome 1983

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._League_arenas

IMO Building a new stadium is the preferred option or if viable renovating the Saddledome. Calgary is a world class city that deserves a world class facility.

edmonton_ice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 02:55 PM
  #42
reign of fire
Registered User
 
reign of fire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 101
vCash: 500
Murray Edwards and the other Flames owners are worth literally BILLIONS.
If I was them, I'd build the rink and complex myself and attempt to retain profit/tax write-offs for myself.


Last edited by reign of fire: 01-28-2013 at 04:44 PM.
reign of fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 03:06 PM
  #43
Stewie Griffin
Moderator
Benevolent Overlord
 
Stewie Griffin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7,127
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by reign of fire View Post
Murray Edwards and the other Flames owners are worth literally BILLONS.
If I was them, I'd build the rink and complex myself and attempt to retain profit/tax write-offs for myself.
Depends what it would cost, at the end of the day. Keep in mind the Flames don't actually own the Saddledome, they just lease it from the City.

Rumour has it that there have been plans drafted up for a new arena on the same site, which would involve re-alignment of the LRT to provide underground direct access to the new stadium.

Realigning the LRT is no small matter, and may push costs to nearly $0.75 to 1 billion - using off the cuff math as a source.

Stewie Griffin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 03:38 PM
  #44
reign of fire
Registered User
 
reign of fire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
Depends what it would cost, at the end of the day. Keep in mind the Flames don't actually own the Saddledome, they just lease it from the City.Rumour has it that there have been plans drafted up for a new arena on the same site, which would involve re-alignment of the LRT to provide underground direct access to the new stadium.

Realigning the LRT is no small matter, and may push costs to nearly $0.75 to 1 billion - using off the cuff math as a source.
All the more reason to build one when you don't own it. Save a ton of lease payments and you are into a new building at the same time, which just happens to be a business write off.
Have not heard the LRT rumor story

reign of fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 06:30 PM
  #45
Rangediddy
Registered User
 
Rangediddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 649
vCash: 50
There's quite a bit of land around the Saddledome now, it'd be nice to have a new arena stay in that area.

Also, I'd hope that the new arena would continue to use the saddle design, though more updated, but that building is a Calgary icon and I'd hate to see a generic oval building put up.

Rangediddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:53 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.