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Pittsburgh Needs Two Top Six Wingers

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01-28-2013, 12:18 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Dupuis was worth the Hossa trade alone. He's been an absolute gem that can play anywhere in the lineup and on the PK. I'm fine with him riding shotgun with Crosby as long as we can get another winger for him. He's one of the best values in the NHL for his contract, ES and PK production, and what he brings to the team.

Pens really don't need 2 wingers. Ideally they could use one RH RWer that can play with 87 and on the PP since our only RH shot on the PP is Letang.

We don't even need a stud as Guerin showed. Honestly a guy like Brendan Morrow would do.
If Dupuis is going to be on one side of Crosby, you can't plug in another 3rd wheel type on the other. Then we just run into the same problems we have ever since the '09 playoffs - the opposition can key in on Sid with the knowledge that even when he gets them the puck on a platter, they won't be able to capitalize on anything.

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01-28-2013, 12:19 AM
  #77
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The Pens need one top-6 winger: Dupuis goes with Crosby, Neal goes with Malkin and Kunitz can play on either wing.

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01-28-2013, 12:21 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Why are people down on Despres now, or seemingly is more expendable
For the record, I'd only give up Despres in a deal for an elite winger like Perry or Iginla.

He's seemingly more expendable now with the solid play from our top 4 and steady play from Dumoulin in WBS, though it's obviously still early.

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01-28-2013, 12:24 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
If Dupuis is going to be on one side of Crosby, you can't plug in another 3rd wheel type on the other. Then we just run into the same problems we have ever since the '09 playoffs - the opposition can key in on Sid with the knowledge that even when he gets them the puck on a platter, they won't be able to capitalize on anything.
Crosby would be fine with another Guerin'esque guy. He doesn't need to play with superstars. Really, he excels with grinders.

As much as I'd love Corey Perry to play with Sid, the reality is it's not very likely.

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01-28-2013, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Crosby would be fine with another Guerin'esque guy. He doesn't need to play with superstars. Really, he excels with grinders.

As much as I'd love Corey Perry to play with Sid, the reality is it's not very likely.
Really? Crosby's been neutered in his last two playoff series for the exact reasons I mentioned. Under tighter, dedicated playoff checking, playing Sid with two guys like Dupuis and Guerin is begging for another early exit.

We have 6 damned high-end defense prospects. 6! If it takes one of them, a first rounder, and some lesser futures to get Sid an honest to God elite winger and ensure we have two dangerous scoring lines in the post-season, then we need to do it.

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01-28-2013, 12:29 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Really? Crosby's been neutered in his last two playoff series for the exact reasons I mentioned. Under tighter, dedicated playoff checking, playing Sid with two guys like Dupuis and Guerin is begging for another early exit.

We have 6 damned high-end defense prospects. 6! If it takes one of them, a first rounder, and some lesser futures to get an honest to God elite winger, then we need to do it.
Crosby hasn't been healthy his last few playoff series.

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01-28-2013, 12:32 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Crosby hasn't been healthy his last few playoff series.
And maybe he won't be 100% in his next one, either.

Enough with the prospect hoarding...we're not Washington. If we have the assets and cap space to fill a gaping hole in the roster and better our chances at another Cup, then we need to do it.

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01-28-2013, 12:34 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
1. This has nothing to do with video games, and everything to do with maximizing talent. Crosby has been neutralized by shadows and double-teams when it matters for long enough. He could use one winger who can command attention from checkers and make the most of his opportunities when set-up for gimmies. Maybe even create something on his own once in awhile. Don't even get me started on what a RH shot like Iggy's could do for the PP.

2. Again, the farm wouldn't be "blown up". We'd be set on the winger front with Bennett on the horizon, and more defense prospects than we can shake a stick at. The only high-end futures we'd lose would be Despres and the 1st...for a proven elite winger.

3. The Cup was great, but using it as justification for our superstar centers' wings is goofy. Should we get rid of Neal and get back Talbot and Feds for Malkin too? After all, that line earned us a Cup once.

4. The Hossa trade was absolutely worth it. We had a long playoff run and came within a game of winning the Cup...and we didn't lose a damn thing worth mentioning.
1. I just don't think we need a star for Sid's wing, we just need a good player. People keep referring to getting 'Sid's Neal'...but the thing was, James Neal wasn't a star when we acquired him (though he was a Star...aha...ha...ha...). We don't need a name, we need to be smart...and I don't think going balls to the wall to acquire a name is in any way, shape, or form smart. The consistently good teams do so because they're able to fill in replacements from their farm, not because they sell off 2 years worth of draft picks every few years.

2. You de-value 2nd rounders way too much. That's 3 consecutive years without a 2nd rounder and 2 first rounders going out in these deals...I fail to see how that isn't going to have a significant impact on the farm. Especially when the one second rounder that has already been drafted is a forward. We need guys like Bļugers to develop if we're going to sustain a high level of play for a long time.

3. That was proof that we don't need stars to win, we need hard workers who can chip in offensively to win. That doesn't mean we should connect grinders to their wings and expect to win (still blows my mind that Geno could win a Conn Smythe with those two on his wings), but that we don't need an All-Star player for results to be produced.

4. Completely missing the point of that, but yes...there isn't a Penguins fan alive that will look back and wonder what could have been had we stuck with Angelo Esposito and Daulton Leveille (the guy taken with that 1st rounder)...and Dupuis has been worth the package sent out in hindsight...but does that mean that any team should have sent that package for Pascal Dupuis? No. That's silly. The trade looks as bad as it does because Esposito's knees blew up (disregarding his play before the trade, the knees are what cost him any chance at redeeming himself) and Atlanta threw away the first round pick on a total bust....well that and Colby Armstrong fell apart because of injuries (mostly inflicted after the deal, like Esposito) and Erik Christensen was a one-trick pony that no one liked anyway. That trade doesn't look so good if we're dealing Max Pacioretty (taken 2 spots after Esposito) and Atlanta drafts someone like Jacob Markstrom (taken 2 spots after Leveille) or Vyacheslav Voynov (right after Markstrom) or Derek Stepan (taken 51st) instead of Leveille.


You and I have very different views on the direction this team should go in and it's obvious we're not going to agree. Defenders will get dealt, that much is certain...but if we make deals like the ones proposed in the OP I'm going to be ****ing furious.

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01-28-2013, 12:38 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
If Dupuis is going to be on one side of Crosby, you can't plug in another 3rd wheel type on the other. Then we just run into the same problems we have ever since the '09 playoffs - the opposition can key in on Sid with the knowledge that even when he gets them the puck on a platter, they won't be able to capitalize on anything.
In pretty much every playoff series since the first Finals appearance (when they had Hossa), Crosby's line has been shut down every time they played a good defensive team. Thankfully the following year their opponents they faced in the Eastern playoffs were average at best defensively. However, against Detroit and Montreal the following year his line produced almost nothing at even strength.

ES non-empty net points:

Guerin: vs Detroit-0
vs Montreal-1

Kunitz: vs Detroit-2
vs Montreal-3

Crosby: vs Detroit-1
vs Montreal-2

As someone pointed out earlier, those were the wingers Crosby had when we won the cup. It doesn't look like they were the reason that we did so. If Crosby doesn't get a linemate that can create offense, we are going to be eliminated early once again if we face a team that can shut down Crosby.

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01-28-2013, 12:51 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
1. I just don't think we need a star for Sid's wing, we just need a good player. People keep referring to getting 'Sid's Neal'...but the thing was, James Neal wasn't a star when we acquired him (though he was a Star...aha...ha...ha...). We don't need a name, we need to be smart...and I don't think going balls to the wall to acquire a name is in any way, shape, or form smart. The consistently good teams do so because they're able to fill in replacements from their farm, not because they sell off 2 years worth of draft picks every few years.
Sid doesn't need a star, but he certainly needs someone better than MacArthur who isn't even a definite upgrade on what he has now. Haven't we rolled the dice enough with Ponikarovsky-type stop-gaps? Or do we want a farce like that to compromise another playoff run?

Iginlas do not come around often, and if we can accommodate his salary and have the assets to get it done, then we ought to. It would answer a giant neon question mark for this roster.

Quote:
2. You de-value 2nd rounders way too much. That's 3 consecutive years without a 2nd rounder and 2 first rounders going out in these deals...I fail to see how that isn't going to have a significant impact on the farm. Especially when the one second rounder that has already been drafted is a forward. We need guys like Bļugers to develop if we're going to sustain a high level of play for a long time.
Because, as I pointed out, we'd still have a good collection of high-end prospects. The Staal trade overflowed our pipeline with great defense prospects and opened up considerable cap space. We ought to use some of that return to become a better team now, not wait to see if it can develop into something worthwhile when Sid and Geno are 30+.

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3. That was proof that we don't need stars to win, we need hard workers who can chip in offensively to win. That doesn't mean we should connect grinders to their wings and expect to win (still blows my mind that Geno could win a Conn Smythe with those two on his wings), but that we don't need an All-Star player for results to be produced.
Putting grinders on both Sid's wings and hoping they can suffice for a Cup run seems to me an awful lot like waiting for lightning to strike twice in the same spot. We won in spite of our wings, not because of them.

Quote:
4. Completely missing the point of that, but yes...there isn't a Penguins fan alive that will look back and wonder what could have been had we stuck with Angelo Esposito and Daulton Leveille (the guy taken with that 1st rounder)...and Dupuis has been worth the package sent out in hindsight...but does that mean that any team should have sent that package for Pascal Dupuis? No. That's silly. The trade looks as bad as it does because Esposito's knees blew up (disregarding his play before the trade, the knees are what cost him any chance at redeeming himself) and Atlanta threw away the first round pick on a total bust....well that and Colby Armstrong fell apart because of injuries (mostly inflicted after the deal, like Esposito) and Erik Christensen was a one-trick pony that no one liked anyway. That trade doesn't look so good if we're dealing Max Pacioretty (taken 2 spots after Esposito) and Atlanta drafts someone like Jacob Markstrom (taken 2 spots after Leveille) or Vyacheslav Voynov (right after Markstrom) or Derek Stepan (taken 51st) instead of Leveille.
Draft picks and prospects can be a crapshoot, but proven elite players are proven elite players.

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01-28-2013, 12:51 AM
  #86
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Pittsburgh got the superstars. They don't need more, and this is coming from a Pens fan. They need good, complementary players that can fit the teams system. There are top 6 wingers that fit this mold. But they don't need to give up a farm to get them. I personally feel one winger acquisition would be enough.

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01-28-2013, 12:52 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Draft picks and prospects can be a crapshoot, but proven elite players are proven elite players.
And 35 year-old power forwards typically don't age like Catalan wine. We're not acquiring circa 2006 Jarome Iginla, so I don't care how many years in a row he's hit a statistical milestone, his best days are firmly in the rear-view mirror.

That and Alex Goligoski got us as much as he did in trade because he was a young defenseman with upside who had proven he could be a NHL defender. Goligoski the 5th defender was worth a hell of a lot more than Goligoski the 2nd round draft pick was. Some of the defenders do have to be moved...some of them will be moved...and Simon Despres is likely to be the first among them just because he's the only one who has played in the NHL. The fact Despres has NHL experience is going to make him more appealing to a team looking in a trade than someone like Brian Dumoulin or Olli Määttä, even if their upside is just about the same.


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01-28-2013, 12:55 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Enough with the prospect hoarding...we're not Washington. If we have the assets and cap space to fill a gaping hole in the roster and better our chances at another Cup, then we need to do it.
I agree with that. I am just loath to do it for someone who is my age almost to the day. The risk here is substantial, and I would need quite a bit of the return to be conditional on him re-signing... or conditional that he does NOT re-sign with Calgary!

That's about the only thing he can do to endear himself more to that franchise outside of guiding them to a surprising cup. Allow them to get a great return on him and then sign with them at a discount in the Summer. Wouldn't even surprise me.

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01-28-2013, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by PensFan68 View Post
As a Pens fan, I personally get quite annoyed with the majority of other Pens fans. Could we use a top 6 winger or two? Most certainly, but making it seem as if that's the only way we can win is a joke. I'm sure just about every team would take our top 3 forwards over theirs (Crosby/Malkin/Neal) and Kunitz is no slouch either. As much as I'm not a huge Dupuis fan, he's done great in a top 6 role here. We have 2 franchise players, 1 all star, 1 good top 6, and a decent filler, Pens fans need to realize that we can't have it all. Are we struggling to score? Yes. Should we be? No. I put more on the coaches than the players at this point.
This. I was going to post something like this but didn't want to spark trouble. It does get annoying. Some Penguins fans think the Pens don't have enough superstars or fire power. Are you kidding? When people say Penguins fans are spoiled, I suppose that is an understatement.

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01-28-2013, 12:59 AM
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And 35 year-old power forwards typically don't age like Catalan wine. We're not acquiring circa 2006 Jarome Iginla, so I don't care how many years in a row he's hit a statistical milestone, his best days are firmly in the rear-view mirror.
We wouldn't be able to acquire a '06-'07 Jarome Iginla. Nobody would. The point isn't whether his best days are behind him, the point is that the days ahead of him are almost certainly much better than anything Sid has. Last year he was a top 10 RW in goals and points.

I don't see any valid reason to ignore a long, impressive track record accomplished with nothing resembling a scoring line center, never mind an elite scoring line center.

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01-28-2013, 01:04 AM
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I agree with that. I am just loath to do it for someone who is my age almost to the day. The risk here is substantial, and I would need quite a bit of the return to be conditional on him re-signing... or conditional that he does NOT re-sign with Calgary!

That's about the only thing he can do to endear himself more to that franchise outside of guiding them to a surprising cup. Allow them to get a great return on him and then sign with them at a discount in the Summer. Wouldn't even surprise me.
With Iggy's track record and fitness level, the risk in him keeping up his current production for the next few years is far less than the risk of a one-hit wonder like Clarke MacArthur being valuable to us for even one playoff run.

He'd cost a lot more, but you usually get what you pay for.

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01-28-2013, 01:04 AM
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Hey, I have Milan Michalek.

See that guy? Joe Morrow. I WANT HIM.

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01-28-2013, 01:05 AM
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The San Jose proposal is hilarious. One of the worst proposals I have ever seen.

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01-28-2013, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
If Dupuis is going to be on one side of Crosby, you can't plug in another 3rd wheel type on the other. Then we just run into the same problems we have ever since the '09 playoffs - the opposition can key in on Sid with the knowledge that even when he gets them the puck on a platter, they won't be able to capitalize on anything.
How much of a problem was that for Dupuis last year without Sid for most of the year?

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Hey, I have Milan Michalek.

See that guy? Joe Morrow. I WANT HIM.
Not getting him for Michalek.

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01-28-2013, 01:09 AM
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Well Ovechkin is roaring back and his favorite team growing up was Pittsburgh... so...

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01-28-2013, 01:17 AM
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How much of a problem was that for Dupuis last year without Sid for most of the year?
Dupuis can put up solid numbers on any line because his offensive game is based on skating fast in a straight line and a hard slapshot. Unfortunately, that's not really beneficial to making or finishing plays with an elite center.

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01-28-2013, 01:23 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
With Iggy's track record and fitness level, the risk in him keeping up his current production for the next few years is far less than the risk of a one-hit wonder like Clarke MacArthur being valuable to us for even one playoff run.

He'd cost a lot more, but you usually get what you pay for.
I would love to get Iginla to the Penguins, but it depends on who they are giving up for him. Iginla has to do most of the work when he's the main guy, with the Penguins it's more along the lines of "be available, you're getting the puck" and the rest would be magic.

I feel for Iginla, super nice guy, very loyal too, but he deserves a legit #1 center and I still remember how he was like a kid in a candy store when he was Sid's winger in the Olympics.

Guys I would NOT want to give up would be: Bennett, Despres, Morrow, Harrington, Dumoulin, and Maatta.

I'm ok with Pouliot going in a deal for Iginla, something like...

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To Pittsburgh: Jerome Iginla

To Calgary: Derrick Pouliot + Eric Tangradi + Tyler Kennedy + 1st in 2013 (turns into a 2nd if Jerome walks as a UFA).
Need to add (from the Pens) ??

Penguins

Kunitz, Crosby, Iginla
Dupuis, Malkin, Neal
Cooke, Sutter, Vitale
Glass, Jeffrey, Adams

Flames

Glencross, Tanguay, Cammalleri
Baertschi, Backlund, Stempniak
Horak, Stajan, Kennedy
Comeau, Jones, Jackman

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01-28-2013, 01:27 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Dupuis can put up solid numbers on any line because his offensive game is based on skating fast in a straight line and a hard slapshot. Unfortunately, that's not really beneficial to making or finishing plays with an elite center.
Last year, he showed he had more than just a wildly crazy hard slap shot. He was scoring goals in close, started showing he had a half decent backhand and some decent puckhandling.

I think he's been so focused on being that grinder on a top line with the Pens that he forgot he had skills too, not a lot, but enough. He showed last year when the team needed everyone to step up and he stepped up. He wasn't just hot and cold, he was consistently solid all year long.

I think he gets a lot of crap from us Pens fans, because Therrien loved the guy and Bylsma keeps him in the top 6, but like everyone pointed out, he works hard and works everywhere on the roster for the forward lines. There will be a time when the Pens get a better set of wingers for Sid, Dupers will then get moved down. Until that happens, he's a good fit where he is.

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01-28-2013, 01:28 AM
  #99
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We got Hemsky, hur hur.

He could use a change of scenery.

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01-28-2013, 01:31 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Really? Crosby's been neutered in his last two playoff series for the exact reasons I mentioned. Under tighter, dedicated playoff checking, playing Sid with two guys like Dupuis and Guerin is begging for another early exit.

We have 6 damned high-end defense prospects. 6! If it takes one of them, a first rounder, and some lesser futures to get Sid an honest to God elite winger and ensure we have two dangerous scoring lines in the post-season, then we need to do it.
The problem is that many teams have defensive pieces worth trading but not enough supply for forwards to acquire a big time offensive piece. Everyone's holding onto their forwards like gold.

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