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David Desharnais Discussion (Slow Start & Contact Talk)

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01-28-2013, 08:53 AM
  #76
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In reality, he had a point on the OT goal yesterday, Cole never touched the puck but got the assist.

I expect more from those 2 anyway but again I'll ask. If 4 games is enough to hate on DD, should 4 games be enough for Eller as well? They are playing same line now and both played during lockout.

Again, don't get me wrong, Desharnais hasn't been up to par with what we need from him but so have quite a few people. Are they off the hook? Will there be a thread about their lack of production? Probably not and that's how you know DD has an uphill battle to climb because we got him for free. There's no draft pick used or starting goalie we traded to recieve him.

Anyway, that being said, if they want to put Eller at center and DD at wing for that line, maybe it will work. They've been flat so some changes wouldn't hurt.

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01-28-2013, 08:58 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
In reality, he had a point on the OT goal yesterday, Cole never touched the puck but got the assist.

I expect more from those 2 anyway but again I'll ask. If 4 games is enough to hate on DD, should 4 games be enough for Eller as well? They are playing same line now and both played during lockout.

Again, don't get me wrong, Desharnais hasn't been up to par with what we need from him but so have quite a few people. Are they off the hook? Will there be a thread about their lack of production? Probably not and that's how you know DD has an uphill battle to climb because we got him for free. There's no draft pick used or starting goalie we traded to recieve him.

Anyway, that being said, if they want to put Eller at center and DD at wing for that line, maybe it will work. They've been flat so some changes wouldn't hurt.
DD was a guy that some said made Plekanec "expendable" last year, and currently our first line centre. There are certain expectations that go with that. You can afford him to be bad for very long.

Eller is ideally a checking centre. He's been bad too, but his role isn't very important on the team currently.

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01-28-2013, 09:09 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
DD was a guy that some said made Plekanec "expendable" last year, and currently our first line centre. There are certain expectations that go with that. You can afford him to be bad for very long.

Eller is ideally a checking centre. He's been bad too, but his role isn't very important on the team currently.
Nah, Plekanec wasn't made expendable by DD. Drafting a couple stars in the draft is why people wanted to trade Plekanec. There was much talk on HF about Plekanec for Anaheim's 6th overall in order to get Gally and Forsberg for example or Gally and Grigorenko.

In either case, that wasn't my point. For instance, DAChampion made a thread about how Eller is going to be much better and constantly hates on DD. I await his thread saying Eller will ultimately be a 3rd line center. It won't happen though.

There seems to be an extreme bias against DD. Granted, I don't believe he's a 1st line center either. I think he can play the part but will never be a true #1C. When I say play the part I refer to last year. Still, guy should have 2 points in 4 games(he should've got the assist). If anything Cole got 2 assists he should've never had, giving him 0 points. Where's the thread that Cole's 35 goals were based on soft minutes? It's very easy for you to say there's expectations on DD now(he was hated last year too though) but is there none on last year's leading goal scorer?

That is pretty much my point. There's no thread criticizing the 'great dane' or Erik Cole's lacklustre play.

By all means, criticize DD. The guy needs to do more, everyone knows that. Just asking people to be fair and not turn a blind eye when their favourite player just isn't that good either.

One thing I never understood is DD-Cole-Max played together the majority of last year. When DD made a point, soft minutes. When Max made a point, future star?

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01-28-2013, 09:15 AM
  #79
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Probably because Pacioretty did the impossible the year before and made Gomez look good.

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01-28-2013, 09:30 AM
  #80
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On Zubrus' goal it was Cole who let him go. Desharnais is the best playmaker on the team right now. I don't get all the hate. He is a cheap center that gives us more than his salary. IT's unfair to compare him with Staal but if their's one side of the game where Desharnais is better, it is as a playmaker. Size isn't everything and their's a reason why Desharnais never get drafted. At 6'3'' 220 lbs he would have been a top 5 pick. But right now, he is not player as poorly as people here say, he has 2 points in four games. He could create more dangerous plays but replacing him by lazy Eller would be a shame. Lars is playing poorly whoever he plays with. The injury to Pacioretty gives him a break and he needs to catch it. And right now the Plekanec line is our top line. But maybe in two weaks, we will have a thread against Gionta because he is small and can't contain big wingers in the D zone... I like our three balanced lines and I really love our fourth "energy" line. Pretty good team right now.
Desharnais may be the best playmaker on the team but he's not a better playmaker than Staal The guy is an All-Star. Size is very important when you're the #1 center and you're facing other teams top centers.

You don't understand the problem of size at center vs. size at wing. You have to be big down the middle, you can afford to have a few small wingers on your team. Either that or you do the exact opposite which is what Boston has the luxury of doing because of how many big wingers they have, which we don't have. That's why I advocate for Desharnais to be moved to wing.

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01-28-2013, 09:38 AM
  #81
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lol at people attacking Eller to defend Desharnais. It's kind of pathetic how a team with limited forward talent has a fanbase that wants to chase their forwards out of town to prop up their favourite. Reminds me of the we "must" trade Plekanec threads last year.

Both Desharnais and Eller are struggling. Desharnais is overmatched in a harder minutes role, especially with his wingers failing to produce, Eller has zero confidence and no role on the team. Realistically, neither one has a future on this team at this rate.

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01-28-2013, 09:47 AM
  #82
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lol at people attacking Eller to defend Desharnais. It's kind of pathetic how a team with limited forward talent has a fanbase that wants to chase their forwards out of town to prop up their favourite. Reminds me of the we "must" trade Plekanec threads last year.

Both Desharnais and Eller are struggling. Desharnais is overmatched in a harder minutes role, especially with his wingers failing to produce, Eller has zero confidence and no role on the team. Realistically, neither one has a future on this team at this rate.
No one wants to chase Eller. DD on the other hand...

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01-28-2013, 09:50 AM
  #83
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Nah, Plekanec wasn't made expendable by DD. Drafting a couple stars in the draft is why people wanted to trade Plekanec. There was much talk on HF about Plekanec for Anaheim's 6th overall in order to get Gally and Forsberg for example or Gally and Grigorenko.

In either case, that wasn't my point. For instance, DAChampion made a thread about how Eller is going to be much better and constantly hates on DD. I await his thread saying Eller will ultimately be a 3rd line center. It won't happen though.

There seems to be an extreme bias against DD. Granted, I don't believe he's a 1st line center either. I think he can play the part but will never be a true #1C. When I say play the part I refer to last year. Still, guy should have 2 points in 4 games(he should've got the assist). If anything Cole got 2 assists he should've never had, giving him 0 points. Where's the thread that Cole's 35 goals were based on soft minutes? It's very easy for you to say there's expectations on DD now(he was hated last year too though) but is there none on last year's leading goal scorer?

That is pretty much my point. There's no thread criticizing the 'great dane' or Erik Cole's lacklustre play.

By all means, criticize DD. The guy needs to do more, everyone knows that. Just asking people to be fair and not turn a blind eye when their favourite player just isn't that good either.

One thing I never understood is DD-Cole-Max played together the majority of last year. When DD made a point, soft minutes. When Max made a point, future star?
Stop looking at production and look at the way they play. I'm not a huge Cole fan to be honest, but he is big and fast and creates a lot of offensive by himself and his ability to drive to the net with insane bursts of speed. Patch has a nasty shot and a quick release. Yes, both had soft minutes as well, but those skillsets will translate to any situation.

DD was able to succeed last year because, mainly, he has a terrific hockey IQ. Similar to Giroux in that sense. Both players lack the physical tools (skating, shot, size), but they are lightyears ahead of most NHLers when it comes to hockey sense, and thus, they are able to stay out of situations where their faults really hurt them.

The problem is that in the NHL, there are a lot of really good players, so regardless of how smart DD is, if he's playing against good enough players, it won't matter, because he gets manhandled and outskated versus most other players. I'm not bashing him, this is just a reality and DD himself knows it, which is why his game is to avoid situations where he needs to carry the puck or beat someone one on one.

Compare that to a Cole or a Pacioretty, their games are largely based on their size, speed and shot. Pacioretty doesn't do much besides shoot the puck. He can do that no matter who he's playing against, especially because he's so physically superior compared to most other players.

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01-28-2013, 09:51 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
No one wants to chase Eller. DD on the other hand...
But keep in mind that this is not representative of the Habs fanbase. This is only representative of the Habs hfboard.

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01-28-2013, 09:51 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
No one wants to chase Eller. DD on the other hand...
Don't kid yourself...Eller is "the guy" the media will focus on this year to chase out of town. There's always one or two.

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01-28-2013, 09:53 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
No one wants to chase Eller. DD on the other hand...
Have you seen the Eller thread and the comparisons to Moen of all people? There's probably more DD "chasers" on the other hand, you are right, between the size obsession and everyone pencilling Desharnais in as the first center which wasn't fair to anyone, but I haven't seen any homophobic slurs against DD the way one poster was describing Eller in the game thread, another blamed him for the tying goal (which was Cole and Desharnais' fault). In this thread you have a Desharnais fan calling Eller "lazy". Just as someone like DA might dismiss Desharnais and call for more Eller, it's going both ways.

Both are the victims of hyperbole, it seems there's no such thing as middle ground when projecting what kind of role Eller can potentially play, while with Desharnais when you see posts here describing him as a better playmaker as Eric Staal, that's where the backlash comes from.

Regarding Desharnais, if there's anyone who is threatening him right now it's not Eller, it's Galchenyuk. Because whatever arbitrary numbers you want to call the lines, so far this season it's been Prust and the Gally's to benefit from softer matchups.

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Don't kid yourself...Eller is "the guy" the media will focus on this year to chase out of town. There's always one or two.
It's already started, AC has directed its hate between Eller and Subban so far.

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01-28-2013, 09:55 AM
  #87
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*Sigh* Pleks and his line has a full bad year and gets a pass while DD has 4 bad games and everyone is up in arms. Really? Not surprising I guess considering people were yelling and screaming after the first game how last years DD was just a mirage. If you can forgive last years Pleks, I think it's prudent to give DD a little slack.

And for the record, I don't think he should be a 1st C unless he improves on last years results. Then again, I don't consider Plek to be a first line C either (though I do think Plek is more important to the team as a 2nd C then DD playing in any other line).

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01-28-2013, 09:56 AM
  #88
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Desharnais may be the best playmaker on the team but he's not a better playmaker than Staal The guy is an All-Star. Size is very important when you're the #1 center and you're facing other teams top centers.
Staal is obviously a better player than Desharnais.

But still, 2 seasons ago, Staal had 296 shots on net and Cole 201.

Last season, Cole had 241. 40 more shots than the year before... that's 5 more goals with a 12% shooting percentage.

Pacioretty had 286 shots. DD had only 98.

Obviously, a winger playing with DD will get more shots on net, because he's got a pass-first mentality. That's why DD is good with wingers who like to shot. That's also why that line meshed so well last year. It's not ridiculous to suggest Desharnais helped Cole get a career year.

This is also why I'm not sure Eller is a better fit with 2 shooting winger, but that's another story.

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01-28-2013, 09:58 AM
  #89
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Not really a slow start, thats the kind of game I expect out of DD, last year was an exception he had a line that was on fire, I doubt they repeat this year but who knows.

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01-28-2013, 09:58 AM
  #90
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PS Regarding "... We all know the main reason behind this blind hate, anyway. It's the same story over and over again, on this board...": I agree but to be fair, itís always the same 4-5 posters who seem to have a major fixation on the beautiful French language! Despite those 4-5 posters, hfboards remains a very cool hockey board imo.
To be fair, I think it's a little more than 4 or 5 posters, and some of them are actually moderators. I know for sure that they are annoying and persistent enough to keep me away from this board, most of the time (which is sad because there's a lot of quality posters here).

The day I'll come on the Habs board without seeing any hating thread on a French canadian player has not arrived, yet.

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01-28-2013, 10:00 AM
  #91
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Staal is obviously a better player than Desharnais.

But still, 2 seasons ago, Staal had 296 shots on net and Cole 201.

Last season, Cole had 241. 40 more shots than the year before... that's 5 more goals with a 12% shooting percentage.

Pacioretty had 286 shots. DD had only 98.

Obviously, a winger playing with DD will get more shots on net, because he's got a pass-first mentality. That's why DD is good with wingers who like to shot. That's also why that line meshed so well last year. It's not ridiculous to suggest Desharnais helped Cole get a career year.

This is also why I'm not sure Eller is a better fit with 2 shooting winger, but that's another story.
When Cole played with Staal, he also played against the oppositions best forwards. Last year this was not the case, since Plekanec and even Eller faced stronger lines on average.

This doesn't mean Desharnais' passing didn't help Cole make the most of his siituation. But saying he had a career year last year, might be superficially true, but it ignores context.

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*Sigh* Pleks and his line has a full bad year and gets a pass while DD has 4 bad games and everyone is up in arms. Really? Not surprising I guess considering people were yelling and screaming after the first game how last years DD was just a mirage. If you can forgive last years Pleks, I think it's prudent to give DD a little slack.

And for the record, I don't think he should be a 1st C unless he improves on last years results. Then again, I don't consider Plek to be a first line C either (though I do think Plek is more important to the team as a 2nd C then DD playing in any other line).
Pleks got a pass? Did you not see this forum last season?

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01-28-2013, 10:02 AM
  #92
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Stop looking at production and look at the way they play. I'm not a huge Cole fan to be honest, but he is big and fast and creates a lot of offensive by himself and his ability to drive to the net with insane bursts of speed. Patch has a nasty shot and a quick release. Yes, both had soft minutes as well, but those skillsets will translate to any situation.

DD was able to succeed last year because, mainly, he has a terrific hockey IQ. Similar to Giroux in that sense. Both players lack the physical tools (skating, shot, size), but they are lightyears ahead of most NHLers when it comes to hockey sense, and thus, they are able to stay out of situations where their faults really hurt them.

The problem is that in the NHL, there are a lot of really good players, so regardless of how smart DD is, if he's playing against good enough players, it won't matter, because he gets manhandled and outskated versus most other players. I'm not bashing him, this is just a reality and DD himself knows it, which is why his game is to avoid situations where he needs to carry the puck or beat someone one on one.

Compare that to a Cole or a Pacioretty, their games are largely based on their size, speed and shot. Pacioretty doesn't do much besides shoot the puck. He can do that no matter who he's playing against, especially because he's so physically superior compared to most other players.
You're missing the point. When have you ever heard Max and "easy minutes" in same sentence. Never? Pretty much. Regardless of what people percieve he can do vs elite or 4th line talent, it's taboo to mention it despite him, cole and DD all getting career highs. The only person worth bringing up with the soft minutes tag is DD. Does it mean Cole nor Max are good or can't produce? Absolutely not. Just the same, they may not be 30 goal scorers in regular minutes either but that hasn't stopped projections of 30+ goals for max or cole.

Besides, you mistake me for someone who is saying DD is without flaw. He's small, he's not an incredible skater, not physical and so on. Yah, I know. I never said to ignore these things. All I really asked for is why someone like Eller or Cole can get away with slow starts but DD can't? Perhaps in the Cole case he's a vet with a proven record but Eller? ***** lol

This long conversation is based on me simply asking why aren't all the players judged fairly. There's nothing else to it. If DD sucks, say it. I really really don't care. I just find it hypocrital for some to turn around and say Eller's got 'it' or max didnt have easy minutes and so on. What are people trying to prove? Who can disprove the other person but using selective stats and specific timing?

I'm just saying, many players haven't produced and that's not an excuse for DD. I never said DD is off the hook, i'm just asking why other people aren't on it too. I think there's a big difference between saying DD can do no wrong because others are the same and saying DD hasn't been good along with some others and they ALL need to pick it up.

In your whole post, you brought up Cole and I agree. Cole has insane drive close to the net. Strong power forward with insane burst of speed in close. Yet, you never spoke about Eller. Why is it that when Eller doesn't produce, it's not his fault but when DD doesn't produce it is?

At end of the day, we desperately still lack a true #1C. Gally looks awesome. I hope it will be him. As for me, I don't care if DD is traded or whatever, it's never been about that. All I can ask for is that people fairly judge the players.

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01-28-2013, 10:06 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by IWalkThroughWalls View Post
Staal is obviously a better player than Desharnais.

But still, 2 seasons ago, Staal had 296 shots on net and Cole 201.

Last season, Cole had 241. 40 more shots than the year before... that's 5 more goals with a 12% shooting percentage.

Pacioretty had 286 shots. DD had only 98.

Obviously, a winger playing with DD will get more shots on net, because he's got a pass-first mentality. That's why DD is good with wingers who like to shot. That's also why that line meshed so well last year. It's not ridiculous to suggest Desharnais helped Cole get a career year.

This is also why I'm not sure Eller is a better fit with 2 shooting winger, but that's another story.
That's why I'm suggesting DD on the wing. He can still create there and you don't have to be big on the wing as you do at center. Get a center who can score goals (ehh hmm Galchenyuk) and put DD on the wing to feed him. With the cycle game players move around anyways. It just makes more sense in the face-off circle (yes Galchenyuk is poor at face offs right now but it's the premise) and when back-checking and you're facing bigger centers.

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01-28-2013, 10:06 AM
  #94
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The day I'll come on the Habs board without seeing any hating thread on a French canadian player has not arrived, yet.
When you accuse this of being a plot by us anglos against all French Canadian players, you are making this situation far worse. The problem isn't that Desharnais is Quebecois, it's that his potential is more as a Briere than Giroux, which isn't a problem if he's used correctly but it means he's a situational player and not a superstar.

Most of us want to see Desharnais on the wing because with Galchenyuk taking up the soft exploitation role for now, that line would be more effective with a two-way center. This is not about burning DD at the stake as a sacrifice to Stephen Harper. There's francophone and anglophones on both sides of the DD debate.


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01-28-2013, 10:07 AM
  #95
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But keep in mind that this is not representative of the Habs fanbase. This is only representative of the Habs hfboard.
Perhaps. This forum is very trendy. Goes with the motions.

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Don't kid yourself...Eller is "the guy" the media will focus on this year to chase out of town. There's always one or two.
Perhaps, but you just know it will strengthen the resolve of the white knights here.

Either way, **** the media. They are idioits. Eller belongs on this team and can have a future here so don't wanna hear their garbage. If Eller fails, they sure but media is always premature, hate it.

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Have you seen the Eller thread and the comparisons to Moen of all people? There's probably more DD "chasers" on the other hand, you are right, between the size obsession and everyone pencilling Desharnais in as the first center which wasn't fair to anyone, but I haven't seen any homophobic slurs against DD the way one poster was describing Eller in the game thread, another blamed him for the tying goal (which was Cole and Desharnais' fault). In this thread you have a Desharnais fan calling Eller "lazy". Just as someone like DA might dismiss Desharnais and call for more Eller, it's going both ways.

Both are the victims of hyperbole, it seems there's no such thing as middle ground when projecting what kind of role Eller can potentially play, while with Desharnais when you see posts here describing him as a better playmaker as Eric Staal, that's where the backlash comes from.

Regarding Desharnais, if there's anyone who is threatening him right now it's not Eller, it's Galchenyuk. Because whatever arbitrary numbers you want to call the lines, so far this season it's been Prust and the Gally's to benefit from softer matchups.



It's already started, AC has directed its hate between Eller and Subban so far.
Not sure why people act that way tbh. I like Eller too. Even so, people get so emotional and act like jerks over stupidity. Eller is still raw, what do people expect? He was rushed in montreal.

Please, don't talk about AC. I hate RDS shows.

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01-28-2013, 10:11 AM
  #96
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Not sure why people act that way tbh. I like Eller too. Even so, people get so emotional and act like jerks over stupidity. Eller is still raw, what do people expect? He was rushed in montreal.

Please, don't talk about AC. I hate RDS shows.
And this is the probably the most fair description of Eller here, and if anything with this year being a time to experiment, now is not the time to try both Eller and Desharnais in different roles, because what we have seen so far from them they both have been out of their element.

And I hate to bring up AC myself but I think it's a lot of the cause of over the top hostility against Desharnais.

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01-28-2013, 10:11 AM
  #97
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To be fair, I think it's a little more than 4 or 5 posters, and some of them are actually moderators. I know for sure that they are annoying and persistent enough to keep me away from this board, most of the time (which is sad because there's a lot of quality posters here).

The day I'll come on the Habs board without seeing any hating thread on a French canadian player has not arrived, yet.
You guys really not to stop with that stuff. I'm anglo and I like DD, leblanc and so on.

These types of things are real and they occur but not even HF is bad enough that you can make a story out of it.

As for the mods part, not true. Many of the mods who came through the habs forum have a french background.

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01-28-2013, 10:16 AM
  #98
DDs not undersized
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
When you accuse this of being a plot by us anglos against all French Canadian players, you are making this situation far worse. The problem isn't that Desharnais is Quebecois, it's that his potential is more as a Briere than Giroux, which isn't a problem if he's used correctly but it means he's a situational player and not a superstar.

Most of us want to see Desharnais on the wing because with Galchenyuk taking up the soft exploitation role for now, that line would be more effective with a two-way center. This is not about burning DD at the stake as a sacrifice to Stephen Harper.
I don't mind those saying DD should play on the wing, as long as they bring evidence that he would be more successful there. But since he has never played there, and has always been very successful at center, I never understood where this idea came from.

Why not Subban as a winger, while we're at it?

The posters that are annoying me are those who find any excuse to say that DD is not as good as it seems, or that he makes the team worse, or that he should be traded, or that his success is everybody's fault but his. I mean, the posters who don't know anything about hockey and who just want to get rid of some players because they can't stand seeing a French Canadian having success. I'm sorry that I have to say it that clearly and put on name on it, but this is real, some people here really think this way, and here hockey arguments are useless.

And I'm not aiming at anglos particularly. Actually, you would be surprised to see how the worse French Canadian haters are French Canadians themselves. See Samuel L. Jackson in Django Unchained, and you'll understand what I mean.


Last edited by DDs not undersized: 01-28-2013 at 10:22 AM.
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01-28-2013, 10:25 AM
  #99
HTTP 400 Bad Request
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
That's why I'm suggesting DD on the wing. He can still create there and you don't have to be big on the wing as you do at center. Get a center who can score goals (ehh hmm Galchenyuk) and put DD on the wing to feed him. With the cycle game players move around anyways. It just makes more sense in the face-off circle (yes Galchenyuk is poor at face offs right now but it's the premise) and when back-checking and you're facing bigger centers.
I'm not against it. Anyway, DD isn't exactly great at faceoffs either.

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01-28-2013, 10:27 AM
  #100
pepperMonkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Pleks got a pass? Did you not see this forum last season?
Well, okay, he didn't get a pass per say but...
There was never a question of him being a real NHL'er (well, okay, there were only a few delusional fans that felt that way about DD because of his size.).
There was no question that of Pleks being a real C (1st or 2nd or 3rd C).
There was no question that Pleks was only 'riding' on the success of his wingers.
Not so much with DD.
The only real argument last year with Pleks was whether or not he was 1st line C or 2nd line C. And I think most people felt if he wasn't a 1st line C, he would and is a great 2nd line C.

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