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Old
01-28-2013, 09:50 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
They're getting beat by experience due to being inexperienced. Basically what he said. I dare anybody to watch the Calgary game again and challenge anything that was said.
Vets are just as much to blame for combining a no-risk-no-reward style while still taking several dumb penalties. I prefer the high-risk-high-reward style with actual learning from your mistakes.

It's still rust over inexperience. The top line is making things happen, Yakupov will find his place. Hopefully the vets round into shape and chip in by scoring maybe one goal among them in the next week.

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01-28-2013, 10:00 AM
  #27
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I know that a lot posters love to pile on Horcoff and a lot of times it's warranted but what did he say that was wrong? He's right. Thus far, it looks like the team hasn't learned a thing and inexperience IS a factor. I don't think because he brought up inexperience that he is blaming the kids fully, he did say "WE" haven't learned.

Dubnyk is right too, the D left him out to dry completely. It would be nice if he made a big save once in a while to bail out the defense but they have been horribad in the losses, hard to blame Dubnyk too much although he deserves some of the blame as well.
I don't see the problem with the comments, it's another case of piling on Horcoff because he's $5.5 mil/yr Horcoff.

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01-28-2013, 10:12 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TayBerle HopKov View Post
It's the fact he's the captain, and doesn't take responsibility for the team's losses like a real captain should. Yes, inexperience and youth are factors in our lack of a solid form, but he is the leader of the oilers, it is his job to guide the kids, not allocate the reason for losing games to the kids all the time.

If he really listened to the fans and the criticism, he would've changed and improved his game by now, but instead, he is stuck in his own world where he is King Hockey
So you think he's not including himself when he says "we"? It's like the opposite of the royal we.

Remember interviews are cliches and stuff said to have something to say to the reporters, it doesnt mean anything. Look at what's happening on the ice and in the locker room.

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01-28-2013, 10:16 AM
  #29
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Tone down the Horcoff hate. He's not gonna shoulder all the blame, nor should he

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01-28-2013, 10:17 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post
Vets are just as much to blame for combining a no-risk-no-reward style while still taking several dumb penalties. I prefer the high-risk-high-reward style with actual learning from your mistakes.

It's still rust over inexperience. The top line is making things happen, Yakupov will find his place. Hopefully the vets round into shape and chip in by scoring maybe one goal among them in the next week.
Of course one could argue the vets are just as much to blame. But we have several young players now who are the best young players in the world. They are supposed to be holding their own. Especially when you have a unit comprised of two world number 1 picks, a 75pt player, and one of the best young D prospects in the world playing as a unit. That unit should be owning, every game. Theres been prolonged stretches where aside from eberle and J Schultz they've looked ineffective and unable to find answers. I'm a big Hall fan but he hasn't been much in 4 games. needs to be more effective.

As far as Vets on this club what great, reliable vets do we have? We have middling vets and mostly with a lot of mileage. Reality is Horc shouldn't be saying much because he probably shouldn't be captain and shouldn't have had the contract he was awarded. I can certainly see both sides.

I do wonder sometimes whether the VETS on this club basically wait to see what the kids are able to accomplish. I think if the Vets do see that they'll row harder as well. But I don't think the vets are initiating success right now. Not saying thats appropriate either, just saying. Horc and Smyth at this point may just as easily be counting stacks of money and wondering how to get out of Fort Knox gracefully with fortune in tact.

Just as an aside, any not making any direct comparison, just a story, but the 1990 Edmonton Oilers were a very interesting story of what very nearly never was. The team was facing the Winnipeg Jets in first round and a still excellent squad was mostly getting beat to the puck by the Jets. We were down 3-1 in the series and losing the 5th game. To that point the Vets weren't playing exactly inspiring hockey. I really think it took some turn around from Ranford, and an upstart kidline to really help the vets maintain interest in what would be a long arduous climb. Once that team got rolling they were fairly unstoppable. But the biggest question was in the Winnipeg series and whether the vets would buy in to another long playoffs that year. The kids helped it along the way and were key in that playoff run. They weren't even ringers like the ones we have now. But of course the remaining vets were world class.


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Old
01-28-2013, 10:18 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
They are young and inexperienced. How many times have you seen the kids dump the puck when they have no where to go? They don't, instead they try beat the defenders and turn the puck over at the line. Need to get the puck deep and on net, not lose it at the blueline.

Prv seems to have realized this though.
I have noticed this as well. The young guys don't weem to want to try the dump and chase, which has been a staple in hockey, like forever. The reason for this, I believe is that they can't compete physically in the corners and along the boards due to their size.

Horcoff, to me is actually playing better so far this season, which is a surprise as I am not a fan. His commentsd can be taken which ever way you want, but no one here knows what he was REALLY meaning by those statements.

Put away your pitch forks, he doesn't come to HF to listen to any of us.

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01-28-2013, 10:20 AM
  #32
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People are reading way too much into this - and this is coming from someone who often reads too much into things

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01-28-2013, 10:24 AM
  #33
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Everyone move along. Nothing to see here.

Dumb thread is dumb.

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01-28-2013, 10:24 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by c4fn8d View Post
What I saw? Horcoff interference with a Flame skating through the crease causing a penalty. I saw Belanger pulling on a jersey of a Flame who beat him causing another powerplay for the Flames. I see an ineffective bottom six who still have no goals in 4 games.

I also saw a 3 on 2 rush where Horc tried to skate it in rather than pass to an open Hall.

You are right Horc, your learning is done. Don't take dumb penalties. I know why you did it, because you are frustrated. But that penalty was selfish and you know it.

Does anyone think Smyth or Horcoff will score 10 goals this season? Do they have any shots on net yet?
1 st of all, Horcoff call was a farce, If you actually watched it close. Also, Eberle got called on the same kind of play as Belanger, only it wasn't trying to stop a scoring chance in front of his own net. No it was leaving the calgary zone. You can cherry pick and make up what ever your vetran hateing mind wants, but at least take a reality check and get the facts straight.

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01-28-2013, 10:27 AM
  #35
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Dubnyk calling people out? Good Lord.

If he would do his part well, then maybe he could cast stones.

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Old
01-28-2013, 10:29 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Truth Movement View Post
Everyone move along. Nothing to see here.

Dumb thread is dumb.
Guy joins the board one day, starting a thread the next. Always said there should be some moratorium on threadstart ability. Say have 3months on board, 100 posts, or something before threadstart is allowed.

Would save a lot of board pollution.

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Old
01-28-2013, 10:56 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Njoy Oilers View Post
1 st of all, Horcoff call was a farce, If you actually watched it close. Also, Eberle got called on the same kind of play as Belanger, only it wasn't trying to stop a scoring chance in front of his own net. No it was leaving the calgary zone. You can cherry pick and make up what ever your vetran hateing mind wants, but at least take a reality check and get the facts straight.
The op quotes Horcoff talking about it not being about inexperience rather than just playing smarter. The points that I speak about are from veteran players (Horcoff included) who should know better. The call on Horcoff was not a farce it was a penalty and he knew it. Belanger was beat fair and square and he doesn't have the legs to keep up so he pulled the sweater.

The Vets need to do a better job of staying out of the penalty box. If you cannot contribute to the score-sheet at least don't take dumb penalties.

I wasn't cherry picking I was referring to the actual material posted. It seems like you are cherry picking more than me.

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01-28-2013, 11:11 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by c4fn8d View Post
What I saw? Horcoff interference with a Flame skating through the crease causing a penalty. I saw Belanger pulling on a jersey of a Flame who beat him causing another powerplay for the Flames. I see an ineffective bottom six who still have no goals in 4 games.

I also saw a 3 on 2 rush where Horc tried to skate it in rather than pass to an open Hall.

You are right Horc, your learning is done. Don't take dumb penalties. I know why you did it, because you are frustrated. But that penalty was selfish and you know it.

Does anyone think Smyth or Horcoff will score 10 goals this season? Do they have any shots on net yet?
This.

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01-28-2013, 11:30 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by c4fn8d View Post
What I saw? Horcoff interference with a Flame skating through the crease causing a penalty. I saw Belanger pulling on a jersey of a Flame who beat him causing another powerplay for the Flames. I see an ineffective bottom six who still have no goals in 4 games.

I also saw a 3 on 2 rush where Horc tried to skate it in rather than pass to an open Hall.

You are right Horc, your learning is done. Don't take dumb penalties. I know why you did it, because you are frustrated. But that penalty was selfish and you know it.

Does anyone think Smyth or Horcoff will score 10 goals this season? Do they have any shots on net yet?
Eberle also did the exact same thing to Iginla and took a penalty for it. How come no mention of this? I guess because he's one of the shiny new kids.

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01-28-2013, 11:38 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by c4fn8d View Post
The op quotes Horcoff talking about it not being about inexperience rather than just playing smarter. The points that I speak about are from veteran players (Horcoff included) who should know better. The call on Horcoff was not a farce it was a penalty and he knew it. Belanger was beat fair and square and he doesn't have the legs to keep up so he pulled the sweater.

The Vets need to do a better job of staying out of the penalty box. If you cannot contribute to the score-sheet at least don't take dumb penalties.

I wasn't cherry picking I was referring to the actual material posted. It seems like you are cherry picking more than me.
What actions did Horcoff take to cause that penalty?

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01-28-2013, 11:45 AM
  #41
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i am not a horcoff fan, but wow.. seems like people are just digging for reason to hate

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01-28-2013, 11:48 AM
  #42
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I think we are forgetting that a changing of the guard is happening this year. We all hated Renney because he never let the kids play, and played the vets too much. Now we have Krueger. He is playing the kids against the best lines and giving the vets lesser time and competition.

Sadly I think this change should have been made over the course of this year, not such a drastic change to start. Horc, Smyth and ?? should have played more against Thortons line.

I am not totally against this decision but I think this is causing a divide in the room. We can expect a lot of ups and downs this year as every learns there new roll.

I also expect big changes this off season in the vet population.

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01-28-2013, 11:49 AM
  #43
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Where were the pitch forks when Eberle said the PK had to be better during the SJ game? He doesn't PK.

Perhaps people like to cherry pick information that fits their established opinions.

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01-28-2013, 11:55 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Of course one could argue the vets are just as much to blame. But we have several young players now who are the best young players in the world. They are supposed to be holding their own. Especially when you have a unit comprised of two world number 1 picks, a 75pt player, and one of the best young D prospects in the world playing as a unit. That unit should be owning, every game. Theres been prolonged stretches where aside from eberle and J Schultz they've looked ineffective and unable to find answers. I'm a big Hall fan but he hasn't been much in 4 games. needs to be more effective.

As far as Vets on this club what great, reliable vets do we have? We have middling vets and mostly with a lot of mileage. Reality is Horc shouldn't be saying much because he probably shouldn't be captain and shouldn't have had the contract he was awarded. I can certainly see both sides.

I do wonder sometimes whether the VETS on this club basically wait to see what the kids are able to accomplish. I think if the Vets do see that they'll row harder as well. But I don't think the vets are initiating success right now. Not saying thats appropriate either, just saying. Horc and Smyth at this point may just as easily be counting stacks of money and wondering how to get out of Fort Knox gracefully with fortune in tact.

Just as an aside, any not making any direct comparison, just a story, but the 1990 Edmonton Oilers were a very interesting story of what very nearly never was. The team was facing the Winnipeg Jets in first round and a still excellent squad was mostly getting beat to the puck by the Jets. We were down 3-1 in the series and losing the 5th game. To that point the Vets weren't playing exactly inspiring hockey. I really think it took some turn around from Ranford, and an upstart kidline to really help the vets maintain interest in what would be a long arduous climb. Once that team got rolling they were fairly unstoppable. But the biggest question was in the Winnipeg series and whether the vets would buy in to another long playoffs that year. The kids helped it along the way and were key in that playoff run. They weren't even ringers like the ones we have now. But of course the remaining vets were world class.
Can't disagree with anything said here. Well put.

One of my all-time favorite moments was seeing the three kids, missing teeth, bruised up, holding the cup together in the dressing room.

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01-28-2013, 12:51 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by c4fn8d View Post
The op quotes Horcoff talking about it not being about inexperience rather than just playing smarter. The points that I speak about are from veteran players (Horcoff included) who should know better. The call on Horcoff was not a farce it was a penalty and he knew it. Belanger was beat fair and square and he doesn't have the legs to keep up so he pulled the sweater.

The Vets need to do a better job of staying out of the penalty box. If you cannot contribute to the score-sheet at least don't take dumb penalties.

I wasn't cherry picking I was referring to the actual material posted. It seems like you are cherry picking more than me.
Again. The call on Horcoff was a horse **** call that has been commented on numerous times is a weak excuse to rip on Horcoff. Lots of other reasons, but that one is weak. The whole team took it in the face from the refs the last 2 games. So to just pick on the vets seems to be a great way to feed the haters ego's.
So does Eberle not have the legs to keep up? He did the same play as Belanger, only worse. Funny how thats over looked. Cherry picking my freind.

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Old
01-28-2013, 12:52 PM
  #46
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How should Horcoff take responsibility for others mistakes and lack of attention to detail?

Should he take responsibility for the kids not helping OKC have a better record in the AHL as well.

Fact of the matter is these kids pay little attention to all zone play and are often getting burned by veteran teams that can steal their lunch money.

If I go into work today should I take responsibility for every coworkers mistakes last week that happen through lack of on the job experience. Should I overwork to try to compensate and neglect my own work?

How do I be a team member with a collection of individuals that don't yet know what its like to be a member of a team because they haven't bought in?

I'll give people a clue here. Ryan Smyth can play many places in the world and have young kids, established players, taking cues and responding to his leadership. He recently did this in the Davos cup where he was instrumental in leading the way. But Smyth will only ever go as far as the rest of the club is prepared to take it. If he gets a notion that others aren't following its possible some frustration or confusion sets in.

The specific trouble with a team where the young players are the stars is that they are possibly susceptible to thinking they have no veteran that can lead them. Other clubs we've played don't have this problem. No problem with kids listening to Thornton and Marleau because they're two of the best veterans in the league. Similarly with the Sedins, similarly with Igninla. We have a bunch of young talented forwards, but we don't have a veteran star forward to lead them. I wonder whether the kids tend to turn their nose at Smyth, Horcoff, or even some of the vets down in OKC. Would that be Smyth and Horcoff's fault specifically?

If your a young star do you listen readily?

We've had coach after coach here suggesting the team isn't buying in. At some point of losing perhaps young players could be more amenable to listening to team concept, strategies, and team system play and not approaching the game as individuals?
Hmm I think from now on when people disagree with me I'll just sit tight and wait for Replacement to reply (assuming we're on the same side of the issue, of course ). Well put.

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01-28-2013, 12:56 PM
  #47
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Remember how much we all hated Moreau for making comments like this? He was a Golden God and the rest of the team were saps? (Well .. turns out there were quite a few saps)

But anyway, I think that if you have the 'C' on the Oilers of all teams, this kind of talk is inexcusable. ESPECIALLY if you're not Wayne Gretzky. Horcoff isn't going to lead ANYONE 'by example' to a stanley cup, or a presidents trophy, or a division title, or a victory in a game, or a goal. Maybe he can get a shot on net. If this type of player is Captain, they better learn to lead with their brain on and off the ice. They aren't allowed to say crap like this, in my books.
What part of the "WE are inexperienced" did you fail to understand?

The team IS inexperienced. the team is young. The team is giving up way too many chances defensively. Especially the young guys need to understand that sometimes dumping the puck in so you can get a line change is a good thing.

Did you watch the Kelly Hrudey breakdown of the Calgary goal where Jeff Petry jumped in too deep and then failed to recover back in time to mark his man (who scored)?

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01-28-2013, 01:03 PM
  #48
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What part of the "WE are inexperienced" did you fail to understand?

The team IS inexperienced. the team is young. The team is giving up way too many chances defensively. Especially the young guys need to understand that sometimes dumping the puck in so you can get a line change is a good thing.

Did you watch the Kelly Hrudey breakdown of the Calgary goal where Jeff Petry jumped in too deep and then failed to recover back in time to mark his man (who scored)?

As a leader, I don't think any of this stuff matters. As captain, I don't think it is necessarily his role to be candid with the media. We have had pious leaders in the past, who would shoulder the blame and deflect the blame off the kids. Even if you acknowledge the inexperience of the team, you must balance that by bringing up the lack of veteran presence, the need to personally shoulder more of the load and help the kids on their way. That is how you make a comment of this nature.

As Horcoff, you need to look at these moments as opportunities to deflect, opportunities to change the narrative, opportunities to make space for the kids to make mistakes and learn from them without being crucified. It is a lot to ask, but as I said before, if you are Captain of the Edmonton Oilers, and you're not going to win the game by yourself, you have to lead righteously and say/do the right thing.

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01-28-2013, 01:12 PM
  #49
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Of course one could argue the vets are just as much to blame. But we have several young players now who are the best young players in the world. They are supposed to be holding their own. Especially when you have a unit comprised of two world number 1 picks, a 75pt player, and one of the best young D prospects in the world playing as a unit. That unit should be owning, every game. Theres been prolonged stretches where aside from eberle and J Schultz they've looked ineffective and unable to find answers. I'm a big Hall fan but he hasn't been much in 4 games. needs to be more effective.

As far as Vets on this club what great, reliable vets do we have? We have middling vets and mostly with a lot of mileage. Reality is Horc shouldn't be saying much because he probably shouldn't be captain and shouldn't have had the contract he was awarded. I can certainly see both sides.

I do wonder sometimes whether the VETS on this club basically wait to see what the kids are able to accomplish. I think if the Vets do see that they'll row harder as well. But I don't think the vets are initiating success right now. Not saying thats appropriate either, just saying. Horc and Smyth at this point may just as easily be counting stacks of money and wondering how to get out of Fort Knox gracefully with fortune in tact.

Just as an aside, any not making any direct comparison, just a story, but the 1990 Edmonton Oilers were a very interesting story of what very nearly never was. The team was facing the Winnipeg Jets in first round and a still excellent squad was mostly getting beat to the puck by the Jets. We were down 3-1 in the series and losing the 5th game. To that point the Vets weren't playing exactly inspiring hockey. I really think it took some turn around from Ranford, and an upstart kidline to really help the vets maintain interest in what would be a long arduous climb. Once that team got rolling they were fairly unstoppable. But the biggest question was in the Winnipeg series and whether the vets would buy in to another long playoffs that year. The kids helped it along the way and were key in that playoff run. They weren't even ringers like the ones we have now. But of course the remaining vets were world class.
I remember that game... isn't it the one where Esa Tikkanen stepped in and read the riot act in the second period?

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01-28-2013, 01:13 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Njoy Oilers View Post
Again. The call on Horcoff was a horse **** call that has been commented on numerous times is a weak excuse to rip on Horcoff. Lots of other reasons, but that one is weak. The whole team took it in the face from the refs the last 2 games. So to just pick on the vets seems to be a great way to feed the haters ego's.
So does Eberle not have the legs to keep up? He did the same play as Belanger, only worse. Funny how thats over looked. Cherry picking my freind.
I haven't really bashed Horcoff at all. Go back and read through my post history. My point is that Horcoff is the one complaining about it not being about inexperience but playing smarter. I then point out examples where he needs to take his own advice. Does Eberle? Sure. But Eberle is not the one who is publicly thowing the youngsters under the bus.

I can certainly understand why Horcoff is frustrated though. I watch him play.

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