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Tampa Bay Rays not long for this world?

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01-27-2013, 04:11 PM
  #26
Faidh ar Rud Eigin
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BC Place used to be able to host baseball, even if it doesn't anymore it probably could with minor renovations. Vancouver is huge market, and Blue Jays games in Seattle draw sizable numbers of fans from Greater Vancouver.

I could see that working, with BC Place being a temporary solution for 5-10 years till a baseball only stadium gets build.

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01-27-2013, 04:39 PM
  #27
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I don't think Vancouver is a serious option. I think the Mariners would be more than upset about that and the metro area has a 2.3 million population, which would make it one of MLB's smallest markets. Charlotte is at 2.4 million - in my opinion we should only be moving MLB to markets with the potential to support a $100 million payroll, not small-market teams living off the revenue sharing teat.

IMO Montreal is the only city with the capability to do that but I don't think Montreal is anywhere close to pushing for an MLB team yet. It'll happen in time but not yet.

I think it's telling that no rich guy or city is making a real genuine push for MLB. I think all of the proposed candidate cities (Portland, LV, San Antonio, Charlotte) all have huge gaping flaws. Charlotte's probably the best of the four but I could easily see people in ten years time thinking "Why did the Rays leave Tampa Bay for Charlotte?" Even now the whole "MLB for Charlotte" movement that's filing lawsuits about their new AAA stadium is really just one lawyer trying to get his name in the papers.

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01-27-2013, 06:28 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
I don't think Vancouver is a serious option. I think the Mariners would be more than upset about that and the metro area has a 2.3 million population, which would make it one of MLB's smallest markets. Charlotte is at 2.4 million - in my opinion we should only be moving MLB to markets with the potential to support a $100 million payroll, not small-market teams living off the revenue sharing teat.

IMO Montreal is the only city with the capability to do that but I don't think Montreal is anywhere close to pushing for an MLB team yet. It'll happen in time but not yet.

I think it's telling that no rich guy or city is making a real genuine push for MLB. I think all of the proposed candidate cities (Portland, LV, San Antonio, Charlotte) all have huge gaping flaws. Charlotte's probably the best of the four but I could easily see people in ten years time thinking "Why did the Rays leave Tampa Bay for Charlotte?" Even now the whole "MLB for Charlotte" movement that's filing lawsuits about their new AAA stadium is really just one lawyer trying to get his name in the papers.
If the US calculated metro populations the same way as Canada Vancouver would be more than twice as big as Charlotte, or vice versa. Besides, I don't think Seattle could say much, they aren't particular close and Seattle doesn't have exclusive television rights in BC anyway (It's shared with the Blue Jays).

Tampa Bay needs to move in the next 5 years, and right now the only places that can take a team are Montreal with their decrepit stadium, and Vancouver with a few changes to BC Place. There is no way the league is going to let one team fold but that's what's going to happen to Tampa if they don't find somewhere else to play.

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01-28-2013, 11:30 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
If the US calculated metro populations the same way as Canada Vancouver would be more than twice as big as Charlotte, or vice versa. Besides, I don't think Seattle could say much, they aren't particular close and Seattle doesn't have exclusive television rights in BC anyway (It's shared with the Blue Jays).

Tampa Bay needs to move in the next 5 years, and right now the only places that can take a team are Montreal with their decrepit stadium, and Vancouver with a few changes to BC Place. There is no way the league is going to let one team fold but that's what's going to happen to Tampa if they don't find somewhere else to play.
lol

Tampa Bay is profitable, the Canucks are more likely to fold than they are.

If metro areas were counted the same as in America Vancouver's metro area would be 5 million people? You would get a handful of extra towns but you wouldn't be close to 5 million people. It's simply not a large market, especially when you consider there is no chance of growing into a regional franchise since people in US border towns will root for the Mariners.

Also, BC Place is not a serious baseball facility. MLB isn't moving a team anywhere unless it's to a new stadium.

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01-28-2013, 11:52 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
lol

Tampa Bay is profitable, the Canucks are more likely to fold than they are.

If metro areas were counted the same as in America Vancouver's metro area would be 5 million people? You would get a handful of extra towns but you wouldn't be close to 5 million people. It's simply not a large market, especially when you consider there is no chance of growing into a regional franchise since people in US border towns will root for the Mariners.

Also, BC Place is not a serious baseball facility. MLB isn't moving a team anywhere unless it's to a new stadium.
The US any nearby (Within hundreds of kilometres) population center as part of their metropolitan area. For example, Canada measures Toronto's metropolitan population as a little over 5.5 million. If Ontario was a US state, they would count the Golden Horsehoe as the metro area, so places like Barrie and Kitchener-Waterloo would be part of it.

If BC was a US state, Victoria would be considered part of the Vancouver metropolitan area. I'm not that familiar with BC cities, but the entire lower mainland would be included, and likely portions of Washington state.

If you take out revenue sharing, Tampa Bay losses money. Even with their nearly non-existant payroll, they lose out. They have a weaker fanbase than the Lightning, their stadium is a detriment to the league. You are quit misinformed the Rays if you think the Canucks would fold before they would. The Rays have the worst TV numbers, the worst ticket sales, probably the lowest payroll now that the Pirates owner has started to spend money. The only reason they're still alive is revenue sharing, which is massive. If the MLB doesn't believe in them, that tells you something.

I don't see how Vancouver is "too small a market" when both the other markets brought up, Portland and Charlotte, are smaller if they calculated metro the same way? Canada can easily support two franchises, whether the second is in Vancouver or Montreal. You don't need to sell out a 50,000 seat stadium 81 times. BC Place is a state of the art facility and even if it's not intended for baseball, it's still better than arguably the worst stadium in North America, Tropicana Field. If they got a team, Vancouver would get a baseball only stadium in the next 10 years guarenteed.

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01-28-2013, 01:18 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
The US any nearby (Within hundreds of kilometres) population center as part of their metropolitan area. For example, Canada measures Toronto's metropolitan population as a little over 5.5 million. If Ontario was a US state, they would count the Golden Horsehoe as the metro area, so places like Barrie and Kitchener-Waterloo would be part of it.
If 15% of Barrie's or Kitchener's or Waterloo's population commutes to Toronto for work, then yes they would be considered part of the metropolitan area if they were in the U.S. Since both are over an hour away from Toronto I find it unlikely that 15% of the population does commute there.

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If BC was a US state, Victoria would be considered part of the Vancouver metropolitan area. I'm not that familiar with BC cities, but the entire lower mainland would be included, and likely portions of Washington state.
Considering it's 45 minutes to the closest U.S. city from Vancouver, I once again highly doubt that any county in Washington would be considered part of the Vancouver metro area.

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If you take out revenue sharing, Tampa Bay losses money. Even with their nearly non-existant payroll, they lose out. They have a weaker fanbase than the Lightning, their stadium is a detriment to the league.
Did you ever consider that they have a weaker fanbase because of their stadium and where it's located?

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Only 600,000 people live within a 30 minute drive of the Trop, lowest among all major league teams and lower than eight minor league teams.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgo...y-area/1272064

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You are quit misinformed the Rays if you think the Canucks would fold before they would. The Rays have the worst TV numbers, the worst ticket sales, probably the lowest payroll now that the Pirates owner has started to spend money. The only reason they're still alive is revenue sharing, which is massive.
You're the one who's quite misinformed. The Rays actually have very good TV ratings which shows interest but once again Tropicana Field is in a horrible location which is part of the reason they want a new stadium in a different location so it's accessible to more people who can get there in a reasonable amount of time.

http://www.draysbay.com/2012/10/8/34...istorical-2012

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/J.../MLB-RSNs.aspx

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/J.../MLB-RSNs.aspx

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2010...v-ratings-red/

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01-28-2013, 10:01 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
If 15% of Barrie's or Kitchener's or Waterloo's population commutes to Toronto for work, then yes they would be considered part of the metropolitan area if they were in the U.S. Since both are over an hour away from Toronto I find it unlikely that 15% of the population does commute there.



Considering it's 45 minutes to the closest U.S. city from Vancouver, I once again highly doubt that any county in Washington would be considered part of the Vancouver metro area.



Did you ever consider that they have a weaker fanbase because of their stadium and where it's located?



http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgo...y-area/1272064



You're the one who's quite misinformed. The Rays actually have very good TV ratings which shows interest but once again Tropicana Field is in a horrible location which is part of the reason they want a new stadium in a different location so it's accessible to more people who can get there in a reasonable amount of time.

http://www.draysbay.com/2012/10/8/34...istorical-2012

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/J.../MLB-RSNs.aspx

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/J.../MLB-RSNs.aspx

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2010...v-ratings-red/
I can find no sources that substantiate your claim that US measures metropolitan population based on 15% or more of the population commuting to that city. The sources I find say that they could any neighbour population centers as part of the metropolitan area if they are tied socioeconimically to the core urban center, or the core city having substantial infleunce over neighbouring centers. Those are very broad definitions, and it fits cities like Barrie and Kitchener-Waterloo being connected to Toronto. It also fits much of the Pacific northwest surrounding Vancouver, including communities along the BC-Washington border.

The location arguement has been one refuted by Tampa's owner himself as the primary reason (He point to economic reasons, and almost always says the location is an aggrevating issue, not the primary one). The bigger factor is how awful the stadium is, but it still doesn't explain horrible attendence. Tampa has had trouble giving tickets away. It's an awful stadium, in a poor location, however, that cannot account for the fact attendence is awful beyond belief.

Your links are strange, one doesn't even talk about the Rays, another says they are 5th in TV ratings (Something that seems off, and when look into it further, it is) and another that says they are a "thorn in the side of MLB" with how bad their fanbase is. Digging deaper, the reason the Dodgers and Angels are so "bad" for their TV ratings is their potential audience is massive, and they don't draw the same % of fans as smaller markets.

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The Phillies were the only team from a top ten market in the top five, averaging an 8.30 on Comcast SportsNet Philadelphia.
This quote illustrates that point. This doesn't mean that the bigger market teams have weaker fanbases, it means that it's harder to draw amazing ratings in bigger markets. Do you think an add during a Dodger's game goes for less than an ad during a Rays game?

The Rays are an atrocious market with a poor owner, who only make money because revenue sharing is so damned high in the MLB. They will be moved, who know's where that'll be, but it's ludicrous to suggest (As the person I replied to suggested) that the Canucks are in worse shape than the Rays, and that Vancouver and/or Montreal are bad markets. Either one of them could support a MLB team, and either one is a better option than Tampa Bay, and are no worse options than Portland or Charlotte.

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01-29-2013, 12:23 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I can find no sources that substantiate your claim that US measures metropolitan population based on 15% or more of the population commuting to that city. The sources I find say that they could any neighbour population centers as part of the metropolitan area if they are tied socioeconimically to the core urban center, or the core city having substantial infleunce over neighbouring centers. Those are very broad definitions, and it fits cities like Barrie and Kitchener-Waterloo being connected to Toronto. It also fits much of the Pacific northwest surrounding Vancouver, including communities along the BC-Washington border.
I could have sworn I saw somewhere that it was a 15% of the workforce commuting into the city but I can't find it.

I'm not saying Kitchener-Waterloo or Barrie shouldn't be associated with Toronto when it comes to sports or Abbotsford shouldn't be associated with Vancouver. I know that metro areas aren't the end all be all when it comes to support of pro sports teams. I know the Brewers draw a ton of people from Madison (a little over an hour away) and the Fox Valley and Green Bay (1.5-2 hours away), they even draw from near Minnesota and have regular bus trips down to Miller Park. None of those cities are counted in Milwaukee's metro area or are even close to it.

Quote:
The location arguement has been one refuted by Tampa's owner himself as the primary reason (He point to economic reasons, and almost always says the location is an aggrevating issue, not the primary one). The bigger factor is how awful the stadium is, but it still doesn't explain horrible attendence. Tampa has had trouble giving tickets away. It's an awful stadium, in a poor location, however, that cannot account for the fact attendence is awful beyond belief.
It seems awful location and awful stadium would account for awful attendance.

Quote:
Your links are strange, one doesn't even talk about the Rays, another says they are 5th in TV ratings (Something that seems off, and when look into it further, it is) and another that says they are a "thorn in the side of MLB" with how bad their fanbase is. Digging deaper, the reason the Dodgers and Angels are so "bad" for their TV ratings is their potential audience is massive, and they don't draw the same % of fans as smaller markets.
No they're not strange. A 4.89 rating (which is what the Rays drew last year) means that 88,000+ households on average tuned in to watch the Rays on an average night. That shows definite interest from the fans, they just don't want to drive to a remote part of the area to watch a game in a crappy stadium that's out of the way for most of them. That's reasonable and it's part of the reason they need a new stadium and why the Rays owner is pushing for one.

And the one link that didn't mention the Rays showed the bottom 5 in ratings, which didn't have the Rays because you said the Rays had the worst ratings in baseball which isn't even close to true.

Quote:
This quote illustrates that point. This doesn't mean that the bigger market teams have weaker fanbases, it means that it's harder to draw amazing ratings in bigger markets. Do you think an add during a Dodger's game goes for less than an ad during a Rays game?
Once again this has nothing to do with my point. My point was the Rays aren't even close to having the worst ratings in MLB, which you stated they did. Of course an ad for the Dodgers is worth more than it is for the Rays. Of course it's harder to draw ratings as a huge market where there are multiple options than it is for a smaller market where options are more limited. Where did I say they didn't? By the way, a 4.89 HH rating in Tampa is more households than the 1.12 rating the Angels drew by about 15,000.

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02-03-2013, 03:40 AM
  #34
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After the Marlins completely decimated their roster, Selig goes after the Rays?

On second thought, yep, that seems like something he'd do.
Well, no reason to **** over the fans who just payed for a stadium.

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02-10-2013, 10:11 PM
  #35
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Sadly, we are nowhere close to building a baseball stadium in Montreal. I just can't see it happening in the foreseeable future. And this is coming from a huge Expos fan.

Building the new arena in Quebec City made way more sense than building a new stadium in Montreal (because the other arena needed to be replaced, they can have shows in it and there's a fairly good chance the NHL will come back) and yet that took years to materialize and it almost didn't happen.

I can't see anyone (government or private investor) willing to fund a stadium in Montreal because of how big of a financial risk it would be considering a baseball team failed here not that long ago. The problem with baseball stadiums is they basically can't be used for anything other than baseball and the occasional big show.

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02-11-2013, 12:06 AM
  #36
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Sadly, we are nowhere close to building a baseball stadium in Montreal. I just can't see it happening in the foreseeable future. And this is coming from a huge Expos fan.

Building the new arena in Quebec City made way more sense than building a new stadium in Montreal (because the other arena needed to be replaced, they can have shows in it and there's a fairly good chance the NHL will come back) and yet that took years to materialize and it almost didn't happen.

I can't see anyone (government or private investor) willing to fund a stadium in Montreal because of how big of a financial risk it would be considering a baseball team failed here not that long ago. The problem with baseball stadiums is they basically can't be used for anything other than baseball and the occasional big show.
Football too? How new is the Alouttes stadium? Could renovations be done to share with a baseball team?

It would be awesome to get another baseball team in Canada.. Especially if it was the Rays and they stayed in the AL east.

I doubt it would happen, but the concept is definitely intriguing... I remember how impressed I was when the Nationals came to Toronto last year and there was a considerable number of Expo fans. More jerseys and hats then I ever expected to see.. We sat in front of a whole group that made the drive.

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02-11-2013, 12:31 AM
  #37
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Surprised the team isn't drawing. Whether the stadium is a pile of crap or not, they should be bringing people in. They have been a good team, and bandwagon or not it brings fans. Yeah, a new stadium can bring fans (PNC Park), but if the team goes to losing then fans go away (not always, usually).

Even when the Pens threatened to leave if no new arena, I thought it was odd. They were getting better and starting to sell out. It's just a move to get what you want. Guess the luxury boxes could be needed, but as far as selling out (or at least not alot of empty seats) a stadium it should be no issue when you're doing well.

If TB is having attendance issues, I wouldn't put money into something new. They are doing well, and the fans should come no matter how the stadium is.

Would like to see the Hampton roads/norfolk area get a professional team instead of Richmond/Raleigh. That's just beacuse my brother lives there though. Have been to a couple Admirals games, never to a Tides game though. Would like a pro team there for personal reasons when I visit lol.

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02-11-2013, 02:17 PM
  #38
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I honestly don't see the Rays leaving the area. If there were a scenario in which the Rays could have moved somewhere that gave them a better playing situation, they would have done it by now, or Sternberg would have sold to someone who could make that happen. After Loria put Miami-Dade County over a $2 billion barrel, I don't really see too many cities that don't already have teams willing to take a risk on a new major league ballpark, thus the current stalemate.

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02-11-2013, 04:52 PM
  #39
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If they could pick up Tropicana Field and drop it in a more central location within the metro area, attendance would go up. It still would be a piece of crap stadium but just due to proximity to more people, you would get more fans attending games.

Somebody call Shipping Wars and get them to move it!

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