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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XVII

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01-28-2013, 10:53 AM
  #226
BiPolar Caps
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So when is Jeff Schultz going to gain the requisite strength to become a competent NHL defenseman?
As soon as he gets over his 3 year battle with mono. Have a heart will ya!

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01-28-2013, 10:56 AM
  #227
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Jeff Schultz has far more weaknesses than lack of strength.

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01-28-2013, 10:57 AM
  #228
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You could see Chimera do it yesterday, the Nylander move on the off side.

If I speed guy up alone cannot drive around a Dman, they can shoot into the dman skates, dump and chase, drop it, or circle back and by the slow pokes time to move up, and look to pass.

Ovi was looking to pass yesterday but yeesh they were ugly. I think that circles move could help him expand his game should he stay at LW, and MJ when he is stuck at RW.

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01-28-2013, 10:57 AM
  #229
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1st line

According to Katie it is OV-Beagle-crabb. Hey coach the season is getting shorter.

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01-28-2013, 10:59 AM
  #230
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Going forward Johansson getting kicked over to wing has to put his status in jeopardy. He needs to get it together and play with some passion. He wasn't always such a wuss (though IMO his offensive hockey sense has always been average at best). I don't think it's just a lack of strength holding him back, it's just the most glaring issue.

Eakin also looked pretty intimidated last year and look at him now in Dallas. Maybe this org. is just bad at player development. It's not like there's a ready supply of mentors that a young player can look up to and learn from on/off the ice. It was true during the first wave of the rebuild and it's still true. Their overall habits are so erratic that I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of Johansson and Perreault were just better off elsewhere. Pretty ironic given their general organizational philosophy.

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01-28-2013, 11:00 AM
  #231
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According to Katie it is OV-Beagle-crabb. Hey coach the season is getting shorter.
Didn't Oates scrap that line up yesterday during the game? I thought for sure I saw Ovi with 19.

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01-28-2013, 11:01 AM
  #232
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Didn't Oates scrap that line up yesterday during the game? I thought for sure I saw Ovi with 19.
Yes. 8-19-20 was the line later in the game.

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01-28-2013, 11:03 AM
  #233
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Beagle is definitely an Oates fav. Heard Vogel talking on the radio the other night between periods and he mentioned that Oates being a former Center loves to work individually with his centers and apparently he had been working hard with Beagle on face offs (during yesterday's third period Joe B said that Beagle had won 80% of his face offs in that game up until that point). Also during this past summer Oates had looked at the stick that Beagle was using and Oates sent hims some new sticks that he thought would work better for Beagle.

Ribeiro's atrocious on face offs.

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01-28-2013, 11:04 AM
  #234
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Eakin also looked pretty intimidated last year and look at him now in Dallas. Maybe this org. is just bad at player development. It's not like there's a ready supply of mentors that a young player can look up to and learn from on/off the ice. It was true during the first wave of the rebuild and it's still true. Their overall habits are so erratic that I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of Johansson and Perreault were just better off elsewhere. Pretty ironic given their general organizational philosophy.
To me, I don't think Perattuu is a broken toy. I think he's surpassed expectations. I mean, the guy was a 6th round pick. In the end, he doesn't fit here though, given what we have and the style we play.

I think the biggest issue was Mojo not paying his dues in Hershey.

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01-28-2013, 11:09 AM
  #235
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When you think Perreault, you thing of his feistiness. That's what he brings to the game, but once you get past that part of his game, there's not much there. He might be a nice shot in the arm on a short term basis when he comes down from the press box, but long term he disappears quickly. Perreault after his recent whining needs to move on, he's gotta be wrapped in some package deal the Caps make.

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01-28-2013, 11:10 AM
  #236
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i like Beagle geting a chance to play with Ovie. Not sure i like Crab there but i havent seen enough of his game to know what he can do.

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01-28-2013, 11:15 AM
  #237
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Beagle is definitely an Oates fav. Heard Vogel talking on the radio the other night between periods and he mentioned that Oates being a former Center loves to work individually with his centers and apparently he had been working hard with Beagle on face offs (during yesterday's third period Joe B said that Beagle had won 80% of his face offs in that game up until that point). Also during this past summer Oates had looked at the stick that Beagle was using and Oates sent hims some new sticks that he thought would work better for Beagle.

Ribeiro's atrocious on face offs.
Sounds like a great way to completely lose the team.

What would it take to get one coach who doesn't get a hardon for a random grinder?

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01-28-2013, 11:18 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Sounds like a great way to completely lose the team.

What would it take to get one coach who doesn't get a hardon for a random grinder?
Lose the team by improving a specific players skill sets?

Not following you.

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01-28-2013, 11:19 AM
  #239
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When you think Perreault, you thing of his feistiness. That's what he brings to the game, but once you get past that part of his game, there's not much there. He might be a nice shot in the arm on a short term basis when he comes down from the press box, but long term he disappears quickly. Perreault after his recent whining needs to move on, he's gotta be wrapped in some package deal the Caps make.
Perreault is a good player on a bad team type. On a good team his deficiencies should prevent him form getting significant ice time.

The more I see Wolski, the more I see Johansson going down that path. Wolski had a good playoff at 20, and after years of not matching his production at 21, Colorado shipped his ass out of town as soon as he did.

If you masturbate to stats like some around here, you will probably be aroused by the fact that Perreault scored more goals than Johansson while playing 16 fewer games.

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01-28-2013, 11:22 AM
  #240
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Obviously, some of these wouldn't be obtainable for that price, but taking into consideration offensive upside and contract situation:

Tavares
Seguin
RNH
Duchene
Hodgson
Skinner
Couture
Stepan
Henrique
Huberdeau
Galchenyuk

Maybe:

Couturier
Schenn
Granlund

O'Reilly had 55 points last year with 15:59 ESTOI/G (1.75 P/60) and 2:21 PPTOI/G (4.76 P/60). That was his career high in his 3rd year in the league.

Johansson had 46 points last year with 13:58 ESTOI/G (1.90 P/60) and 2:13 PPTOI/G (2.95 P/60). That was his career high in his 2nd year in the league.

Looking at their scoring rates, Johansson was the more productive player at even strength. O'Reilly's better numbers overall came from his PP production. For reference's sake, Colorado's team PP% was 18.4 (9th in the NHL), and Washington's was 16.7 (18th in the NHL).

I'd be happy with getting O'Reilly for another asset, as long as you're not paying him the $5M/year he's allegedly demanding. But he's not that far ahead of Johansson.

Also, while I haven't seen Johansson this year, it seems that his struggles are still related to his strength on the puck. Personally, lack of strength is the weakness I'd like to have most in a young player, as it's one that can be remedied. Look at the jump Tomas Fleischmann's game took when he gained the requisite strength.
What is the point of this analysis exactly? Regular season pts per ESTOI/G comparison between a guy playing a shutdown role and a guy playing a highly sheltered offense-first role with Ovechkin for most of the season? Is this the same crap that got half the board to believe Perreault could replace Semin? What was Mike Richards' ESTOI/derp last year? Who cares? If all we're looking for is regular season offense we could probably lure Zherdev from the KHL for free and get 60 points a season from him.

If you actually watch games it's fairly obvious that O'Reilly is significantly ahead of Johansson, and more importantly he displays qualities that Johansson most likely will never ever obtain.

Also Flash still sucks. He may have developed into a more consistent regular season player but he's still soft as baby ****.

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01-28-2013, 11:25 AM
  #241
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Lose the team by improving a specific players skill sets?

Not following you.
Getting super fixated on some grinder who reminds you of something or other from your youth as a head coach and letting it blur out everything else. Boudreau did it with Flash.

Ovechkin should play on Beagle's line precisely as many times as he should play on Neuvirth's line.

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01-28-2013, 11:26 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Sounds like a great way to completely lose the team.

What would it take to get one coach who doesn't get a hardon for a random grinder?
Ever consider Beagle isnt just some random grinder and has a much higher ceiling then anyone giving credit for? He was one the the players Hunter trusted most in the playoffs and Now Oates sees enough in his game to let him play with Ovechkin. If Beagle can develop his offensive game some more he verywell could be the 2 way Center everyone wants so bad.

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01-28-2013, 11:29 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
Ever consider Beagle isnt just some random grinder and has a much higher ceiling then anyone giving credit for? He was one the the players Hunter trusted most in the playoffs and Now Oates sees enough in his game to let him play with Ovechkin. If Beagle can develop his offensive game some more he verywell could be the 2 way Center everyone wants so bad.
No he's a random grinder. A good grinder but still a random grinder.

I can see him becoming a good 3C if you're fine with your 3rd line not having much offense. Dude works hard and plays a simple dependable game. But it's pretty obvious that him becoming anything beyond that is exceptionally unlikely. Chris Kelly upside if he's really, really lucky.

We might as well put Hendricks with Backstrom to "coach" his offensive game. Oh wait we were actually doing that at one point


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01-28-2013, 11:34 AM
  #244
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Perreault is a good player on a bad team type. On a good team his deficiencies should prevent him form getting significant ice time.

The more I see Wolski, the more I see Johansson going down that path. Wolski had a good playoff at 20, and after years of not matching his production at 21, Colorado shipped his ass out of town as soon as he did.

If you masturbate to stats like some around here, you will probably be aroused by the fact that Perreault scored more goals than Johansson while playing 16 fewer games.
I too get amused by the faux-Moneyball approach to a sport like hockey.

Don't worry, there probably some random ****** numbers that work against your 16 fewer games thing.

I'll have you aware that Perrault scores more goals than Johansson because from the times of 7:47-8:29 PM during weeknight games, Perrault sees a dramatic increase in puck time in the offensive zone in comparison to Johansson's in that same time frame.

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01-28-2013, 11:41 AM
  #245
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Ever consider Beagle isnt just some random grinder and has a much higher ceiling then anyone giving credit for? He was one the the players Hunter trusted most in the playoffs and Now Oates sees enough in his game to let him play with Ovechkin. If Beagle can develop his offensive game some more he verywell could be the 2 way Center everyone wants so bad.
I agree, this is a highly likely outcome.

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01-28-2013, 11:57 AM
  #246
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for some reason i thought beagle was alot younger than 27

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01-28-2013, 12:06 PM
  #247
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for some reason i thought beagle was alot younger than 27
Because he's a low level grinder who had to spend years and years in the minors...hence the limited ceiling...

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01-28-2013, 12:21 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Obviously, some of these wouldn't be obtainable for that price, but taking into consideration offensive upside and contract situation:

Tavares
Seguin
RNH
Duchene
Hodgson
Skinner
Couture
Stepan
Henrique
Huberdeau
Galchenyuk

Maybe:

Couturier
Schenn
Granlund
You wouldn't even come close to getting Tavares, Seguin, RNH, Skinner, or Couture for MoJo + 2nd. Considering the states of the franchises in Florida, Colorado, and Montreal, they hang on to the higher upside players of Huberdeau, Duchene, and Galchenyuk as well. Not to mention that Seguin has primarily been a winger so far in his career.

So that leaves a list of Hodgson, Stepan, Henrique, and maybe Couturier, Schenn, and Granlund. I see no argument for Couturier or Schenn over O'Reilly, whatsoever. Their strength, relative to their peers, is their defensive game. O'Reilly is just as strong, if not stronger, in that respect. And he has shown a lot more offensive potential in the NHL. You hope that they can become the player that ROR already is. Granlund, for all intents and purposes, is still a prospect.

Hodgson, Stepan, and Henrique were all drafted earlier than O'Reilly. None of them have even matched the 55 points you disparaged O'Reilly for posting. Henrique and Stepan came close, both posting 51 last year. Both of them played in more aggressive systems than Colorado did last year, with much better linemates. Henrique spent most of his time between Kovalchuk and Parise, while Stepan was in between Gaborik and Anisimov. Heck, even during Hodgson's outburst upon arriving in Buffalo, he had Vanek on his wing.

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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
I'd be happy with getting O'Reilly for another asset, as long as you're not paying him the $5M/year he's allegedly demanding. But he's not that far ahead of Johansson.
I'm as big of a Johansson supporter as is left. But O'Reilly is head and shoulders above Johansson. His game is much more complete, and his offensive game has just as much potential.

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Use his speed to get past the defenseman? Oh no can't do that because that might mean getting hit. Better dump it off to your teammate and let him get hit instead.
When he has an opportunity to get around the defenseman, he usually takes it. The drop passes usually occur when he gains the zone, and the other team has two or three defenders back. Is he going to weave between all of them?

Would you rather he constantly dump and chase than drop pass? Is that not just as predictable of a move? Don't we have enough dump and chase guys on this team? I'm glad there's someone on this roster who can actually gain the zone while maintaining possession.

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Johansson is basically a poor man's version of Wolski with less offensive skill and size. There is a reason the guy keeps bouncing around different teams and got picked up on a dumpster dive.
They're not even remotely comparable players. Completely different skill sets.

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Ever consider Beagle isnt just some random grinder and has a much higher ceiling then anyone giving credit for? He was one the the players Hunter trusted most in the playoffs and Now Oates sees enough in his game to let him play with Ovechkin. If Beagle can develop his offensive game some more he verywell could be the 2 way Center everyone wants so bad.
You do realize that Beagle is 27, right? He's barely a month younger than Ovechkin. He has a grand total of 11 career NHL points in 87 games. He never scored more than 37 points in the AHL, and hasn't posted a PPG+ season since his 19 year old season in the Alberta Junior Hockey League (Junior A). If he were to suddenly develop an offensive game, it would make him one hell of a late bloomer.

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01-28-2013, 12:21 PM
  #249
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Sometimes a players ceiling is no factor in deciding who he plays with.

Quote:
Adam Oates cited "balance" as reason to put Ovechkin back with Beagle, Crabb. Asked him if any negatives to that trio. "No," he said
While I do think Beagle being a RH shot could be a factor in being at 1C, it may just be for his faceoff prowess. Or, it may be what we saw in the playoffs.

It could be the sacrificial lamb. You want Ovi at LW? Fine, but don't get upset if coach decides he doesn't need high skill linemates, since he tends to not use his linemates. When he was at his best, he didn't. He used Green. But he was clearly looking to pass yesterday and he needs to stop when with grinders. Those were some feeble passes.

The other lines simply have to score for it to work. Ribs is doing his part, Nick is next. 1 brings Ovi and defense.

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01-28-2013, 12:29 PM
  #250
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Sometimes a players ceiling is no factor in deciding who he plays with.



While I do think Beagle being a RH shot could be a factor in being at 1C, it may just be for his faceoff prowess. Or, it may be what we saw in the playoffs.

It could be the sacrificial lamb. You want Ovi at LW? Fine, but don't get upset if coach decides he doesn't need high skill linemates, since he tends to not use his linemates. When he was at his best, he didn't. He used Green. But he was clearly looking to pass yesterday and he needs to stop when with grinders. Those were some feeble passes.

The other lines simply have to score for it to work. Ribs is doing his part, Nick is next. 1 brings Ovi and defense.
Beagle isn't at 1C; Ovechkin is at 3LW. Backstrom and Ribeiro are both better players than Ovechkin at this point, and their lines are the first two.

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