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01-28-2013, 12:04 PM
  #501
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Exactly. People are getting too attached to a team that has provided nothing but failures.

I don't get why people don't understand that this is a bottom feeding team. It might become slightly better if Luongo was in net, but it doesn't make us a contender.

The assets Phaneuf and Kessel could get us would put us in the right direction to compete in two to three years.

Meanwhile we would still have exciting players on the roster, all while we have a chance to draft guys like Jones, MacKinnon, Ekblad etc.

Nobody on this team is untouchable to me. Nobody. Everyone on this team can be traded for the right price.
We have to do a pre trade deadline evaluation of our players, Nonis said when hired 'decisions will have to be made on certain players',

I have no sentimental value to players, I look at W/L, I don't care who is on the roster as long as we are moving towards the goal, this is a parade on Bay St.

Right now, we have to look at models that have worked, Boston is a great example. They were a very bad team when Dave Lewis was the coach, and O'connell was the GM. Here is our chance with Nonis, let's get started.

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01-28-2013, 12:05 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I agree. I don't think I'm sold on Dave Morrison and company's ability to evaluate talent at all, or Burke's distribution of North America/Europe picks. The last four years, it seems like there's been a crap ton of not so smart moves made by that staff:

-Brad Ross. Why did we trade a bigger body prospect in Jimmy Hayes for a small guy who doesn't seem to have any game at all unless someone was seriously going to bat for him? Pointless, unproductive trade.

-Not a lot of value coming out of the CHL: McKegg, Blacker, Ryan, Devane, Olden, Carrick just seem like throwaway picks who are having problems making an impact at the AHL let alone ever becoming decent NHLers.

-Thommie Bergman: seems to be under-utilized. I feel like he should be going to bat more for those Silfverberg, Tatar, Jarnkrok, Aberg, Collberg, Lehner, Dansk type prospects with high upside in the second and third rounds to upgrade the talent in the system. Those kinds of picks justify moving up like we did with the Brad Ross pick. I get the sense that his voice wasn't quite as well respected under the Burke regime.
Jimmy Hayes is like Joe Colborne, he's a gentle giant. He's not a good player. He got passed over in the depth chart by a much smaller player in Andrew Shaw because he provides that grit.

I think Brad Ross will carve out a nice NHL career on the 3rd line. Marlies are just stacked and he has got much of a chance to get going.

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01-28-2013, 12:06 PM
  #503
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Expecting the Leafs to draft good in the later rounds is like a dream to me at the moment.

I'm just glad they picked right with their top pick: Morgan Rielly.
I don't trust the scouting staff at all.

If we have a top pick, do you trust that they'd be able to pick the best prospect out of Drouin, Barkov, Lindholm or Monahan? I just don't know that Dave Morrison is the right guy.

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01-28-2013, 12:07 PM
  #504
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Jimmy Hayes is like Joe Colborne, he's a gentle giant. He's not a good player. He got passed over in the depth chart by a much smaller player in Andrew Shaw because he provides that grit.

I think Brad Ross will carve out a nice NHL career on the 3rd line. Marlies are just stacked and he has got much of a chance to get going.
Joe Colborne sucks too but he's still a much better AHL player than Brad Ross probably will ever be. Brad Ross looks like he's going to have a Dale Mitchell pro career.

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01-28-2013, 12:07 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
HockeyCentral is actually making a lot of sense today.

I'm asking myself the same thing:

How the heck are the Leafs in this situation 4 years into a rebuild? It really sucks that the Leafs are still aiming for the 8th spot and besides Kessel we've got zero game breakers.

I'm all ready for to push the reset button, take another 2-3 years and draft top 3-5 for 2 years.

I hate when people say: The Leafs are the 2nd youngest team. I'd take the rosters of at least 15 teams that are older than us if given a chance.

I'd rather be a team like the Oilers right now.

They've got Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yakupov etc...the hard part is all but done for them. Now all they need to do is round out the team.
You might be surprised to hear this but as far back as 2007 people were calling for a draft-oriented rebuild.

Pretty funny that all along the way those people (including me sometimes) were insulted and flamed.

Now look at us.

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01-28-2013, 12:09 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
You might be surprised to hear this but as far back as 2007 people were calling for a draft-oriented rebuild.

Pretty funny that all along the way those people (including me sometimes) were insulted and flamed.

Now look at us.
Imagine if they had simply thrown in the towel in 2008 and walked away with Steven Stamkos and had the good sense to lay low for the Tavares draft? That would have been the kind of long term thinking that would have at least given us one or two pillars to build with instead of what we have now. And imagine if Burke had the foresight to actually offer the Sedins a major cap circumvention deal and still made the Kessel deal?

We'd be looking at a roster with Sedin-Sedin-Stamkos-Tavares-Kessel.

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01-28-2013, 12:15 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
You might be surprised to hear this but as far back as 2007 people were calling for a draft-oriented rebuild.

Pretty funny that all along the way those people (including me sometimes) were insulted and flamed.

Now look at us.
Yeah, I do remember those times. I was just a lurker then

This organization has so far just refused to use the draft as a means to make the team better.

The draft is there for one sole purpose: When you're terrible, you've got the opportunity to draft a franchise player.

It's funny how people don't understand the difference between the Leafs pick and traded picks.

I was having a discussion with a colleague and he is a complete follower of everything the Leafs do. He thinks the Leafs don't have a drafting problem and when they trade their first round picks they also trade back for them.

Who would I rather have right now?

Seguin and Hamilton with the picks we traded away or...Stuart Percy and Tyler Biggs with the picks we traded for?

Very tough choice...

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01-28-2013, 12:16 PM
  #508
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I just wish the Leafs would stop tinkering and let this take it's course. I have never been a fan with trading prospects and pics-NEVER! Looking back, moving Stahlberg where has it got us? Moving up to get Biggs where has it got us? We could have just as good of a prospect and a goalie prospect in Gibson as well. Kessel? This franchise has been pulling this stuff since the early 70's and it has never fared well. Fletch in his first tenure was the only guy I saw that made something out of it.

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01-28-2013, 12:25 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I don't trust the scouting staff at all.

If we have a top pick, do you trust that they'd be able to pick the best prospect out of Drouin, Barkov, Lindholm or Monahan? I just don't know that Dave Morrison is the right guy.
Simple solution, an one that is well within the bounds of reality:

Demote Morrisson. He's a decent scout, but he's not earning his pay like some of the others in his trade. Look at scouts who have done well on staffs like the Bruins, Panthers, Red Wings, Habs, etc., and pay them. This is where a huge money franchise like Toronto pays dividends.

We're not getting our money's worth out of many guys, other than Bergmann, so fix it...

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01-28-2013, 12:27 PM
  #510
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People are doubting our scouts after we picked Rielly in that draft? Rielly could easily end up being the steal of the draft.. Not only that, but Finn could also be as well. Having two potential steals in a draft is a pretty good draft, IMO. You people are never satisfied.

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01-28-2013, 12:27 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Simple solution, an one that is well within the bounds of reality:

Demote Morrisson. He's a decent scout, but he's not earning his pay like some of the others in his trade. Look at scouts who have done well on staffs like the Bruins, Panthers, Red Wings, Habs, etc., and pay them. This is where a huge money franchise like Toronto pays dividends.

We're not getting our money's worth out of many guys, other than Bergmann, so fix it...
I would have to agree with this.

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01-28-2013, 12:32 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
People are doubting our scouts after we picked Rielly in that draft? Rielly could easily end up being the steal of the draft.. Not only that, but Finn could also be as well. Having two potential steals in a draft is a pretty good draft, IMO. You people are never satisfied.
Are you trying to say it takes rocket science to pick a guy where he was rated in the 1st, and a player who slid out of the 1st?

A monkey could've made those picks.

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01-28-2013, 12:32 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I don't trust the scouting staff at all.

If we have a top pick, do you trust that they'd be able to pick the best prospect out of Drouin, Barkov, Lindholm or Monahan? I just don't know that Dave Morrison is the right guy.
Out of those guys you take Barkov 10/10. Kid is just lighting up the Fin league. I can see him competing witg Jones and MacKinnon for the top spot.

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01-28-2013, 12:35 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I agree. I don't think I'm sold on Dave Morrison and company's ability to evaluate talent at all, or Burke's distribution of North America/Europe picks. The last four years, it seems like there's been a crap ton of not so smart moves made by that staff:

-Brad Ross. Why did we trade a bigger body prospect in Jimmy Hayes for a small guy who doesn't seem to have any game at all unless someone was seriously going to bat for him? Pointless, unproductive trade.

-Not a lot of value coming out of the CHL: McKegg, Blacker, Ryan, Devane, Olden, Carrick just seem like throwaway picks who are having problems making an impact at the AHL let alone ever becoming decent NHLers.

-Thommie Bergman: seems to be under-utilized. I feel like he should be going to bat more for those Silfverberg, Tatar, Jarnkrok, Aberg, Collberg, Lehner, Dansk type prospects with high upside in the second and third rounds to upgrade the talent in the system. Those kinds of picks justify moving up like we did with the Brad Ross pick. I get the sense that his voice wasn't quite as well respected under the Burke regime.
Just one thing, olden was a bergman pick and came out of Europe. Not the chl.

Definitely agree with thebpremise of your post however.

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01-28-2013, 12:35 PM
  #515
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Out of those guys you take Barkov 10/10. Kid is just lighting up the Fin league. I can see him competing witg Jones and MacKinnon for the top spot.
If he wasn't playing on foreign soil, he absolutely would be. What he's doing there against pro hockey players, would look like child's play against juniors here.

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01-28-2013, 12:56 PM
  #516
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I don't trust the scouting staff at all.

If we have a top pick, do you trust that they'd be able to pick the best prospect out of Drouin, Barkov, Lindholm or Monahan? I just don't know that Dave Morrison is the right guy.
I dont think he is either. But I do think at the top of the draft we'd be okay. Recently the high end of the draft we've been okay, I like Rielly and Kadri. Its the 10-60 spots that I am worried. Those picks later on in the 1st and second, like Kenny Ryan, Tyler Biggs, Brad Ross, Stuart Percy were all "meh" picks in recent year. It seems like they just picked up guys that can be depth (4-5 pairing d, or 2-3 line forwards) and don't have shots at being stars.

I am really hating that we moved up to get Biggs over ending up with say, Percy, Jenner and Saad.

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01-28-2013, 01:14 PM
  #517
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People are doubting our scouts after we picked Rielly in that draft? Rielly could easily end up being the steal of the draft.. Not only that, but Finn could also be as well. Having two potential steals in a draft is a pretty good draft, IMO. You people are never satisfied.
I agree.

Rielly played 18 games last year, he was a risky pick off of major knee surgery and limited viewing, to say a monkey could have made that pick really shows one's immaturity.

Rielly was hardly a slam dunk pick to teams given the risk, he was an outstanding call by Morrison, wonder if the Isles or Columbus scouts want a redo?

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01-28-2013, 01:21 PM
  #518
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I dont think he is either. But I do think at the top of the draft we'd be okay. Recently the high end of the draft we've been okay, I like Rielly and Kadri. Its the 10-60 spots that I am worried. Those picks later on in the 1st and second, like Kenny Ryan, Tyler Biggs, Brad Ross, Stuart Percy were all "meh" picks in recent year. It seems like they just picked up guys that can be depth (4-5 pairing d, or 2-3 line forwards) and don't have shots at being stars.

I am really hating that we moved up to get Biggs over ending up with say, Percy, Jenner and Saad.
Morrison was the head scout in 06,

Guess how many players he drafted in 06 are playing in the NHL?

Kulemin, Tlusty, Stalberg, Reimer, Holzer, Komarov. 6 players out of 7 picks to play in the NHL, not a bad %.

Like all scouts he has made some questionable picks, Blacker and Ryan for example that come to mind. But he is more than qualified in making decisions on players.

Tom Nilsson, Jerry D'amigo, Leivo, Sparks, Frattin are all examples of good scouting as promising later picks.

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01-28-2013, 01:24 PM
  #519
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I agree.

Rielly played 18 games last year, he was a risky pick off of major knee surgery and limited viewing, to say a monkey could have made that pick really shows one's immaturity.

Rielly was hardly a slam dunk pick to teams given the risk, he was an outstanding call by Morrison, wonder if the Isles or Columbus scouts want a redo?
No, a monkey could've made that pick because Rielly was picked right about where he was rated, and essentially fell into our laps.

Finn was rated as high as a top 15 pick, as well, and slid to our pick in the 2nd. It was solid value, and a no-brainer pick as well.

Why can't you leave out insulting a fellow poster from a single one of your posts?
Don't talk to anyone about immaturity until you correct that little faux-pas.

The bottom line is, outside of a few exceptions, we're not getting our money's worth from this scouting staff. Percy was a HORRIBLE value pick at 25, leaving a load of better talent on the board. I like picking Kenny Ryan, but not where he was picked. He should've been a 3rd rounder. Jamie Devane in the 3rd? Sam Carrick? Barron Smith? Flaake? Schenn at #5?

They haven't gotten the job done in an acceptable way, when given the opportunity. You talk about results, and how they should dictate how this organization functions... Well, there you go. There's one VITAL part of the organization where the guys getting paid good money aren't getting their job done. That's just poor salary allocation.

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01-28-2013, 01:28 PM
  #520
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Judging Percy as not a good pick when he has not played one NHL game is faulty thinking. Further again, we all know Reilly was a gusty call when everyone wanted us to draft Forsberg or Grigorenko as an Organizational need. If a monkey could indeed make that pick, this is one super planet of the Apes smart Chimp.

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01-28-2013, 01:32 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Morrison was the head scout in 06,

Guess how many players he drafted in 06 are playing in the NHL?

Kulemin, Tlusty, Stalberg, Reimer, Holzer, Komarov. 6 players out of 7 picks to play in the NHL, not a bad %.

Like all scouts he has made some questionable picks, Blacker and Ryan for example that come to mind. But he is more than qualified in making decisions on players.

Tom Nilsson, Jerry D'amigo, Leivo, Sparks, Frattin are all examples of good scouting as promising later picks.
This.

Its so easy to talk smack about Morrison when you don't look at what he's had to work with.

Since 06 when he became head scout he's had his own first round pick traded away 3 times ('07, '10 and '11). Turned out to be a 13th overall, 2nd overall, and 7th overall picks.

I don't care what anybody says, its SIGNIFICANTLY easier to hit with a top 5, 1-0 and 15 pick than it is to hit anywhere else in the draft, or even with a late 1st.

Add Eller, Seguin and Hamilton to his draft record and it goes from average to very good.

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01-28-2013, 01:36 PM
  #522
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Judging Percy as not a good pick when he has not played one NHL game is faulty thinking. Further again, we all know Reilly was a gusty call when everyone wanted us to draft Forsberg or Grigorenko as an Organizational need. If a monkey could indeed make that pick, this is one super planet of the Apes smart Chimp.
Yeah, you can judge it that way, especially given the teams need for high end talent in the system, and considering that Rattie and Saad have both played games in the NHL, and are far better prospects, picked MUCH later than Percy....

Yeah, he was a terrible value pick at #25. Far superior players went after him.

Have a look at how Dimitrij Jaskin is doing... we talk about needing size and jam in the top-6, while a guy like this goes to St.Louis at 41, after they picked Rattie with the 32nd pick.

Yeah, you want to talk about scouts getting the job done?

Trocheck in the 3rd @ pick 64?

Enough said.

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01-28-2013, 01:39 PM
  #523
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Yeah, you can judge it that way, especially given the teams need for high end talent in the system, and considering that Rattie and Saad have both played games in the NHL, and are far better prospects, picked MUCH later than Percy....

Yeah, he was a terrible value pick at #25. Far superior players went after him.

Have a look at how Dimitrij Jaskin is doing... we talk about needing size and jam in the top-6, while a guy like this goes to St.Louis at 41, after they picked Rattie with the 32nd pick.

Yeah, you want to talk about scouts getting the job done?

Trocheck in the 3rd @ pick 64?

Enough said.
And let's talk about Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyuk going in the late rounds too. Come on man. It's easier to judge a draft from hindsight, but Percy can still be a really good defenseman, just because he's not playing now doesn't mean anything.

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01-28-2013, 01:40 PM
  #524
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Yeah, you can judge it that way, especially given the teams need for high end talent in the system, and considering that Rattie and Saad have both played games in the NHL, and are far better prospects, picked MUCH later than Percy....

Yeah, he was a terrible value pick at #25. Far superior players went after him.

Have a look at how Dimitrij Jaskin is doing... we talk about needing size and jam in the top-6, while a guy like this goes to St.Louis at 41, after they picked Rattie with the 32nd pick.

Yeah, you want to talk about scouts getting the job done?

Trocheck in the 3rd @ pick 64?

Enough said.
If only scouts had a rear view mirror, none would ever make a mistake.

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01-28-2013, 01:41 PM
  #525
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And let's talk about Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyuk going in the late rounds too. Come on man. It's easier to judge a draft from hindsight, but Percy can still be a really good defenseman, just because he's not playing now doesn't mean anything.
They have dined on that for over a decade now, this one is old, and tiresome. What have they done lately?

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