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'Veteran' leadership lacks humility and point fingers

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Old
01-28-2013, 01:18 PM
  #51
Master Lok
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Originally Posted by TayBerle HopKov View Post
The veterans are hurting this team more than helping it. They are bad influences on building the culture of the oilers and this needs to be rectified.
Totally 100% wrong. If you look at the "vet leaders", Horcoff, Smid, Hemsky, and Smyth, I think theres one thing that stands out amongst these guys.

They're Oilers, and they've been with the organization for very long time. Even Smyth who left and gave up a run to The Cup in order to return home to Edmonton - they're role models to the kids that being a hockey player in Edmonton is a privilege and they want to be here. That's the culture they're trying to build.

Even Nick Schultz who was given the A, he was a longtime player for Minnesota, before he came here.

As captain, one of Horcoff's roles is to answer the media, every game, every week. The media asks the question, and he answers them. He answered it correctly.

Seems to me, that its not the veteran leadership that lacks humility and points fingers. Its the OP.

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01-28-2013, 01:24 PM
  #52
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As for the OP's comments.

I'll pile on with the other "horcoff neutrals" or "horcoff defenders" here. There is very little he can say in a situation like this that isn't going to get twisted the wrong way.

The FACT of the matter is that he lead this team to the stanley cup finals in 2006, and it had nothing to do with his skill level. He led by example, playing nearly mistake free hockey that followed the coaches gameplan. He CAN do that... we know because we've seen it.

The last few years he obviously isn't the player he used to be... but that doesn't mean he still can't be a leader. I take his comments as partially deflecting the blame, but only partially... perhaps he does want to call out the issue in plain terms. That can only help with accountability.

I'd prefer if he was a little more specific than the catch-all "inexperience" and instead said "individual play" and "failing to make smart, conservative plays at critical moments in the game"... but I'm not going to get my nose out of joint about it. Sometimes you don't have time to sugar coat.

As for Dubnyk... that's the sound of a frustrated goaltender. While he has a right to feel it... I know from my experience playing goal, it isn't likely to be a productive comment if he says it too often.

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01-28-2013, 01:40 PM
  #53
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Did Dubnyk really say that?

This guy lets in at least one momentum-killing softie per game but he has the nerve to blame the rest of the team for not being good defensively? What garbage.

Also, I'm sort of a Horcoff hater but I don't really find anything wrong with what he said. Maybe it's just because I'm accustomed to hearing his loser talk after every game/season.

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01-28-2013, 01:40 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by bucks_oil View Post
As for the OP's comments.

I'll pile on with the other "horcoff neutrals" or "horcoff defenders" here. There is very little he can say in a situation like this that isn't going to get twisted the wrong way.

The FACT of the matter is that he lead this team to the stanley cup finals in 2006, and it had nothing to do with his skill level. He led by example, playing nearly mistake free hockey that followed the coaches gameplan. He CAN do that... we know because we've seen it.

The last few years he obviously isn't the player he used to be... but that doesn't mean he still can't be a leader. I take his comments as partially deflecting the blame, but only partially... perhaps he does want to call out the issue in plain terms. That can only help with accountability.

I'd prefer if he was a little more specific than the catch-all "inexperience" and instead said "individual play" and "failing to make smart, conservative plays at critical moments in the game"... but I'm not going to get my nose out of joint about it. Sometimes you don't have time to sugar coat.

As for Dubnyk... that's the sound of a frustrated goaltender. While he has a right to feel it... I know from my experience playing goal, it isn't likely to be a productive comment if he says it too often.
All Horcoff has to say is: We need to stay out of the penalty box. We, as a team need to be more disciplined.

That's it. No one would be able to bash him for that.

In all games so far, an early penalty caused us to be chasing the game rather than controlling the game. Plain and simple.

I would love to see this team in a lead. 4 games in, I'm still waiting.

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01-28-2013, 01:42 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
Eberle also did the exact same thing to Iginla and took a penalty for it. How come no mention of this? I guess because he's one of the shiny new kids.
Actually, it's because he produces. If Horc actually did some good, his mistakes could be forgiven. He doesn't do enough out there to help us - and that is with plenty of PP time.

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01-28-2013, 01:49 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Actually, it's because he produces. If Horc actually did some good, his mistakes could be forgiven. He doesn't do enough out there to help us - and that is with plenty of PP time.
It might not show up on the stats sheets, but Horcoff is quite the presence in front of the net on the PP.

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01-28-2013, 01:50 PM
  #57
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I remember that game... isn't it the one where Esa Tikkanen stepped in and read the riot act in the second period?
Something happened to turn that game around and one Oiler (forgot who it was) said on the telecast "don't count us out, we're going to win this game and win this series".

It was like two different series rolled into one.

Then the team rolled over the subsequent opposition. Winnipeg was the toughest series, but mainly because the Oil didn't find the commitment and resolve yet.

on a sidenote I often thought the 91, and 92 versions could've got it done as well but they lacked similar resolve those seasons and were vanquished by respective opponents, Minny, and Chicago, that had loads of it. I thought those losses particularly bitter because you kind of recognized it was the end of times here.

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01-28-2013, 02:12 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
on a sidenote I often thought the 91, and 92 versions could've got it done as well but they lacked similar resolve those seasons and were vanquished by respective opponents, Minny, and Chicago, that had loads of it. I thought those losses particularly bitter because you kind of recognized it was the end of times here.
I'm a bit young to remember (and sorry to go O/T) but had the Oilers gotten past the conference finals, do you think they would have had the horses to beat Lemieux and the Pens? From a "historical" perspective it seems like that was their time.

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01-28-2013, 02:17 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by c4fn8d View Post
All Horcoff has to say is: We need to stay out of the penalty box. We, as a team need to be more disciplined.

That's it. No one would be able to bash him for that.


In all games so far, an early penalty caused us to be chasing the game rather than controlling the game. Plain and simple.

I would love to see this team in a lead. 4 games in, I'm still waiting.
So you want the same generic cliches over and over again. They are boring that's why they are cliches, but hey at least no one can get mad at them.

He didn't say anything damning like Moreau did. Can WE as a group put his contract aside and stop running to the barn looking for the pitchforks and torches. Horcoff is still a useful player contract aside and he will have numerous teams interested in his services if and when he is bought out.

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01-28-2013, 02:19 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Alex87 View Post
I'm a bit young to remember (and sorry to go O/T) but had the Oilers gotten past the conference finals, do you think they would have had the horses to beat Lemieux and the Pens? From a "historical" perspective it seems like that was their time.
Yeah thats a good question but it would've been a lot of fun.

Minny and Chicago sputtered after beating the Oilers. A cup experienced team would've been harder to handle. Remembering that this Oiler club had gone 5 for 5 in respective finals and with only one of those series being close. There was still a whole lot of knowing how to win on that Oiler club. But those Hawks and Stars teams were well appointed to face us. Hard working clubs with depth that just wanted it more.

You know the weird thing? Missing the playoffs from 92-97 seemed like forever and a blackhole in memory. Yet the current slide is far worse and the abyss far deeper.

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01-28-2013, 03:14 PM
  #61
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I honestly would say exactly the same thing as Horcoff. It doesnt take a genius to notice we are continuing to drop the game plan and run around like idiots. It happens.

My personal opinion for this season is that THAT (abandoning game plans, getting too cute when high percentage plays are available) is going to happen. I am hoping the team gets on the same page by game 8. My innitial outlook on the season is the first 8 games are going to be like mood swings of a baby. I fully expect Ralph will have made his point and had all players buy in by the 9th game. If after 8 games we are buying in, and not abandoning our system so we can try to outside/inside cough up on NHL veteran d-men, and at or above .500 than i think we will be in great shape.

This is why i like RKs approach to SJ. you guys want to run around in the offensive zone and count on your skill? ok lets see where it gets you. im not calling a time out and im not rescuing your goalie.

Here is an idea. Gain the offensive zone and then work the defence and the goalie. do this for 60 minutes. win the game. the best teams do it.

Skill will get you golfing pretty fast if you want to keep doing the ol' i got skills look at me mom.

I think there are alot of fans that need the same lesson as the kids. go watch real teams play. they work the defence and the goalie. calgary didnt break a sweat.

also if horcoff isnt screening Kipper, those 2 PP goals never happen. Here is an idea... WORK.

In a few games i expect people to stop being so cute. Im pointing mostly to Hall here, as he should know better. Hemsky hasnt been all that great in the last couple of games eeither and i am not liking what petry is bringing.

ALSO i will point out that i blame Potter for both goals against in vancouver and for 3 against SJ. Since Fistric has been in the line-up ive had less to complain about. Petry was horrific in Calgary but i am hoping that was just a bad night.
I have been watching every second of the 4 games and the 3rd line is the only line i can trust to get pucks in deep and start actually working so the other lines can counter. ALSO, the second and 3rd lines have been taking more defensive zone draws which can account for some issues when Gags only wins 40% of his draws and has a rook on his line. I have faith these things will be tightened up by the players themselves learning to buy in to be successful. I have actually been pleased with Yakupovs defensive buy in. He isnt the greatest defensive player but he is trying to stay with the plan better than Hall etc. This is why Ebs will be the future captain.

In conclusion; this is a young team, this is an emotional team, this is a skilled top 6 that needs to learn to pick their spots better at trying their gimmicks, this is a young defense that still has some possible baggage (whitney) and learning (petry) to do, and above all this is a team that needs to learn the high percentage plays. Calgary is not a better team, they arent faster... they are however players that make the puck work and make you chase. One team had brains, one team thought they could be cute. 5 on 5 we are sucking.
9th in league on PP
9th on PK despite the SJ crapfest

not bad. fix up the 5 on 5


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01-28-2013, 06:20 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Totally 100% wrong. If you look at the "vet leaders", Horcoff, Smid, Hemsky, and Smyth, I think theres one thing that stands out amongst these guys.

They're Oilers, and they've been with the organization for very long time. Even Smyth who left and gave up a run to The Cup in order to return home to Edmonton - they're role models to the kids that being a hockey player in Edmonton is a privilege and they want to be here. That's the culture they're trying to build.

Even Nick Schultz who was given the A, he was a longtime player for Minnesota, before he came here.

As captain, one of Horcoff's roles is to answer the media, every game, every week. The media asks the question, and he answers them. He answered it correctly.

Seems to me, that its not the veteran leadership that lacks humility and points fingers. Its the OP.

Bingo, no matter what Horcoff does, haters will hate.

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01-28-2013, 06:57 PM
  #63
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Did Dubnyk really say that?

This guy lets in at least one momentum-killing softie per game but he has the nerve to blame the rest of the team for not being good defensively? What garbage.
Agree. Dubnyk has no business calling out anyone. No matter how badly they play.

Quote:
Also, I'm sort of a Horcoff hater but I don't really find anything wrong with what he said. Maybe it's just because I'm accustomed to hearing his loser talk after every game/season.
Agreed again. When Horcoff starts talking my ears stop listening.

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01-28-2013, 07:01 PM
  #64
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Maybe he just thinks he is still young.

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01-28-2013, 07:17 PM
  #65
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Horcoff's comments are fine (they're your run-of-the-mill, generic answers to an interview). You guys are reading way too much into it.

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01-28-2013, 08:03 PM
  #66
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This thread is dumb. Horcoff stated the obvious, and has a right to do so as captain. Just like a coach, you challenge guys who look up to you. You might not like the style, but he's the captain and is within his right to do so-- not to mention that the guys in the room reportedly love him as captain (just listen to Hall or Eberle talk about him- it's admiration).

Secondly, Dubnyk's completely right in his call too. How many point-blank, unmolested shots from within the hashmarks by snipers is he going to face before they finally get the picture. Sure, he's gotta make some of those saves, but the vast majority of them have been virtually impossible to save (outside of luck). You just don't have the time to set up or react in those situations, all he can do is play the angle properly and hope those pucks hit him or miss the net.

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01-28-2013, 08:13 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Horseradish View Post
This thread is dumb. Horcoff stated the obvious, and has a right to do so as captain. Just like a coach, you challenge guys who look up to you. You might not like the style, but he's the captain and is within his right to do so-- not to mention that the guys in the room reportedly love him as captain (just listen to Hall or Eberle talk about him- it's admiration).

Secondly, Dubnyk's completely right in his call too. How many point-blank, unmolested shots from within the hashmarks by snipers is he going to face before they finally get the picture. Sure, he's gotta make some of those saves, but the vast majority of them have been virtually impossible to save (outside of luck). You just don't have the time to set up or react in those situations, all he can do is play the angle properly and hope those pucks hit him or miss the net.
Still no reason to call out your team mates. His job is to bail out his defenseman when they f up and the defensemens job is to bail him out when they need to. It's a team game, for him to blame the guys in front of him is total horses ****.

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01-28-2013, 08:17 PM
  #68
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Still no reason to call out your team mates. His job is to bail out his defenseman when they f up and the defensemens job is to bail him out when they need to. It's a team game, for him to blame the guys in front of him is total horses ****.
There is nothing unfair about saying that the guys need to pick up the 3rd man in the low slot. It's 100% true.

I didn't think it came across like he was throwing them under the bus-- just making an easy observation.

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01-28-2013, 08:41 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Horseradish View Post
There is nothing unfair about saying that the guys need to pick up the 3rd man in the low slot. It's 100% true.

I didn't think it came across like he was throwing them under the bus-- just making an easy observation.
This was the part I had a problem with "They played great in the 2nd and 3rd, wish they did that for me in the 1st." Sounds like a baby to me. Like man up and say that the whole TEAM including himself needed to be better in the first. Even if it is true you dont go around telling that to reporters. Thats something that if he's upset about it, it gets dealt with behind closed doors.

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01-29-2013, 02:21 AM
  #70
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personally i think this team better be ready for public criticism. its the sign of a competitive team with expectations.

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01-29-2013, 03:12 AM
  #71
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I agree with Replacement.

Which pretty much cements that it must be correct....

>.>
<.<

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01-29-2013, 04:28 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
They're getting beat by experience due to being inexperienced.
except our "experienced" players have actually been by far the worst.

why doesn't Horcoff mention "veteran" mistakes?

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