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Old
01-28-2013, 12:46 PM
  #1
RattleYourSabre
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Face off Woes

Did some stat searching and saw some pretty alarming numbers in the face off department...

For players who have taken 70 or more face offs, which is a sample of 40 players, Cody Hogsdon has the worst % in the group at 39.2%.

He's only won 38 face offs.

Ennis has taken 66 face offs and has won 26 of them for a similar % of 39.4%.

Hecht has taken 48 and won 15 (31.2%).

Grigorenko has taken 34 and won 16 (47%) and Ott has taken 29 and won 14 (48.3%).

These are the guys who have taken 20 or more draws for us thus far. Grigorenko and Ott are our best two face off guys, and Ott isn't centering a line for us.

How do we fix that? Coaching? Line shuffle? Let it play out? I found these numbers pretty alarming...

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01-28-2013, 12:52 PM
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The team needs to trade for a center, plain and simple. Sure, these youngsters will get better with experience, but in the meantime, they're going to get killed at the dot and make winning much more difficult.

This is what happens when you go into a season with a sophmore center as your No. 1 and a young winger convert as your No. 2. A defensive, third-line center would have been nice to back them up with, but instead, it's an 18-year-old rookie and an injury-riddled vet who seems allergic to faceoffs. So voila...a formula for being last in the league at the dot.

Regier should also be doing everything in his power to move Ennis and whatever for O'Reilly.

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01-28-2013, 12:53 PM
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Signing one of Halpern, Burish, or Konopka would've been a start. People will point to the fact that NJ finished 29th last year and made the Cup finals, but we don't have the puck possession demons that Jersey did/does. It's going to be a problem all year, unless Regier tries to make a smaller trade to address the issue.

Alarmingly, we're almost five percentage points behind the 29th team. Yikes.

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01-28-2013, 12:55 PM
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We either need hodgson to step up or get pommers to take half of his draws. Ott should take most of enzos draws. Let grigs take all of his draws. Have ellis take 4th line draws

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01-28-2013, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhett4 View Post
The team needs to trade for a center, plain and simple. Sure, these youngsters will get better with experience, but in the meantime, they're going to get killed at the dot and make winning much more difficult.

This is what happens when you go into a season with a sophmore center as your No. 1 and a young winger convert as your No. 2. A defensive, third-line center would have been nice to back them up with, but instead, it's an 18-year-old rookie and an injury-riddled vet who seems allergic to faceoffs. So voila...a formula for being last in the league at the dot.

Regier should also be doing everything in his power to move Ennis and whatever for O'Reilly.
makes too much sense to happen

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01-28-2013, 01:13 PM
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struckbyaparkedcar
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Vanek-Hodgson-Pominville
Ennis-Grigo-Stafford
Foligno-Hecht-Ott

Pominville takes draws on the first line, Grigs on the second, Ott on the third (while mentoring Hodgson in practice). That also fixes Ruff trying to shelter three separate players across three different ****ing lines.

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01-28-2013, 01:14 PM
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Zip15
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
makes too much sense to happen
Doesn't make much sense for Colorado, and if the stories are true that he wants what Benn received, I can understand Colorado's apprehension about the contract but still doubt they'd move him. It sounds like Colorado wants to give him a fair 2nd contract like Duchene and Couture, while ROR wants the medium-term deal that lets him go UFA in his prime (26-27 yrs old) and allows him to cash in again at his peak. The Avs probably want to keep Duchene-O'Reilly in place for a long time, and move Stastny in the near future for defensive help. But they don't want to give ROR five years, knowing he'd likely go to UFA and possibly (probably?) leave, thereby only giving them five more years of Duchene-O'Reilly.

Tough predicament. But I don't know Ennis makes much sense for the Avs, unless we're also throwing them someone like Girgensons who they can groom to be the next ROR.

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01-28-2013, 01:16 PM
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Doesn't make much sense for Colorado, and if the stories are true that he wants what Benn received, I can understand Colorado's apprehension about the contract but still doubt they'd move him. It sounds like Colorado wants to give him a fair 2nd contract like Duchene and Couture, while ROR wants the medium-term deal that lets him go UFA in his prime (26-27 yrs old) and allows him to cash in again at his peak. The Avs probably want to keep Duchene-O'Reilly in place for a long time, and move Stastny in the near future for defensive help. But they don't want to give ROR five years, knowing he'd likely go to UFA and possibly (probably?) leave, thereby only giving them five more years of Duchene-O'Reilly.

Tough predicament. But I don't know Ennis makes much sense for the Avs, unless we're also throwing them someone like Girgensons who they can groom to be the next ROR.
i completely agree

trading O'reilly at this stage is idiotic (so is a 1st for Varlamov, and Shat+ for EJ....... so you never know... )

But, that brings up an old issue...

Stastny?

Could we ship defensive help, and a young moderate asset (Adam or Brennan?)

I'll move this conversation over to prosposals because I think it has merrit.

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01-28-2013, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i completely agree

trading O'reilly at this stage is idiotic (so is a 1st for Varlamov, and Shat+ for EJ....... so you never know... )

But, that brings up an old issue...

Stastny?

Could we ship defensive help, and a young moderate asset (Adam or Brennan?)

I'll move this conversation over to prosposals because I think it has merrit.
Whens his contract up? We can't afford that cap hit right now

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Old
01-28-2013, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Vanek-Hodgson-Pominville
Ennis-Grigo-Stafford
Foligno-Hecht-Ott

Pominville takes draws on the first line, Grigs on the second, Ott on the third (while mentoring Hodgson in practice). That also fixes Ruff trying to shelter three separate players across three different ****ing lines.
I've mentioned before that I think we should try out those lines you posted, they just make the most sense IMO but I don't think this organization is going to give up on Ennis being the #2 center yet.

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01-28-2013, 01:29 PM
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I've mentioned before that I think we should try out those lines you posted, they just make the most sense IMO but I don't think this organization is going to give up on Ennis being the #2 center yet.
we don't need to mess with the lines... Ruff just needs to start using them properly.

V-C-P - obviously not changing

F-E-S - Why the **** is this line getting the heavy d zone draws??? Get back to using them in offensive zone situations and especially line changing to get them the proper matchups... you know, coaching

XXXX-Grigs-Ott - Get them more offensive zone draws, let Ott help with the faceoffs, and find someone to compliment them, because it's not Hecht. the only change I would make would be letting Gerbe play with this line to add some speed.

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Old
01-28-2013, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i completely agree

trading O'reilly at this stage is idiotic (so is a 1st for Varlamov, and Shat+ for EJ....... so you never know... )

But, that brings up an old issue...

Stastny?

Could we ship defensive help, and a young moderate asset (Adam or Brennan?)

I'll move this conversation over to prosposals because I think it has merrit.
Luke Adam is worth almost nothing now. He didn't even get an invite to camp on a team short of centres. What happened to that guy? He think he was Lindyed.

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Old
01-28-2013, 01:37 PM
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Luke Adam is worth almost nothing now. He didn't even get an invite to camp on a team short of centres. What happened to that guy? He think he was Lindyed.
hyperbole

He has plenty of trade value
He wasn't invited to camp because there was not a spot for him, and there barely even was a camp

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01-28-2013, 02:13 PM
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Luke Adam is worth almost nothing now. He didn't even get an invite to camp on a team short of centres. What happened to that guy? He think he was Lindyed.
He hasn't improved, he is still soft and slow.

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01-28-2013, 02:17 PM
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CarlWinslow
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Okay, I know personal anecdotes are generally crap but I'm going to share one her. And let me preface this by saying that I'm talking specifically about Hodgson and Ennis because they are so young.

I play a fairly high level of hockey. I play center. I was once awful at face offs but I was given the opportunity to simply ride it out and work on it. Yes I failed frequently but as I did it more and more, I got better. I am now elite on the dot.

So, the point is this. Given that we have all pretty much thrown any Cup hopes for this season in our collective trash bins; why not just let them play? It stands to reason that the more face offs they take, the better they will get and perhaps by next season we won't need to talk about shifting wingers in just to take draws.

Also, Yanic Perreault is retired and I am not aware of any limit on consultant fees. Hire him to show these young guys how its done and maybe it'll help. Its only money, which is no object.

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01-28-2013, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by CarlWinslow View Post
Okay, I know personal anecdotes are generally crap but I'm going to share one her. And let me preface this by saying that I'm talking specifically about Hodgson and Ennis because they are so young.

I play a fairly high level of hockey. I play center. I was once awful at face offs but I was given the opportunity to simply ride it out and work on it. Yes I failed frequently but as I did it more and more, I got better. I am now elite on the dot.

So, the point is this. Given that we have all pretty much thrown any Cup hopes for this season in our collective trash bins; why not just let them play? It stands to reason that the more face offs they take, the better they will get and perhaps by next season we won't need to talk about shifting wingers in just to take draws.

Also, Yanic Perreault is retired and I am not aware of any limit on consultant fees. Hire him to show these young guys how its done and maybe it'll help. Its only money, which is no object.
agreed, let them learn. Our team is young, a developmental year would be beneficial. Also yes their is definitely technique in faceoffs, but a lot of it is battle and intensity.

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01-28-2013, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
we don't need to mess with the lines... Ruff just needs to start using them properly.

V-C-P - obviously not changing

F-E-S - Why the **** is this line getting the heavy d zone draws??? Get back to using them in offensive zone situations and especially line changing to get them the proper matchups... you know, coaching

XXXX-Grigs-Ott - Get them more offensive zone draws, let Ott help with the faceoffs, and find someone to compliment them, because it's not Hecht. the only change I would make would be letting Gerbe play with this line to add some speed.
I had a whole paragraph typed out about how what you're asking isn't really possible because two lines of the top nine were already getting 55% or better zone starts, but then I saw Matt Ellis at 62.5%, forcibly applied my forehead to my keyboard, and deleted all of it.


Last edited by struckbyaparkedcar: 01-28-2013 at 03:10 PM. Reason: typo - "top nine" not "top six"
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Old
01-28-2013, 03:08 PM
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Jame
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
I had a whole paragraph typed out about how what you're asking isn't really possible because two lines of the top six were already getting 55% or better zone starts, but then I saw Matt Ellis at 62.5%, forcibly applied my forehead to my keyboard, and deleted all of it.
I knew we were in for another season of Lindy demonstrating how truly terrible he is as a coach, when he announced that he would use the Ennis line the way he had always used the Roy line.

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01-28-2013, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CarlWinslow View Post
Okay, I know personal anecdotes are generally crap but I'm going to share one her. And let me preface this by saying that I'm talking specifically about Hodgson and Ennis because they are so young.

I play a fairly high level of hockey. I play center. I was once awful at face offs but I was given the opportunity to simply ride it out and work on it. Yes I failed frequently but as I did it more and more, I got better. I am now elite on the dot.

So, the point is this. Given that we have all pretty much thrown any Cup hopes for this season in our collective trash bins; why not just let them play? It stands to reason that the more face offs they take, the better they will get and perhaps by next season we won't need to talk about shifting wingers in just to take draws.

Also, Yanic Perreault is retired and I am not aware of any limit on consultant fees. Hire him to show these young guys how its done and maybe it'll help. Its only money, which is no object.
Thanks for the post, good to hear from someone who plays!

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Old
01-29-2013, 06:40 AM
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Just another game within the game that Darcy conveniently forgets about when building his teams. Much like the grit aspect we've been lacking in our top 6 for close to a decade.

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01-29-2013, 08:02 AM
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But Andrew Peters says faceoffs don't matter!

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01-29-2013, 09:03 AM
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A few thoughts -- how much of their faceoff strategy involved a guy playing the puck with his hand? I recall more than a few draws where the winner was pawing it back to the defense in recent years.

Winning faceoffs is a skill. It takes a certain amount of dedication and effort to improve -- we see a bunch of relative kids getting schooled at the dot every night and that isn't a surprise. Faceoffs aren't a sexy skill -- guys aren't making TSN or ESPN winning faceoffs 55% of the time. And guys have to find a style that works for them -- some can win it with a bullrush type move, some are all about handspeed and anticipation. Don Luce was a master at it and talks about not only practicing it but learning the linesmen's tendancies when dropping the puck through film study so he might have a tell when they were going to drop the puck.

Coaching is missing here as much as personnel. I suspect the brain trust yet again expected one new player (in this case Ott) to address a team-wide weakness (see: Toughness, Lack of or Defenseman, Defensive) and yet the guys going out there to win draws are simply outmatched. Working on it sucks. But this is a possession game and a possession team, so someone on the staff (Adams) has to have all of the guys out there working extra on draws every damned day. Every. Day. Break down film for tendancies, review it with the players, and win some ****ing draws already.

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01-29-2013, 09:50 AM
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The first time I read the title I thought it was Face of Woe and figured it would have been a compilation of Lindy's look of disgust

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Old
01-29-2013, 11:17 AM
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Being that bad at faceoffs screams at a lack of attention to detail, and that the coaching staff isn't very good at their jobs. Sure, there is some natural talent in it (hand-eye coordination), but you can basically drill it into a player so that they're at least adequate (45% over a large sample size).

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01-29-2013, 11:43 AM
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Being that bad at faceoffs screams at a lack of attention to detail, and that the coaching staff isn't very good at their jobs. Sure, there is some natural talent in it (hand-eye coordination), but you can basically drill it into a player so that they're at least adequate (45% over a large sample size).
How DARE you say that about these coaches!














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