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01-28-2013, 12:30 PM
  #251
tycoonheart
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Perhaps Oates is thinking to get Ovi playing like Ovi he needs to realize that he needs to carry his line and not really rely on anyone else. I know its a weird thinking but... hell, Ovi looked magnificent playing with Clarke and Zubrus.

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01-28-2013, 12:30 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
Sometimes a players ceiling is no factor in deciding who he plays with.



While I do think Beagle being a RH shot could be a factor in being at 1C, it may just be for his faceoff prowess. Or, it may be what we saw in the playoffs.

It could be the sacrificial lamb. You want Ovi at LW? Fine, but don't get upset if coach decides he doesn't need high skill linemates, since he tends to not use his linemates. When he was at his best, he didn't. He used Green. But he was clearly looking to pass yesterday and he needs to stop when with grinders. Those were some feeble passes.

The other lines simply have to score for it to work. Ribs is doing his part, Nick is next. 1 brings Ovi and defense.

Maybe this is a product of not knowing the game because I'm not in it but...I would think that putting Ovechkin on a line with two terrible grinders does the exact opposite of balance that particular line.

Years ago, the neutering of Ovechkin was attributed to having all eyes on him. Then Nicky comes along and you can't isolate Ovechkin anymore. Now...we have our three offensive threats on three different lines. I guess that balances the team in general...as each line has a threat...with zero help. Are we really anticipating winning games with Ribs flinging pucks in Joel Ward's general direction and hoping something good happens or getting goals from our #7/8 defenseman who just flung the puck at the net?

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01-28-2013, 12:35 PM
  #253
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color me lost. i took a lot of grief in the offseason/lockout layoff saying that beagle was NOT going to be skating 4th line center. and...see? he's not.

this oates thing of skating ovechkin with beagle and crabb though, is as bad an idea as giving beagle ovechkin's ice time when the caps got a lead under hunter. particularly when ov looked like he was set free when he appeared on the ice with 19 and 20.

now...he's back in jail?

i dont get it.

edit: there is no way that i would call beagle 1c. ovechkin is 3LW.

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01-28-2013, 12:35 PM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
Sometimes a players ceiling is no factor in deciding who he plays with.



While I do think Beagle being a RH shot could be a factor in being at 1C, it may just be for his faceoff prowess. Or, it may be what we saw in the playoffs.

It could be the sacrificial lamb. You want Ovi at LW? Fine, but don't get upset if coach decides he doesn't need high skill linemates, since he tends to not use his linemates. When he was at his best, he didn't. He used Green. But he was clearly looking to pass yesterday and he needs to stop when with grinders. Those were some feeble passes.

The other lines simply have to score for it to work. Ribs is doing his part, Nick is next. 1 brings Ovi and defense.
Just put em out for offensive zone draws. Beagle wins the faceoff, Ovie one times it. Fool proof.

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01-28-2013, 12:38 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by tycoonheart View Post
Perhaps Oates is thinking to get Ovi playing like Ovi he needs to realize that he needs to carry his line and not really rely on anyone else. I know its a weird thinking but... hell, Ovi looked magnificent playing with Clarke and Zubrus.
Because Clark and Zubrus knew how to defer to him, create space and where to go to open up lanes for him. So did Kozlov. So did Knuble. They're utility players who know how to defer to star players while at the same time creating space for them, and having enough offensive skills to keep plays alive when they need to.

I'm all for linemates like that (Setoguchi, Zubrus, Kulemin, Fisher, Antropov, Weiss, Pavelski, Glencross, Purcell, Kunitz, Neal, Dupuis, Kennedy (note how many of them are Pens players) come to mind as those types), but Beagle ain't it. Closest we have to a Knuble or Kozlov on the roster right now is Ward or Brouwer (though Ward seems to be much better at recognizing where he has to be and what plays to make, Brouwer has a fairly limited hockey IQ), and closest we have to a C that knows how to defer to Ovechkin while still playing at a high level is Ribeiro. There's your line. Ovechkin Ribeiro Ward. The latter 2 already have chemistry. Then Wolski-Backstrom-Brouwer. Then Chimera-Johansson-Beagle. Wasn't that hard now was it?

The only good part about skating Ovechkin with Beagle and Crabb is that McPhee now has a convenient reason to fire him should Lavy become available.

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01-28-2013, 12:39 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
color me lost. i took a lot of grief in the offseason/lockout layoff saying that beagle was NOT going to be skating 4th line center. and...see? he's not.

this oates thing of skating ovechkin with beagle and crabb though, is as bad an idea as giving beagle ovechkin's ice time when the caps got a lead under hunter. particularly when ov looked like he was set free when he appeared on the ice with 19 and 20.

now...he's back in jail?

i dont get it.

edit: there is no way that i would call beagle 1c. ovechkin is 3LW.
So what does it say about Ovi when two coaches have done this now? I love the guy, but maybe the guy isn't grasping the system as much as Oates would like? I dunno what it is. One thing I liked about Bruce was that he would stay the course and let the players figure it out to get over their funk. Unless your name was Semin.

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01-28-2013, 12:42 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Liberation View Post
Beagle isn't at 1C; Ovechkin is at 3LW. Backstrom and Ribeiro are both better players than Ovechkin at this point, and their lines are the first two.


Don't you think it would be a lead story across the hockey world?

All Oates did was make 3 scoring lines.

I question that Nick is playing better, and assume Ovi's TOI / usage does not reflect that of a 3rd liner.

Ovi has done nothing to get demoted. This is simply him after Montreal. He is our only scoring winger and best even at his worst. He was 5th last year in goals.

Oates is simply trying to get him to be his old self.

JoeB knows it and is saying it right now actually.

Ovi will butter Oates bread; he is not that dumb to demote him.

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01-28-2013, 12:42 PM
  #258
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When he has an opportunity to get around the defenseman, he usually takes it. The drop passes usually occur when he gains the zone, and the other team has two or three defenders back. Is he going to weave between all of them?

Would you rather he constantly dump and chase than drop pass? Is that not just as predictable of a move? Don't we have enough dump and chase guys on this team? I'm glad there's someone on this roster who can actually gain the zone while maintaining possession.
The only times Johansson even bothers trying to skate pass a defenseman is on zone-entry on the power play. The Caps have better players that can do that one thing, none of whom become completely useless upon gaining the zone. Ribeiro is especially good at this.

Johansson simply does not have the skill to NOT skate around a defenseman or dump and chase without being a liability. There is nothing wrong with dump and chase if he can be effective using his speed to create chances playing that style. Because he sure as hell isn't close to good at maintaining possession with all his bad turnovers.

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They're not even remotely comparable players. Completely different skill sets.
Wolski loves his drop passes to get out of getting hit. Their mentalities trump their skills. You are right about them being different in that Wolski is far more talented offensively when he wants to be.

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Old
01-28-2013, 12:43 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tycoonheart View Post
So what does it say about Ovi when two coaches have done this now? I love the guy, but maybe the guy isn't grasping the system as much as Oates would like? I dunno what it is. One thing I liked about Bruce was that he would stay the course and let the players figure it out to get over their funk. Unless your name was Semin.
lol @ "The system".

What the **** is Oates system because all I have seen are elementary dump and chase fests...which I would assume would work rather well on the 10% chance we actually win those races...if you put Nicky and Ovie on the same line.

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01-28-2013, 12:44 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
All Oates did was make 3 scoring lines.
.
No...he took our 2/3rds of one scoring line and 1/3rd of a second scoring line and made 3 1/3rd scoring lines...

I know some of us get math boners, but that just doesn't spell good hockey.

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01-28-2013, 12:49 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post


Don't you think it would be a lead story across the hockey world?

All Oates did was make 3 scoring lines.

I question that Nick is playing better, and assume Ovi's TOI / usage does not reflect that of a 3rd liner.

Ovi has done nothing to get demoted. This is simply him after Montreal. He is our only scoring winger and best even at his worst. He was 5th last year in goals.

Oates is simply trying to get him to be his old self.

JoeB knows it and is saying it right now actually.

Ovi will butter Oates bread; he is not that dumb to demote him.
He's probably not putting Ovechkin at 3LW because he thinks Ovechkin deserves that role. Putting Ovechkin at 3LW is probably either his attempt to draw on Hunter's approach and make Ovechkin play more responsibly or a weird, probably totally ineffective attempt to troll and confuse opposing teams. But Ovechkin is playing 3LW right now.

Edit: This is a hockey board, so I guess what I meant to say was "play more responsible."


Last edited by Liberati0n: 01-28-2013 at 12:54 PM.
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01-28-2013, 12:51 PM
  #262
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there is almost no comparison between beagle and zubrus. zubrus was/is a skilled player. he is a top 6 forward no matter how you slice it. clark proved that playing on a line with some skill that with his speed and grit that he had enough hands to finish with some regularity. he lost that when he lost his speed advantage.

neither beagle nor crabb had elite speed that clark did.

my take on ovechkin with beagle and crabb is all about ovechkin not wanting to play right wing. he got moved to beagle when i pushed oates to move him back to the left. oates has said that he still thinks ovechkin is a right wing. i would not be surprised that we dont see ovechkin permanantly moved back to backstrom til he is willing to play rw with the same enthusiasum as he played on lw with him yesterday

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01-28-2013, 12:55 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by tycoonheart View Post
Perhaps Oates is thinking to get Ovi playing like Ovi he needs to realize that he needs to carry his line and not really rely on anyone else. I know its a weird thinking but... hell, Ovi looked magnificent playing with Clarke and Zubrus.
He looked great with everyone and anyone. Hence, old Ovi did things himself and could not be stopped. Defenses scrambled after his bull rush.

I think you are right, Oates wants him to learn, don't pass to Beagle. Shoot! (the glass). Oates is desperate. The fans are talking trade.

But Ovi simply seems to be over thinking things right now, and big time.

The experiment at RW ended but ~ half his rushes came from the left side, and it was still not open for his old move.

Being our only scorer, we didn't have the time to let RW play out. I do not expect him to find life at LW any easier no matter his center. That center coming back, the LD moving over are going find less reason to cover anyone else now.

Look for Nick and Brouwer with Ovi early and often.

Odd group for a 3rd line

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01-28-2013, 01:16 PM
  #264
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Old Ovi had unbridled enthusiasm that comes from being a young guy in the NHL and proving to everyone that he's the ****. All of his go to moves are epic looking moves that you'd do to impress your buddies at a beer league game and follow up with a fist pump. He made them work while no one else in the NHL did. Current Ovi still has it in the playoffs and looks great with everyone in the playoffs (to an extent).

We need to adapt to his regular season game being less enthusiastic. You can ***** all you want about him being unprofessional or whatever but unless you're a revolutionary neurosurgeon there's not much you can do about it. What we can do, though, is make the regular season more fun for him. This means putting out a team that looks foolproof on paper - he doesn't have a cloud of upcoming playoff failure hanging over him and can just go back to carefreely scoring goals. Those first 3 years we made the playoffs I think he really thought we could go all the way, since it was so new to him and no one knew what the true potential of our young guns was, hell it seemed like they were all gonna be hall of famers. Not the case since Montreal. Do you think this team can go all the way? No? Well, do you think this team can go all the way with Ovechkin playing better than he ever had in his life? Still no? Well, that's a bit hard to get excited about if you're Ovechkin, isn't it? Especially since the more you invest, the more disappointed you're gonna be. Our brain loves to overprotect us in any way it can.

In addition, we need to put him with Zubrus and Clark type guys, but hopefully better. Then he can also go back to being the go to guy on his line but with linemates that still play in a way that lets him elevate his game. He'd probably go to being a 45g/95-100p player and Conn Smythe playoff performer once we clear that fog from his head.

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01-28-2013, 01:24 PM
  #265
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0.58 P/G alone is not going to buy a lot of time in the NHL. What a player brings when the points aren't there has lot to do with his effectiveness as a NHL player, and it's pretty clear what Johansson brings is not anything good or else he would have been playing. He is a 3rd year pro that has not addressed his significant weaknesses.

Bondra is irrelevant to this discussion since he was an All-Star by his 3rd season.

Adam Oates actually ended up playing more games for the Caps than Allison did for the Bruins, and was the the 1st line center for the team that made it to the SCF. So it worked out pretty well for the Caps.
A 48 pt season equates to around 105-110th in the league in scoring the last 5 years....I'd say that's going to buy a lot of time in the NHL, especially for a 22yr old.

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01-28-2013, 01:32 PM
  #266
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Beagle is definitely an Oates fav. Heard Vogel talking on the radio the other night between periods and he mentioned that Oates being a former Center loves to work individually with his centers and apparently he had been working hard with Beagle on face offs (during yesterday's third period Joe B said that Beagle had won 80% of his face offs in that game up until that point). Also during this past summer Oates had looked at the stick that Beagle was using and Oates sent hims some new sticks that he thought would work better for Beagle.

Ribeiro's atrocious on face offs.
If Beagle is smart he'll absorb as much faceoff knowledge and help from Oates as he can. It may extend his NHL career if he can become a beast on the dot.

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01-28-2013, 01:34 PM
  #267
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there is almost no comparison between beagle and zubrus. zubrus was/is a skilled player. he is a top 6 forward no matter how you slice it. clark proved that playing on a line with some skill that with his speed and grit that he had enough hands to finish with some regularity. he lost that when he lost his speed advantage.

neither beagle nor crabb had elite speed that clark did.

my take on ovechkin with beagle and crabb is all about ovechkin not wanting to play right wing. he got moved to beagle when i pushed oates to move him back to the left. oates has said that he still thinks ovechkin is a right wing. i would not be surprised that we dont see ovechkin permanantly moved back to backstrom til he is willing to play rw with the same enthusiasum as he played on lw with him yesterday
Wait...Chris Clark had elite speed? In which alternate reality?

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01-28-2013, 01:34 PM
  #268
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Wait...Chris Clark had elite speed? In which alternate reality?
Clark > Sloan

Mind blown.

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01-28-2013, 01:43 PM
  #269
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Chris Old War Horse Clark

You know what makes Ovi happy, scoring goals. I largely agree with all you said CCF, but think the PP is an easy way out. Did you see him smile after his goal? Green HAS to get him the puck far more often, even if it ends up off target. Just try.

Of course the real laugher would have been potting that empty netter. I feel like its been 2 years since i saw him whip one 150 ft without hesitation.

He seems such a headcase now, i bet that ENG fail is in his head. It's in mine, clearly

/vegas

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01-28-2013, 01:44 PM
  #270
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That had to hurt losing the bet on that ENG post....

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01-28-2013, 01:44 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by IkeaMonkey View Post
No...he took our 2/3rds of one scoring line and 1/3rd of a second scoring line and made 3 1/3rd scoring lines...

I know some of us get math boners, but that just doesn't spell good hockey.
I think the idea is 3 lines that 'can' score but I agree with you.

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01-28-2013, 01:46 PM
  #272
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That had to hurt losing the bet on that ENG post....
2

-1.5 +280

And the over.

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01-28-2013, 01:54 PM
  #273
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It's high time Nick be able to carry his line, don't we think? He makes a lot of money too, and should be able to produce points with the same guys Ribs did.

Ribs gets Chimera and Ward, two of our big scorers this year.

This is the team George built.

The listed lines at practice don't mean dick anyways. Bruce would usually abandon them by the end of the first period. If I were a coach, I would do crap lines in practice to throw off opponents.

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01-28-2013, 02:56 PM
  #274
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2

-1.5 +280

And the over.
been there...bitter...

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01-28-2013, 03:16 PM
  #275
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Oates said during his interview today that "Schultz was a dominant defenseman in this league a couple of years ago."

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