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Mark Scheifele sent back to Barrie Colts (OHL)

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Old
01-28-2013, 02:55 AM
  #351
garret9
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Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
He is good at a junior level but barely capable of getting a point in the NHL.
The Jets drafted him way too high.

Leave him in Barrie or St John's for 3 more years to collect dust.

I am not sold on him being a superstar & just being real.
Re pop this thread in 5 years & prove me wrong.
Dude... I don't get why everything is black and white and your arguments are terrible and hugely over exaggerated

He is good at junior level and has struggled to get points in the NHL... but really? Seriously? It's not as easy as that. Your usage as a player will effect your stats more than talent or skill will and that's a fact. Ex: no 4th line player without PP ever gets near the top 90 in points... You can't use that as a judge... He's created offensive opportunities consistently which is promising and his skillset is one that is typically more transferable to NHL level than some other skillsets are. Even experts who were/are hard on Scheifele consider him a pretty safe pick as he is all but guaranteed to be at minimum a decent 3rd line centre. Look how many points Nino got in the NHL last year and he's still considered a possible first liner... and he's older.
PS how "too high" did they take him? 3 spots? 10 spots? 100 spots? Keep in mind that most of the 3rd party scouting services just before the draft said 11-13 but wouldn't be surprised if he hits late top10 due to being a late bloomer. I get how people would have rather had other players (heck I was one)... but to stay bitter about it when it's already happened is ridiculous. Had we been in the ~11thish spot and selected him, I'm sure 80% of the negative comments like these wouldn't be said.

You should go to the casino and put your life savings on one number on the roulette table. Because although you could potentially win and Scheifele could potentially "collect dust" for 3 years in St John's, you have a greater realistic chance of winning on one go than that coming true. Think about it... Scheifele is almost proving himself worth getting on a team that already has a set top9 at 19... and you think he won't make the team at 23... OKAY!!

Your last comment is what really bothers me. Everyone in the anti-Scheifele camp keeps saying things like: I don't see him as elite, I don't see him as a superstar, I don't see him as the Jets saviour, etc. etc.
When the hell has anyone said they expected that? Most of the people here say he looks like below-average 1C to above-average 2C... Which believe it or not is statistically a good find at that draft position (as Grind's little breakdown of chance of top6 depending on position determined).
You say you are being real yet you are far from being realistic by intentionally exaggerating and ignore realistic facts....

Opinions are one thing and fine, but if you want a realistic opinion base them all on facts.

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01-28-2013, 06:34 AM
  #352
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Dude... I don't get why everything is black and white and your arguments are terrible and hugely over exaggerated

He is good at junior level and has struggled to get points in the NHL... but really? Seriously? It's not as easy as that. Your usage as a player will effect your stats more than talent or skill will and that's a fact. Ex: no 4th line player without PP ever gets near the top 90 in points... You can't use that as a judge... He's created offensive opportunities consistently which is promising and his skillset is one that is typically more transferable to NHL level than some other skillsets are. Even experts who were/are hard on Scheifele consider him a pretty safe pick as he is all but guaranteed to be at minimum a decent 3rd line centre. Look how many points Nino got in the NHL last year and he's still considered a possible first liner... and he's older.
PS how "too high" did they take him? 3 spots? 10 spots? 100 spots? Keep in mind that most of the 3rd party scouting services just before the draft said 11-13 but wouldn't be surprised if he hits late top10 due to being a late bloomer. I get how people would have rather had other players (heck I was one)... but to stay bitter about it when it's already happened is ridiculous. Had we been in the ~11thish spot and selected him, I'm sure 80% of the negative comments like these wouldn't be said.

You should go to the casino and put your life savings on one number on the roulette table. Because although you could potentially win and Scheifele could potentially "collect dust" for 3 years in St John's, you have a greater realistic chance of winning on one go than that coming true. Think about it... Scheifele is almost proving himself worth getting on a team that already has a set top9 at 19... and you think he won't make the team at 23... OKAY!!

Your last comment is what really bothers me. Everyone in the anti-Scheifele camp keeps saying things like: I don't see him as elite, I don't see him as a superstar, I don't see him as the Jets saviour, etc. etc.
When the hell has anyone said they expected that? Most of the people here say he looks like below-average 1C to above-average 2C... Which believe it or not is statistically a good find at that draft position (as Grind's little breakdown of chance of top6 depending on position determined).
You say you are being real yet you are far from being realistic by intentionally exaggerating and ignore realistic facts....

Opinions are one thing and fine, but if you want a realistic opinion base them all on facts.
Agreed and nice supporting argument for Scheifele. I'm a big supporter of Scheif and hoping he gets more of a chance to prove himself before being sent back to Barrie. Saying that doesn't mean I didn't want the Jets to pick a couple other players before him, but the kid is ours now and has done everything asked of him. IMO he projects as a solid 2nd line centre. He sees the ice really well, has great hockey sense and decent offensive skills. And once he fills out a bit he will have the required size Chevy appears to covet.

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01-28-2013, 11:56 AM
  #353
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The thing that bothers me is that they could of had Sean Couturier who is already producing at an NHL level for Philly.

They could have waited until the second round of the draft to acquire Scheifele as not many teams had him on their radar.

I really hope that Scheifele becomes a good NHL player but I am not so pro Jets that I am wearing blinders.

I never said that I hated him but when you have a better player available in the draft don't gift them to other teams.

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01-28-2013, 12:01 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
The thing that bothers me is that they could of had Sean Couturier who is already producing at an NHL level for Philly.

They could have waited until the second round of the draft to acquire Scheifele as not many teams had him on their radar.

I really hope that Scheifele becomes a good NHL player but I am not so pro Jets that I am wearing blinders.
You're fooling yourself if you really think that Scheifele would have sit to the second round. There was someone sitting down at the tables where the GMs sit saying that at least one other franchise moaned when the Jets picked Scheifele. It was on his twitter AFAIK.


I accept the fact that Couturier looks like the better player RIGHT NOW but that still has nothing to say about what they will turn out to be. Chances are still 50-50, there are enough examples out there.

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01-28-2013, 12:01 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
The thing that bothers me is that they could of had Sean Couturier who is already producing at an NHL level for Philly.

They could have waited until the second round of the draft to acquire Scheifele as not many teams had him on their radar.

I really hope that Scheifele becomes a good NHL player but I am not so pro Jets that I am wearing blinders.
So we're wrong for not selecting the Fifth ranked player at 7th,

but the remaining ...22 teams would not be incorrect for not selecting the 15th ranked skater between slots 15-37??? (HAD the jets even had a second round pick- which they didn't!)

you can talk about opinions, but this is misinformed and incorrect.

It's been well documented that Schiefele was Carolina's guy at the draft, who picked 12th.

the Couturier thing has been beaten ad nauseum. i'd have preferred him too, but whats the point in pissing and moaning about it now? We've got schiefele and all signs point to him being good value for the position he was taken (even if there was better value on the table) hindsights 20/20.


EDIT:i'm assuming no one complaining about this actually watched either excessively in junior, so they're probably going off of third party magazines rankings. Which is funny, because we get this:
Third party scouts say couturier was the guy we should have picked- I BELIEVE IT! Jets = wrong!
Third party scouts say schiefele is now almost a lock as a 2c with possible 1 c upside- i don't believe it! jets= wrong!

you can't use one as the crux of your argument without acknowledging the validity of the other, unless you rbasing it on your own research and viewing opinion.


Last edited by Grind: 01-28-2013 at 12:20 PM.
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01-28-2013, 12:06 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
The thing that bothers me is that they could of had Sean Couturier who is already producing at an NHL level for Philly.

They could have waited until the second round of the draft to acquire Scheifele as not many teams had him on their radar.

I really hope that Scheifele becomes a good NHL player but I am not so pro Jets that I am wearing blinders.

I never said that I hated him but when you have a better player available in the draft don't gift them to other teams.
+1 (hear hear)

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01-28-2013, 12:09 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
So we're wrong for not selecting the Fifth ranked player at 7th,

but the remaining ...22 teams would not be incorrect for not selecting the 15th ranked skater between slots 15-37??? (HAD the jets even had a second round pick- which they didn't!)

you can talk about opinions, but this is misinformed and incorrect.

It's been well documented that Schiefele was Carolina's guy at the draft, who picked 12th.

the Couturier thing has been beaten ad nauseum. i'd have preferred him too, but whats the point in pissing and moaning about it now? We've got schiefele and all signs point to him being good value for the position he was taken (even if there was better value on the table) hindsights 20/20.
Thanks

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01-28-2013, 12:10 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
So we're wrong for not selecting the Fifth ranked player at 7th,

but the remaining ...22 teams would not be incorrect for not selecting the 15th ranked skater between slots 15-37??? (HAD the jets even had a second round pick- which they didn't!)

you can talk about opinions, but this is misinformed and incorrect.

It's been well documented that Schiefele was Carolina's guy at the draft, who picked 12th.

the Couturier thing has been beaten ad nauseum. i'd have preferred him too, but whats the point in pissing and moaning about it now? We've got schiefele and all signs point to him being good value for the position he was taken (even if there was better value on the table) hindsights 20/20.
Canes ended up with Ryan Murphy, pretty darn good I'd say...

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01-28-2013, 12:12 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
The thing that bothers me is that they could of had Sean Couturier who is already producing at an NHL level for Philly.

They could have waited until the second round of the draft to acquire Scheifele as not many teams had him on their radar.

I really hope that Scheifele becomes a good NHL player but I am not so pro Jets that I am wearing blinders.
The only reason I can think of that the Jets picked Scheifele when they did was because they really wanted him and they didn't have a pick in the 2nd round that year and were worried that Scheifele wasn't going to be there when it was their turn to pick in the 3rd round.

It is debatable if they could have picked Scheifele 67th overall.

As far as Scheifele, he should be playing in the AHL IMO, but there are rules against that.

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01-28-2013, 12:14 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
So we're wrong for not selecting the Fifth ranked player at 7th,

but the remaining ...22 teams would not be incorrect for not selecting the 15th ranked skater between slots 15-37??? (HAD the jets even had a second round pick- which they didn't!)

you can talk about opinions, but this is misinformed and incorrect.

It's been well documented that Schiefele was Carolina's guy at the draft, who picked 12th.

the Couturier thing has been beaten ad nauseum. i'd have preferred him too, but whats the point in pissing and moaning about it now? We've got schiefele and all signs point to him being good value for the position he was taken (even if there was better value on the table) hindsights 20/20.
I don't think people are really upset about a better player being taken after our pick. those things happen. The issue with the Schefleigh pick was our scouting staff went off the board to pick him, when the general consensus was that Coutourier was the better player. When you make a bold pick and it doesn't pan out there is more explaining to do then if you make the logical pick and it doesn't work out. (Not that Scheif hasn't panned out. too early to make a determination)

ie Daigle piced first overall. Didn't pan out but every team in the league would have picked him first overall so its not really bad drafting.

But Sergei Bautin picked 17th overall and Bob McKenzie was like "who the hell did they just pick, we think it was Sergei Brelin not expected to go til the second round" and doesn't pan out is just a bad drafting.



Edit: you can get private hockey lessons from Bautin in Denver if you're interested: http://www.evolutionelitehockey.com/...rivate-lessons
I imagine it'll be like that Jetta comemrical where the dad teaches the kid how to throw a baseball horribly. He'll teach you how to be a pylon.


Last edited by cheswick: 01-28-2013 at 12:37 PM. Reason: link
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01-28-2013, 12:20 PM
  #361
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Dude... I don't get why everything is black and white and your arguments are terrible and hugely over exaggerated

He is good at junior level and has struggled to get points in the NHL... but really? Seriously? It's not as easy as that. Your usage as a player will effect your stats more than talent or skill will and that's a fact. Ex: no 4th line player without PP ever gets near the top 90 in points... You can't use that as a judge... He's created offensive opportunities consistently which is promising and his skillset is one that is typically more transferable to NHL level than some other skillsets are. Even experts who were/are hard on Scheifele consider him a pretty safe pick as he is all but guaranteed to be at minimum a decent 3rd line centre. Look how many points Nino got in the NHL last year and he's still considered a possible first liner... and he's older.
PS how "too high" did they take him? 3 spots? 10 spots? 100 spots? Keep in mind that most of the 3rd party scouting services just before the draft said 11-13 but wouldn't be surprised if he hits late top10 due to being a late bloomer. I get how people would have rather had other players (heck I was one)... but to stay bitter about it when it's already happened is ridiculous. Had we been in the ~11thish spot and selected him, I'm sure 80% of the negative comments like these wouldn't be said.

You should go to the casino and put your life savings on one number on the roulette table. Because although you could potentially win and Scheifele could potentially "collect dust" for 3 years in St John's, you have a greater realistic chance of winning on one go than that coming true. Think about it... Scheifele is almost proving himself worth getting on a team that already has a set top9 at 19... and you think he won't make the team at 23... OKAY!!

Your last comment is what really bothers me. Everyone in the anti-Scheifele camp keeps saying things like: I don't see him as elite, I don't see him as a superstar, I don't see him as the Jets saviour, etc. etc.
When the hell has anyone said they expected that? Most of the people here say he looks like below-average 1C to above-average 2C... Which believe it or not is statistically a good find at that draft position (as Grind's little breakdown of chance of top6 depending on position determined).
You say you are being real yet you are far from being realistic by intentionally exaggerating and ignore realistic facts....

Opinions are one thing and fine, but if you want a realistic opinion base them all on facts.
He's done nothing the last two games.

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01-28-2013, 12:22 PM
  #362
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He's done nothing the last two games.
I"m assuming that's a joke?

take issue with the coach not schief as i he certainly didn't "deserve" to be benched.

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01-28-2013, 12:26 PM
  #363
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I don't think people are really upset about a better player being taken after our pick. those things happen. The issue with the Schefleigh pick was our scouting staff went off the board to pick him, when the general consensus was that Coutourier was the better player. When you make a bold pick and it doesn't pan out there is more explaining to do then if you make the logical pick and it doesn't work out. (Not that Scheif hasn't panned out. too early to make a determination)

ie Daigle piced first overall. Didn't pan out but every team in the league would have picked him first overall so its not really bad drafting.

But Sergei Bautin picked 17th overall and Bob McKenzie was like "who the hell did they just pick, we think it was Sergei Brelin not expected to go til the second round" and doesn't pan out is just a bad drafting.
I Agree completely. It was exactly how i felt. The problem is the "OMG WHY NOT COUTURIER?!" crowed isn't willing to give this the necessary time, their writing it off as a failure already. Which is short sighted, misinformed, and premature. Not exactly an educated stand point and thus all the more infuriating.

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01-28-2013, 12:30 PM
  #364
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The only reason I can think of that the Jets picked Scheifele when they did was because they really wanted him and they didn't have a pick in the 2nd round that year and were worried that Scheifele wasn't going to be there when it was their turn to pick in the 3rd round.

It is debatable if they could have picked Scheifele 67th overall.

As far as Scheifele, he should be playing in the AHL IMO, but there are rules against that.
This is one of the craziest things I've read.

It really isn't debatable. It's laughable; you're just mixing up your -ables.

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01-28-2013, 12:53 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
The thing that bothers me is that they could of had Sean Couturier who is already producing at an NHL level for Philly.

They could have waited until the second round of the draft to acquire Scheifele as not many teams had him on their radar.

I really hope that Scheifele becomes a good NHL player but I am not so pro Jets that I am wearing blinders.

I never said that I hated him but when you have a better player available in the draft don't gift them to other teams.
Again I need to point out that all scouting reports that were completed within 2 weeks before the draft (so the most up to date) said:
Scheifele 100% top 15 with strong case to eek his way into top 10... IF Couturier was really "consensus" better than Scheifele was "consensus" top 15 pick and therefore not available in the THIRD round (where Jets' had their next pick and took Lowry).

Yes Couturier was the "averaged out better pick"... NOT consensus. Consensus would mean EVERY scout thought he was better. A player who drops CANNOT be consensus otherwise every scout would actually want him there on every team and therefore he wouldn't have an opportunity to drop. The whole meaning of the word consensus does not fit here.

People need to wake up and realize how the scouting and their lists work. No scout see's every player consistently enough to have an opinion on every player.
Every team has different traits that they weigh on heavier than others (size, speed, grit, shot, puck handling, skating stride, acceleration, mechanics, IQ) and every scout will have a difference in opinion about how two players with the same skill-set may compare.
This is a very subjective area. It's not black and white. Look on the mainboards and see how there NEVER is consensus on ___ vs ___, even when you remove the homerism picks. The whole thing is based off tiers.

Was Couturier a better pick with the knowledge at the time? Maybe... Possibly... but some scouts disagreed, which include TNSE.
Will Couturier turn out to be better than Scheifele? Maybe... Possibly... but it's really impossible to tell. Look how players drafted previously turn out. Some may start off better but than fade. Some start weak but continuously get better. Some have better years and then have not so great years.
Was Scheifele a second round pick... You cannot be serious in thinking this....

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01-28-2013, 01:02 PM
  #366
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Again I need to point out that all scouting reports that were completed within 2 weeks before the draft (so the most up to date) said:
Scheifele 100% top 15 with strong case to eek his way into top 10...
All of them certianly did not.

He was ranked
16th North American Skater by Central Scouting.
18th by International scouting services
41st by the hockey news
and 12th by Bob MacKenzie (which is an amalgomation of 10 scouts) He was 21st in the mid season mackenzie rankings.

TSN's Analysis at the time:
Strengths - Good head and hands, puck competitive, sees the ice well, nifty stickhandler, hard shot and quick release, excellent playmaker.
Weaknesses - has to add some muscle and improve his quickness, lacks power and needs to lengthen stride, not a bruiser. Needs to learn to bring his 'A' game every night.
NHL Upside - A bit raw, but if his skating comes along has the potential to be a productive center who is responsible at both ends of the ice.

I think his weaknesses listed back then remain the same. While he has put on muscle he's still getting pushed around far too easily.


Last edited by cheswick: 01-28-2013 at 01:07 PM.
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01-28-2013, 01:05 PM
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Canes ended up with Ryan Murphy, pretty darn good I'd say...
Yeah, his development curve has really shot upwards compared to Scheifele's.

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01-28-2013, 01:05 PM
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garret:

Don't you get tired by answering stupid and misinformed statements with prolonged proving posts?

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01-28-2013, 01:09 PM
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All of them certianly did not.

He was ranked
16th North American Skater by Central Scouting.
18th by International scouting services
41st by the hockey news
and 12th by Bob MacKenzie (which is an amalgomation of 10 scouts)

TSN's Analysis at the time:
Strengths - Good head and hands, puck competitive, sees the ice well, nifty stickhandler, hard shot and quick release, excellent playmaker.
Weaknesses - has to add some muscle and improve his quickness, lacks power and needs to lengthen stride, not a bruiser. Needs to learn to bring his 'A' game every night.
NHL Upside - A bit raw, but if his skating comes along has the potential to be a productive center who is responsible at both ends of the ice.

I think his weaknesses listed back then remain the same. While he has put on muscle he's still getting pushed around far too easily.
either way, there was a snowballs cahnce in hell he made it to 37, not to mention the mid 60's where we actually would have been picking.

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01-28-2013, 01:22 PM
  #370
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either way, there was a snowballs cahnce in hell he made it to 37, not to mention the mid 60's where we actually would have been picking.
No doubt. If Scheifligh was their guy that's where they would have had to pick him. IIRC Chevy said he looked into moving down a few spots cause he figured he would still be available but there were no takers, so they just picked him at 7.

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01-28-2013, 01:35 PM
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Okay, the horse has been beaten, over, and over, and over, and... well you get the idea.

Couturier was a better pick, hindsight is 20/20, but its overwith, we are stuck with Scheifele until the team decides to trade him or he signs elsewhere (after his first contract that is).

As for his current progress.... Well I'm not impressed with him just as of yet, I think he needs another season in Barrie learning from Hawerchuk who did improve him from last season.

Reason?

- He gets bumped off the puck far to easily
- His faceoff skills are "okay" but not great
- He registered 1 point in 7 games with the Jets last year, he was sent down
- He hasn't registered any points this year in 3 games and hasn't stood out. James Wright (his replacement) looks better than he does (personal opinion).
- He hasn't stood out, for someone trying to earn a spot in the big league he should be proving his worth.

Maybe he will eventually blossom but now, he just isn't quite there yet. Though he could also just be another mediocre player who doesn't pan out for the big league and ends up with the AHL club, which isn't bad either as our AHL team needs depth as well. If the Jets want to pursue a cup in a few years we don't need anymore mediocre players, we've got enough of them.

I am actually more intrigued by Ivan Telegin, can't wait to see that kid throw on a Jets jersey, see what he's worth. Or Trouba, who is one hell of a good defensemen (our struggling point).

Again, these are my opinions and I am entitled to them, you may not all agree with me but lots do.

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01-28-2013, 01:41 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
I am actually more intrigued by Ivan Telegin, can't wait to see that kid throw on a Jets jersey, see what he's worth. Or Trouba, who is one hell of a good defensemen (our struggling point).

Again, these are my opinions and I am entitled to them, you may not all agree with me but lots do.
But you are aware of Telegins rather quiet and a little bit disappointing (IMO) season he's having?

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01-28-2013, 02:34 PM
  #373
tntkid
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Just because the truth hurts does not mean that it is stupid or misinformed.

Hardcore Jets fans judging Schefflie are almost like parents judging their own children.
They can do no wrong & they always have the potential to be the next Crosby.

Take the blinders off.



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Originally Posted by GermanJetsFan View Post
garret:

Don't you get tired by answering stupid and misinformed statements with prolonged proving posts?

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01-28-2013, 02:36 PM
  #374
tacogeoff
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Yes!!! The Schief draft debate again!!!!

Quick call the Professor and get M. J. Fox to fire up the DeLorean and take Chevy back in time to change the past .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........


As Grind Said hindsight is 20/20

Couts would of been the better pick at the moment... but it is what it is and we can only wait and see how it all pans out.

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Old
01-28-2013, 02:39 PM
  #375
truck
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Originally Posted by Ziggy66 View Post
Yes!!! The Schief draft debate again!!!!

Quick call the Professor and get M. J. Fox to fire up the Deloriane and take Chevy back in time to change the past .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........


As Grind Said hindsight is 20/20

Couts would of been the better pick at the moment but it is what it is and we can only wait and see how it all pans out.
"hindsight is 20/20" doesn't really apply because this discussion was based on pre-draft talk.

We don't have result on which to apply hindsight.

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