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Might want to WATCH some games instead of spewing a bunch of garbage because it's CLEARLY obvious that you haven't watched him AT ALL.
And by the way, if you want to sound SMART, you might not want to use terms like "plays like a 3rd rounder" because guys like JAMIE BENN, drafted in the FIFTH ROUND get pissed off when you do that.
man you love emphasis
and why would you pick out an exception for my 3rd rounder example? yeah i can namedrop datsyuk and lundqvist for being picked in later rounds but its very common most players picked past the 3rd round don't see the NHL except for some injury stints
and if it was so obvious then EJ would be a star and used as an example for a top defensemen on these boards, but guess what, he never is. i'm glad he's playing well a couple games into the season but that doesn't change the fact that his draft team gave up on him and he has been pretty mediocre his entire career.
they're just facts, and well known ones too. you can argue potential all you want but until it happens (which it should of by now) then you can stop pretending he's one of the best Dmen in the league
they're just facts, and well known ones too. you can argue potential all you want but until it happens (which it should of by now) then you can stop pretending he's one of the best Dmen in the league
Not even going to talk about the rest, but this right here shows how little you know.
Look at Chris Pronger and Zdeno Chara there first few years in the league. If you think EJ has had a poor start to the year, go look at those guys.
Dmen take longer to develop, they ususally don't enter there primes until 27-28. Add the fact that EJ has missed a full year to injuries and I think its safe to say EJ will still develop quite a bit before he enters his prime.
His play since December of last year has been easily #1 Dman level, only thing lacking is point production, and that will come when EJ gets a D partner he can work well with who isn't useless.
and why would you pick out an exception for my 3rd rounder example? yeah i can namedrop datsyuk and lundqvist for being picked in later rounds but its very common most players picked past the 3rd round don't see the NHL except for some injury stints
and if it was so obvious then EJ would be a star and used as an example for a top defensemen on these boards, but guess what, he never is. i'm glad he's playing well a couple games into the season but that doesn't change the fact that his draft team gave up on him and he has been pretty mediocre his entire career.
they're just facts, and well known ones too. you can argue potential all you want but until it happens (which it should of by now) then you can stop pretending he's one of the best Dmen in the league
Uh-huh. He was ESPECIALLY mediocre when he played in the 2010 Olympics.
I'm done arguing with you because you DON'T watch him play and you form your opinion by what people think on HFBoards instead of WATCHING hockey and forming your own opinions.
Yeah, he's #20 league-wide. (last summer) So now that I've used your own argument against you, does it still work or do you now want to change what you said?
(you are right about one thing, I DO love emphasis)
Not even going to talk about the rest, but this right here shows how little you know.
Look at Chris Pronger and Zdeno Chara there first few years in the league. If you think EJ has had a poor start to the year, go look at those guys.
Dmen take longer to develop, they ususally don't enter there primes until 27-28. Add the fact that EJ has missed a full year to injuries and I think its safe to say EJ will still develop quite a bit before he enters his prime.
His play since December of last year has been easily #1 Dman level, only thing lacking is point production, and that will come when EJ gets a D partner he can work well with who isn't useless.
Zdeno Chara is an anomaly, there has been no one like him in NHL history. Literally going from an enforcer even from his junior days to an All-Star player.
Chris Pronger is probably a closer estimation. However even Pronger played at a higher level as he was a 30 minute defenseman in his early 20's. He was critiqued for his bad play in the playoffs early in his career. He didn't struggle as a player, he was still a #1 defenseman early on in his career, but very undisciplined and took timely penalties.
Erik Johnson doesn't seem to be on the same path. He's still developing it seems and will probably be a #1 guy for years to come, but I don't think he'll ever be in contention for a Norris like those two were throughout their careers.
Most star talent defenseman show a lot early in their careers.
and why would you pick out an exception for my 3rd rounder example? yeah i can namedrop datsyuk and lundqvist for being picked in later rounds but its very common most players picked past the 3rd round don't see the NHL except for some injury stints
and if it was so obvious then EJ would be a star and used as an example for a top defensemen on these boards, but guess what, he never is. i'm glad he's playing well a couple games into the season but that doesn't change the fact that his draft team gave up on him and he has been pretty mediocre his entire career.
That team drafted Pie (was ahead of EJ on the learning curve) and needed scoring help. Plus they got Shattenkirk. That trade is a very good example of trading from a stregnth to fill a weakness. It worked out for the Blues and looks to have worked out for the Aves.
Zdeno Chara is an anomaly, there has been no one like him in NHL history. Literally going from an enforcer even from his junior days to an All-Star player.
Chris Pronger is probably a closer estimation. However even Pronger played at a higher level as he was a 30 minute defenseman in his early 20's. He was critiqued for his bad play in the playoffs early in his career. He didn't struggle as a player, he was still a #1 defenseman early on in his career, but very undisciplined and took timely penalties.
Erik Johnson doesn't seem to be on the same path. He's still developing it seems and will probably be a #1 guy for years to come, but I don't think he'll ever be in contention for a Norris like those two were throughout their careers.
Most star talent defenseman show a lot early in their careers.
The examples were simply stated to show that D-men generally take longer and not to illustrate the EJ will turn into Pronger or Chara.
You say he will probably be a #1 guy for years to come and I think that's what most Avs fans are saying as well. I think there is a pretty big stretch between being called a #1 d-man and a 'mid-pairing guy that plays like a 3rd rounder' and that's where we take exception.
The examples were simply stated to show that D-men generally take longer and not to illustrate the EJ will turn into Pronger or Chara.
You say he will probably be a #1 guy for years to come and I think that's what most Avs fans are saying as well. I think there is a pretty big stretch between being called a #1 d-man and a 'mid-pairing guy that plays like a 3rd rounder' and that's where we take exception.
i agree with the guy you're quoting, but you seem to take offense to and not agree that EJ has been mediocre his entire career. i said he has played like an average defensemen and not like the star ones you're comparing them to. people like to say dmen take longer to develop, and sure that's debatable but the fact is that if you're a star you stand out regardless of your struggles like doughty, petranglio, karlsson, etc.
so EJ may get better in the future, but if you're telling me he's on the same level as those previous guys then you're just straight up delusional
i agree with the guy you're quoting, but you seem to take offense to and not agree that EJ has been mediocre his entire career. i said he has played like an average defensemen and not like the star ones you're comparing them to. people like to say dmen take longer to develop, and sure that's debatable but the fact is that if you're a star you stand out regardless of your struggles like doughty, petranglio, karlsson, etc.
so EJ may get better in the future, but if you're telling me he's on the same level as those previous guys then you're just straight up delusional
There is a HUGE gap between Doughty, Pietrangelo or Karlsson and being a 2nd pairing dman.
That's what you said Erik Johnson is and this statement indicates that you've got NO idea about the way Erik Johnson's playing.
In his whole time on the Avs he hasn't had the opportunity of playing with a solid dman on his pairing.
Right now he's paired up with Ryan Wilson, a #4 dman at best and still he gets the job done, looking like a real #1.
Obviously, there still are aspects of his game he needs lots of work on, especially his offense but the last 40-50 games he's looked great with the Avs.
The examples were simply stated to show that D-men generally take longer and not to illustrate the EJ will turn into Pronger or Chara.
You say he will probably be a #1 guy for years to come and I think that's what most Avs fans are saying as well. I think there is a pretty big stretch between being called a #1 d-man and a 'mid-pairing guy that plays like a 3rd rounder' and that's where we take exception.
Eaxactly. I mean I still think its too early to completely knock EJ out of the Norris possibilities in 5 or 6 years, but its certainly not expected by most if not all Avs fans.
I expect him to be a #1 Dman in his Prime, somewhere in the Top 15 Dmen during his peak.
i agree with the guy you're quoting, but you seem to take offense to and not agree that EJ has been mediocre his entire career. i said he has played like an average defensemen and not like the star ones you're comparing them to. people like to say dmen take longer to develop, and sure that's debatable but the fact is that if you're a star you stand out regardless of your struggles like doughty, petranglio, karlsson, etc.
so EJ may get better in the future, but if you're telling me he's on the same level as those previous guys then you're just straight up delusional
And WHO exactly is saying that ANYWHERE in this ****ing thread?
NO ONE. Nobody said this and no one even suggested anything like that at all.
The only thing Avs fans said was that they wouldn't want to trade him and that they are happy with the trade to St-Louis.
If you think Claude Giroux is better than Crosby, you're so ****ing stupid it's not even funny!!! <- how do you like it??
I really think you should change your tag line to "Finally, I'm not really that smart after all".
And WHO exactly is saying that ANYWHERE in this ****ing thread?
NO ONE. Nobody said this and no one even suggested anything like that at all.
The only thing Avs fans said was that they wouldn't want to trade him and that they are happy with the trade to St-Louis.
If you think Claude Giroux is better than Crosby, you're so ****ing stupid it's not even funny!!! <- how do you like it??
I really think you should change your tag line to "Finally, I'm not really that smart after all".
lmao why are you freaking out?
the point of this thread is value, and im saying that his value is not that of a true #1 defensemen, because on any other team he wouldn't be that.
and avs fans are saying he means a lot to them (untouchable) because he's the best on THEIR team, notice it's relative. you're using giroux which is arguably a top 3 player in the league, so he would be a #1 center on almost any team. so you keep serving up pretty embarrassing examples.
i know you really wanna reply to me to get the last word and that's cool and all but can it not just be 300 bad comparisons and 30 starred out words with 40 emoticons. take your time and be mature.
the point of this thread is value, and im saying that his value is not that of a true #1 defensemen, because on any other team he wouldn't be that.
Edmonton, Tampa, Anaheim, Dallas, Columbus, Detroit, Calgary, Carolina, NYI... ignoring more borderline teams. But no, no other teams he'd be number one.
the point of this thread is value, and im saying that his value is not that of a true #1 defensemen, because on any other team he wouldn't be that.
and avs fans are saying he means a lot to them (untouchable) because he's the best on THEIR team, notice it's relative. you're using giroux which is arguably a top 3 player in the league, so he would be a #1 center on almost any team. so you keep serving up pretty embarrassing examples.
i know you really wanna reply to me to get the last word and that's cool and all but can it not just be 300 bad comparisons and 30 starred out words with 40 emoticons. take your time and be mature.
Erik Johnson and Dion Phaneuf are both in the same boat. Both are borderline top-pairing d-man asked to play the role of a #1 d-man to their respective teams when the fact is clear that they both aren't.
I think Avs should definitely keep him because he is well worth his contract as opposed to Phaneuf who is overpaid.
the point of this thread is value, and im saying that his value is not that of a true #1 defensemen, because on any other team he wouldn't be that.
and avs fans are saying he means a lot to them (untouchable) because he's the best on THEIR team, notice it's relative. you're using giroux which is arguably a top 3 player in the league, so he would be a #1 center on almost any team. so you keep serving up pretty embarrassing examples.
i know you really wanna reply to me to get the last word and that's cool and all but can it not just be 300 bad comparisons and 30 starred out words with 40 emoticons. take your time and be mature.
lol again, point missed.
I used the Giroux thing as an example of SOMETHING THAT YOU NEVER SAID!!!! Just like NO ONE compared EJ to all the guys you somehow IMAGINED that we compared him to.
EJ's good. Looks to be working out for both teams...
and just to weigh on the "OMG YOUR OPINION IS DIFFERENT THAN MINE" battle, i'd agree that EJ has been pretty underwhelming for a #1 overall pick. Don't know that i'd say his play is that of a 3rd rounder... maybe more of a mid-late 1st in a good draft, and i don't know that he's at all a legit #1 defenseman, but he's clearly the best av.'s defenseman, and with them being a young team, he does have room to get better. He's played pretty well to start this season so we'll see. then again, Luke Schenn has been by far our best defenseman, but according to everyone else he's a 'pylon'...
i guess you could say that EJ would fetch a good amount on the market with the demand for D, but he's probably worth more to Colorado at this point than he'd likely fetch them in a trade.
As a long time Blues fan, I completely understand where Av's fans are coming from regarding EJ. We(Blues fans) had to listen to years of other teams fans say how bad of a miss EJ was as a #1 pick, while completely disregarding the overwhelming draft day opinions of professional scouts. There was a substantial consensus that EJ was the best player in that draft, hindsight is always 20/20, and there are obviously better choices(Toews, Backstrom, Giroux etc...) but thats just the way it goes, teams make their best educated guess and hope it works out. I know all about the excuses, Dmen take longer to develop, he lost a season because of a drunken golf cart accident, blah, blah, blah. He unfortunately just didn't live up to expectation and for the Blues and EJ it didn't work out. The Blues decided to make a move that made them a better team. Now the AV's have a good top pairing dman to build around. Is he where most thought he would be by now? No, and if you think he is, then reason and logic has passed some by. But he's still a solid #1, and he could still become an all star quality player, I just don't think he will become an elite player, i.e.- top 10 at his position. He will likely be in the 15-20 range for the remainder of his career, which I have to imagine, most teams would be tickled ****less.
My advice to AV's fans, just be happy he is on your team, know he is a good/great player and who cares what others say, if your happy, then others opinions should hold less clout. Home team fans get to see his considerable physical tools and EJ always leaves you wanting more. As said by many Blues fans," if he could only just put it all together, then watch out". Just know that if he ever does, the AV's get to reap all of the benefits.
As a long time Blues fan, I completely understand where Av's fans are coming from regarding EJ. We(Blues fans) had to listen to years of other teams fans say how bad of a miss EJ was as a #1 pick, while completely disregarding the overwhelming draft day opinions of professional scouts. There was a substantial consensus that EJ was the best player in that draft, hindsight is always 20/20, and there are obviously better choices(Toews, Backstrom, Giroux etc...) but thats just the way it goes, teams make their best educated guess and hope it works out. I know all about the excuses, Dmen take longer to develop, he lost a season because of a drunken golf cart accident, blah, blah, blah. He unfortunately just didn't live up to expectation and for the Blues and EJ it didn't work out. The Blues decided to make a move that made them a better team. Now the AV's have a good top pairing dman to build around. Is he where most thought he would be by now? No, and if you think he is, then reason and logic has passed some by. But he's still a solid #1, and he could still become an all star quality player, I just don't think he will become an elite player, i.e.- top 10 at his position. He will likely be in the 15-20 range for the remainder of his career, which I have to imagine, most teams would be tickled ****less.
My advice to AV's fans, just be happy he is on your team, know he is a good/great player and who cares what others say, if your happy, then others opinions should hold less clout. Home team fans get to see his considerable physical tools and EJ always leaves you wanting more. As said by many Blues fans," if he could only just put it all together, then watch out". Just know that if he ever does, the AV's get to reap all of the benefits.
This. This is an example if a well though out, educated post. The only thing I disagree with however, is that I think EJ Johnson will be a top 10 Dman in the league. He will be a lot closer to the 10 spot then the 1.
Well Colorado has zero intention of moving their best d-man. Also, this was a win-win trade.
ASSUMING Erik Johnson was actually expendable, I doubt many teams, if any, would give up a 22 year old top 6 power forward, a 22 year old 2nd pairing d-man with 1st pairing potential, and a 2nd round pick for EJ, a 3rd/4th line center, and a 1st round pick.
Honestly I wouldn't move Shattenkirk straight up for Johnson. EJ, I guess, has more potential but Shattenkirk is already a very good d-man that has put up 43 points in each of his first two years and plays in all situations. He is smarter than Johnson, better offensively, and his all-around game has grown leaps and bounds in the 2 years since the trade.
People love to talk about Johnson's potential but at some point you have to wonder if he'll ever reach it.
The comparison Blues fans loved was Chris Pronger. Well in Pronger's fourth season removed from the 1993 draft(age 22), he put up 35 points, was a +14, and was playing big minutes for the Blues. He was then a +47 with 36 points in his fifth season while averaging 27 minutes a night.
Last year was Erik Johnson's sixth season removed from the draft. Yeah one was ruined due to his knee injury but many will tell you the rehab process builds muscle very well and you can still learn a lot just watching the game. He was still able to mature in that year. In his sixth year, he put up 26 points, was a -7, and averaged less than 21 minutes a night.
Johnson is still way behind Pronger at age 24 and at 303 games played.
The comparison I'd hope for now is Jack Johnson who turned a corner when becoming the go-to guy in Columbus. He has been outstanding for the Blue Jackets after an up and down career in LA til age 25.
