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Jason Arnott fails physical; Deal with NYR off

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Old
01-28-2013, 03:26 PM
  #476
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The Rangers need to start getting more out of their drafts. They got DZ and Stepan in 2008. We thought Grachev would have been a player. He fell off the map. Kundratek was traded to the Caps. He is on their 3rd pair playing 10-12 minutes a game. Kreider in 2009. Werek was traded to Phoenix for Lindberg. Will Bourque make it? Not likely. Lindberg is having a really good year in Sweden. Can he be a player for the Rangers next year? Not expecting him to be a major point producer. A bottom 6 forward. Horak was traded in the Erixon trade. McIlrath would fill a major need on this team. Right handed. Tough. Miller. Skjei. The 1st rounders aren't the issue. You don't expect them to hit on all of the 2nd or 3rd round picks but they need to hit on some of them. Can Thomas become a player? He is small player. Yogan was a 4th. They traded their 3rd in 10 for Boyle. Can Fast be a player? He has suffered more than a few injuries in the last year. Fast came in the Carolina trade for Sanguinetti along with a 2nd. They traded their 2nd and Caps 2nd(Sanguinetti trade.Canes acquired pick for Corvo) plus Horak for Erixon. Fogarty has 4 goals for Notre Dame and he spent most of the year of the 4th line. Fogarty was the pick acquired in the Grachev trade. MSC. McColgan is not signed. Boo Nieves has had a good freshman year on a surprisingly bad Michigan team.

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01-28-2013, 03:26 PM
  #477
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Wait, wait, wait....Subban would be our #1? Have you watched the kid play? Sorry but a #1 defenseman is someone who provides a solid all around game, and if there is any attribute that can be neglected while being a #1 defenseman it is the offensive side of the game. Subban is far from a solid defensive defenseman. He can throw the big hits but that doesn't make him a #1. Sorry, no dice. He has been undisciplined and taken himself out of position. I have watched him a lot in his first full year being up at school in Boston. He can be a horror show in his own end at times. Watch the kid play before you make statements like that. He only put up 30+ points the last two years. He has logged at least a 100+ penalty minutes in the last two seasons. He is 23 years old not some 18 year old blue chip prospect.

I'm not saying we couldn't use a tough rugged defenseman to intimidate guys but Subban is not a #1 defenseman so we should not in any sensible way be paying for him both in assets and in money.

And last time I checked we made it to game 6 of the ECF with the same defense as last year.
I agree with the bolded, although many people might not. Look no further than people like Mike Green winning the Norris trophy.

Anyway, I've always thought that the #1 priority for a defenseman was, ya know, playing defense. Offensive upside is gravy on top.

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01-28-2013, 03:31 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
I don't think Subban is that great in front his own net, at least not better than who the Rangers currently have, but maybe I'm wrong.

He's a great skater with a good shot, defensively responsible and will look to make the big hit. He's a very good overall package but the price to get him wouldn't make it worthwhile. edit: in response to the above, I agree he can take himself out of position for a hit but he's pretty good defensively overall when he focuses on it. He got tons of hard minutes in the past year and did well all things considered on a team that was lacking in many areas around him.

And I think the Habs front office is the ones who don't have their heads on straight. While it is kind of dumb for Subban to be holding out at this point, it's also dumb for the Habs to be holding to a 2 year deal for approximately what Del Zotto makes...Subban is a better player than Del Zotto right now and it's fairly agreed upon that Del Zotto's contract is very favorable to the Rangers.
I'm not sure I agree with the last paragraph Levitate. Normally I do agree with your thinking but not this time. I don;t think the Habs front office is far off on their stance. Del Zotto scored more than Subban last year. MDZ is a year younger and takes a ton less penalties then Subban. Regardless of the potential between the two, the Habs are looking at the ink on the paper. And quite frankly, I am too. Subban took over 100 in PIM. He is not Chris Pronger. He is not that size. It is irresponsible. It makes a bad montreal team even worse when he is not on the ice because yes he does have potential. The rangers don't have time for growing pains with a 23 year old who can't stay out of the box.

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01-28-2013, 03:31 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I agree with the bolded, although many people might not. Look no further than people like Mike Green winning the Norris trophy.

Anyway, I've always thought that the #1 priority for a defenseman was, ya know, playing defense. Offensive upside is gravy on top.
Or Erik Karlsson for that matter.

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01-28-2013, 03:31 PM
  #480
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Katie Strang

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Jerry (Charlotte, NC)

Any word on why Arnott failed his physical?

Katie Strang (3:26 PM)

Multiple concerns, including his knee, which was operated on this summer
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Bob (NY)

With Arnott out of the picture, have you heard the Rangers looking at any other veteran FA forwards out there? Like Sykora or Moore?

Katie Strang (3:28 PM)

Not sure on Sykora but I think the team could potentially be interested in Moore. That's a sensitive situation, however, considering the tragic passing of his wife recently.No one could blame him if he decided not to play this season.
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/46909

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01-28-2013, 03:32 PM
  #481
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The Rangers need to start getting more out of their drafts. They got DZ and Stepan in 2008. We thought Grachev would have been a player. He fell off the map. Kundratek was traded to the Caps. He is on their 3rd pair playing 10-12 minutes a game. Kreider in 2009. Werek was traded to Phoenix for Lindberg. Will Bourque make it? Not likely. Lindberg is having a really good year in Sweden. Can be a player for the Rangers next year? Not expecting him to be a major point producer. A bottom 6 forward. Horak was traded in the Erixon trade. McIlrath would fill a major need on this team. Right handed. Tough. Miller. Skjei. The 1st rounders aren't the issue. You don't expect them to hit on all of the 2nd or 3rd round picks but they need to hit on some of them. Can Thomas become a player? He is small player. Yogan was a 4th. They traded their 3rd in 10 for Boyle. Can Fast be a player? He has suffered more than a few injuries in the last year. Fast came in the Carolina trade for Sanguinetti along with a 2nd. They traded their 2nd and Caps 2nd(Sanguinetti trade.Canes acquired pick for Corvo) plus Horak for Erixon. Fogarty has 4 goals for Notre Dame and he spent most of the year of the 4th line. Fogarty was the pick acquired in the Grachev trade. MSC. McColgan is not signed. Boo Nieves has had a good freshman year on a surprisingly bad Michigan team.
I agree with you. They need some of these lesser known prospects to take off. Although I don't think they have done all that badly.

Miller
McIlrath
Skjei
Kreider

Lindberg
Fast
Thomas
Noreau
St Croix
Nieves

Andersson
Fogarty
McColgan
Bourque

But they seem to be having some luck with undrafted free agents:

Marchessault was a great find, he just decided not to stay
Jean looks like a good pick-up as a depth guy
Hrivik
Talbot seems to be coming into his own now

Turned Grant (who was undrafted) in Mashinter who looks to possibly have a small NHL updside

Kolarik who Byers was dealt for brought back Ferriero who has a NHL game with the Rangers already

Weise was lost in waivers.

The Rangers really need to stress the undrafted free agent pool in the next couple of years. They are going to have open contracts and spots on the lower lines available and they will be a good team. Should be an easy sell. Myles Bell? Andrej Sustr?

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01-28-2013, 03:32 PM
  #482
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Subban is a better player than Del Zotto right now
If he is, it's just marginally. Del Zotto had higher even strength and powerplay scoring rates last season. Neither are great defensively.

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01-28-2013, 03:34 PM
  #483
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Should have kept Prust? Sure. Not for 2.5M for 4 years though.

And Arnott was not a step in the right direction as far as completing a shut-down line. He's not a better defensive forward than Boyle. He's not as good as Boyle is on faceoffs either.
May be Boyle will get better, but at the moment our bottom 6 are between bad and useless. The games are carried out by top 6. When bottom 6 are out there it makes everone nervous. The weakness at C is obvious there (and it has nothing to do with faceoffs). If situation continues we will run top 6 to the ground and people will change thier Fantasy Teams soon.

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01-28-2013, 03:34 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The Rangers need to start getting more out of their drafts. They got DZ and Stepan in 2008. We thought Grachev would have been a player. He fell off the map. Kundratek was traded to the Caps. He is on their 3rd pair playing 10-12 minutes a game. Kreider in 2009. Werek was traded to Phoenix for Lindberg. Will Bourque make it? Not likely. Lindberg is having a really good year in Sweden. Can he be a player for the Rangers next year? Not expecting him to be a major point producer. A bottom 6 forward. Horak was traded in the Erixon trade. McIlrath would fill a major need on this team. Right handed. Tough. Miller. Skjei. The 1st rounders aren't the issue. You don't expect them to hit on all of the 2nd or 3rd round picks but they need to hit on some of them. Can Thomas become a player? He is small player. Yogan was a 4th. They traded their 3rd in 10 for Boyle. Can Fast be a player? He has suffered more than a few injuries in the last year. Fast came in the Carolina trade for Sanguinetti along with a 2nd. They traded their 2nd and Caps 2nd(Sanguinetti trade.Canes acquired pick for Corvo) plus Horak for Erixon. Fogarty has 4 goals for Notre Dame and he spent most of the year of the 4th line. Fogarty was the pick acquired in the Grachev trade. MSC. McColgan is not signed. Boo Nieves has had a good freshman year on a surprisingly bad Michigan team.
I think Miller, Lindberg, and McIlrath are not far off. The rest imo, are up in the air. Nieves and Fogarty won't be here for at least 3 years imo. We'll see how Skjei progresses and if Fast can stay healthy. We'll see how MSC's game transitions to the Pro level. Yogan hasn't progressed while also battling injuries. McColgan is also up in the air. Bourque's game has not transitioned.

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01-28-2013, 03:42 PM
  #485
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I don't think Subban is that great in front his own net, at least not better than who the Rangers currently have, but maybe I'm wrong.

He's a great skater with a good shot, defensively responsible and will look to make the big hit. He's a very good overall package but the price to get him wouldn't make it worthwhile. edit: in response to the above, I agree he can take himself out of position for a hit but he's pretty good defensively overall when he focuses on it. He got tons of hard minutes in the past year and did well all things considered on a team that was lacking in many areas around him.

And I think the Habs front office is the ones who don't have their heads on straight. While it is kind of dumb for Subban to be holding out at this point, it's also dumb for the Habs to be holding to a 2 year deal for approximately what Del Zotto makes...Subban is a better player than Del Zotto right now and it's fairly agreed upon that Del Zotto's contract is very favorable to the Rangers.
I don't think the gap is as big as most people make it out to be. They're just different players. Subban has the better highlight reel, but Del Zotto is much better defensively at this point. Ironically, I think they'd compliment each other extremely well on the power play. Subban is a little more Bryan McCabe, and Del Zotto is a little more Thomas Kaberle. Great players, just different.

..and yes, McCabe was a very good player for a long stretch of his career.


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01-28-2013, 03:51 PM
  #486
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Nevermind the assets and money it would take, which is insane to begin with.

But while Subban's talent is undeniable, he also doesnt have his head on straight. Call it immaturity, call it what you will, but its a problem. And it wouldnt fly with Torts and the environment hes tried to create here. And no amount of "BIG HITZ!!!" is going to change that.
Agree but I believe once he gets out of Montreal(hypothetically?), he would be just fine!

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01-28-2013, 03:53 PM
  #487
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If he is, it's just marginally. Del Zotto had higher even strength and powerplay scoring rates last season. Neither are great defensively.
Stop! Del Zotto isn't in the same stratosphere as Subban; there is nothing about their respective games that Subban isn't much better at.

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01-28-2013, 03:55 PM
  #488
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I blame Youtube.
Exactly. And I blame EASports.

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01-28-2013, 03:57 PM
  #489
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The Rangers need to start getting more out of their drafts.

We have been getting plenty of quantity (see this), the problem has always been quality. Look at Nash. To get him, we needed to trade Dubinsky, Anisimov, Horak, #1, #2, #2 (including the Erixon trade). That's 3 players and 3 high picks.

Sure, nobody wants an undersized player. It's just easier to pretend that a 6-3 225 pounder (whom we've never seen) has skill than to pretend that a 5-11 170 pounder has size. Height/weight can be gauged from the stat sheet, but skill cannot. And if need be, we can pretend that getting a point per game in high school or some second-rate junior league like (e.g., BCHL) is proof of skill. [See: Fogarty, Steven.]


When 90% of the big guys drafted around #20 or below wind up as 4th liners or AHLers (or ECHLers), we quickly forget about it, and whine about why we didn't draft Claude Giroux. But who wanted this undersized kid who was only 5-10 165 pounds in his draft year?

Who wanted to use a second rounder to draft Ray Whitney, Derek Roy, Brian Gionta and Michael Cammalleri, who're all averaging 65 points per 80 games?

We prefer to pretend that we can draft someone at #25 who is an all-around great player, but if someone is an all-around great player, he'll go in the top-3.

A large majority of those who became star scorers in the NHL after not being drafted in the top-10 were either injured, extremely raw or most likely undersized. Why do you think Marc Savard ("He can score in the OHL at will" - his Oshawa coach prior to his draft), Mark Recchi, Martin St. Louis and so many others fell so far down into the late rounds?


If you draft for skill, you won't get a ton of players, but you'll stumble upon enough Girouxs, Cammalleri and Savards to make it worthwhile.

If you draft safely and go for a nice player like Skjei and Miller, then be happy with a large quantity, where we'll occasionally have to move 6 assets (NHL players and high picks) for one star. That is, after all, our strategy.

But to expect to get Giroux when you are drafting J.T. Miller is not realistic. It's one strategy or the other.


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01-28-2013, 03:57 PM
  #490
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Stop! Del Zotto isn't in the same stratosphere as Subban; there is nothing about their respective games that Subban isn't much better at.
Except staying out of the penalty box?

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01-28-2013, 03:58 PM
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Stop! Del Zotto isn't in the same stratosphere as Subban; there is nothing about their respective games that Subban isn't much better at.
He is much more skilled than Del Zotto, I agree. What he uses that skillset to accomplish is remarkably little considering.

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01-28-2013, 04:33 PM
  #492
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Subban is on the brink of becoming a superstar player. He is already a #1 defenseman that excels in all situations, he's proven to be a big time player in the playoffs and anchors his team's defense. He would absolutely challenge McDonagh as the #1 defenseman on this team. He just brings an element to this team that they've never really had.
He has an attitude a mile long. He wouldn't get along with Torts, won't fit under the cap long term & will most likely start breaking down sooner than later.

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01-28-2013, 04:36 PM
  #493
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All this talk about Subban is pointless when we have a guy like McIlrath close to making the jump to the NHL. That dude will help this team a lot down the road.

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01-28-2013, 04:45 PM
  #494
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Sykora shouldn't be considered. He's a winger who may or may not help with our 2nd line scoring. He'd take away minutes from someone else to do that though, probably a mistake. Same with Dvorak. He doesn't help with the face-offs.

We need a 3rd line center. Someone who can win a lot of face-offs. Boyle would be perfect on the 4th line and would balance out all 4 lines distributing time more evenly.

I get that y'all want depth but we have 3rd line depth if need be. Kreider and Hrivik will undoubtedly be the two main depth pieces. If Miller develops quickly he'll be in consideration. Maybe even someone like Jesper Fast or Oscar Lindberg could be considered depending on how willing they are to come to North America this year. We have enough wing possibilities in house. We need a dominant center. That should be the goal. Not kicking the tires on wingers.

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01-28-2013, 04:47 PM
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Subban's problems are between his ears. He comes off as better than everybody, and is not well liked throughout the league because of his attitude. He's very talented and all 29 other teams would want him, but very immature. Torts would chew him out in a second.
Also, he's not the most liked guy in the dressing room, especially with some veterans on the team, that didn't like the fact that he missed/was late for team meetings during the playoffs a few years ago.
Finally, the new mgmt team has offered him a two yr deal or bridge contract (similar to their other cornerstone players Price/Pacioretty) of $2.2Mn and $2.9Mn, and will not move from that apparently.

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01-28-2013, 04:48 PM
  #496
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McIlrath isn't "close to making the jump"

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01-28-2013, 04:49 PM
  #497
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We have been getting plenty of quantity (see this), the problem has always been quality. Look at Nash. To get him, we needed to trade Dubinsky, Anisimov, Horak, #1, #2, #2 (including the Erixon trade). That's 3 players and 3 high picks.

Sure, nobody wants an undersized player. It's just easier to pretend that a 6-3 225 pounder (whom we've never seen) has skill than to pretend that a 5-11 170 pounder has size. Height/weight can be gauged from the stat sheet, but skill cannot. And if need be, we can pretend that getting a point per game in high school or some second-rate junior league like (e.g., BCHL) is proof of skill. [See: Fogarty, Steven.]


When 90% of the big guys drafted around #20 or below wind up as 4th liners or AHLers (or ECHLers), we quickly forget about it, and whine about why we didn't draft Claude Giroux. But who wanted this undersized kid who was only 5-10 165 pounds in his draft year?

Who wanted to use a second rounder to draft Ray Whitney, Derek Roy, Brian Gionta and Michael Cammalleri, who're all averaging 65 points per 80 games?

We prefer to pretend that we can draft someone at #25 who is an all-around great player, but if someone is an all-around great player, he'll go in the top-3.

A large majority of those who became star scorers in the NHL after not being drafted in the top-10 were either injured, extremely raw or most likely undersized. Why do you think Marc Savard ("He can score in the OHL at will" - his Oshawa coach prior to his draft), Mark Recchi, Martin St. Louis and so many others fell so far down into the late rounds?


If you draft for skill, you won't get a ton of players, but you'll stumble upon enough Girouxs, Cammalleri and Savards to make it worthwhile.

If you draft safely and go for a nice player like Skjei and Miller, then be happy with a large quantity, where we'll occasionally have to move 6 assets (NHL players and high picks) for one star. That is, after all, our strategy.

But to expect to get Giroux when you are drafting J.T. Miller is not realistic. It's one strategy or the other.
This is pretty much it. The Rangers look to fill out lines 2-4 and their defense through the draft. They are able to do that by catching players who fall and drafting players with good attitudes and solid all-around skill-sets. Are most of them "sexy" picks? No. But they sure seem to get the job done at the NHL level.

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01-28-2013, 04:51 PM
  #498
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Subban is a more valuable player than MDZ... but that doesn't mean that we should pay a kings ransom for him or give him the rumored 5 million per deal that he wants...

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01-28-2013, 04:52 PM
  #499
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McIlrath isn't "close to making the jump"
Nor does he have the complete skill set of Subban.

I really think, in the end, we drafted a 3rd pair defenseman who can fight with the #10 pick overall.

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01-28-2013, 04:53 PM
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Not a big fan of Subban. He's got a bomb shot and is gritty but he doesn't seem like a good fit personality wise with the identity this team is trying to create.

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