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01-28-2013, 02:51 PM
  #551
Stephen
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
But if we can have a player in the organization from age 18 to age 23 when he starts playing for the Leafs that player will be comfortable with the system we play, the coaches will know his strengths and weakness a lot better then if he was picked up from free agency. And hopefully he will have formed a bound with the other drafted players who he by then know really well even if they have not played together. I think a strong team spirit with a good system beats any team based on individual skills quickly assembled through trades and free agency.
In the grand scheme of things, one Jesse Blacker doesn't make a lick of a difference to the fortunes of an NHL club, because he is never going to be a defenseman that will give you more than even a Cody Franson.

If we're going to hold everyone in the organization accountable for their performance, there's no way that is even an acceptable result when other teams like the Ducks are walking away with prospects like John Gibson, Justin Schultz and Devante Pelly Smith on a CONSISTENT basis in the second round of the draft.

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01-28-2013, 02:54 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
So you want to draft a Lucic but think the Biggs pick was worthless? They are very similar players. Big, cocky power forwards who can score goals and fight it out with any one.

Marchand and Ross are very similar players. Smaller, agitating pest types with some skill.

You can not get a Lucic or a Marchand if you dont take your chances with a Biggs or a Ross. Not saying they will pan out as good as the Bruins ones but we still need to take a chance on them.
I'm talking about economy picks where you get a ton of NHL value out of non first rounders, not trading a first and a second to move up a few spots like we always seem to.

And Ross is a bust, another example of the Leafs hype machine who can't even play at the AHL level.

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01-28-2013, 02:56 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
"It's not the flash and flair guys that win cups! Look at Boston! Blah blah blah..."

How many cups are on that list?
Now how many cups would be on that same list if we made the same one for our club......?

Yeah, proof is in the pudding..
Just for you.

Detroit

06
-Emmerton 78GP
-Matthias 210GP
-Mursak 45GP

Toronto
06
- Tlusty 232 GP
- Kulemin 308 GP
- Reiner 74 GP
- Holzer 3GP
- Stalberg 202 GP
- Komarov 5 GP

Detroit
07
- Smith 19 GP
- Andersson 5 GP

Toronto
07- No first or second rd pick
- Frattin 59 GP
-Gunnarson 192 GP

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01-28-2013, 02:56 PM
  #554
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Bottom line is, if we want to rebuild through the draft, we need to have a scouting staff you can trust, and given their piss poor record under Brian Burke, I have my doubts as to whether we have the right people in place to call the shots and to advocate for moving around in the draft. If Morrison isn't a guy you can feel comfortable making the right call, the rebuild is compromised before it starts.

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01-28-2013, 02:57 PM
  #555
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Blacker and Ryan are useless in terms of changing the fortunes of a franchise. By the time they're done developing in 2017 or whatever, you will have two players who are no better than Ian White and probably David Steckel ever were.
Is that a bad thing? Are you going to get a superstar with every single pick?

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01-28-2013, 03:01 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I'm talking about economy picks where you get a ton of NHL value out of non first rounders, not trading a first and a second to move up a few spots like we always seem to.

And Ross is a bust, another example of the Leafs hype machine who can't even play at the AHL level.
The organization was high on Biggs and I see no problems with them moving up for him. IF he turns out to be a powerforward in the true meaning then we have hit the jackpot big time. Those are very rare and contribute to the teams fortunes a great deal even if their skill level is below other top liners.

And Ross is hardly a bust. He is 20 years old and play his first pro season. Marchand was 22 when he became a full time NHL:er. No saying Ross wont be one when he turns 22.

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01-28-2013, 03:03 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
Is that a bad thing? Are you going to get a superstar with every single pick?
No, but considering the Leafs NEVER get a superstar with their non first rounders and have invested so much money into scouting, it is a bad thing that we aren't seeing results.

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01-28-2013, 03:06 PM
  #558
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No, but considering the Leafs NEVER get a superstar with their non first rounders and have invested so much money into scouting, it is a bad thing that we aren't seeing results.
I think its fair to say we haven't gotten a superstar in any round for a very long time.

Kadri could be really good but I think superstar is pushing it. Rielly might be the exception but...well, we'll see. Leaf luck isn't on his side.

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01-28-2013, 03:08 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
The organization was high on Biggs and I see no problems with them moving up for him.
You see, if the organization was any good and had some credibility, maybe that line of thinking would be valid. But it's the Leafs and their merry band of jokers who made that call.

Anaheim turned those picks into Rakell and Gibson, and I ask myself if I'd rather have had the opportunity to draft those two, or even two of Jenner, Rattie, Ouellet, Sproul, Harrington with our two picks.

So the fact that the organization was high on Biggs doesn't validate that trade since I don't think they're that competent.

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01-28-2013, 03:11 PM
  #560
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No, but considering the Leafs NEVER get a superstar with their non first rounders and have invested so much money into scouting, it is a bad thing that we aren't seeing results.
We traded number #2 for Kessel, a lot depends on where you draft, look at each draft, how many superstars has there been to pick when Mo had the chance to pick. 2010 and 2007 no firsts either, we had to trade Hayes just to get a 2nd to pick Ross. Good to examine the circumstances, Rielly was a great pick when everyone was screaming for Grigorenko and Forsberg. It wasn't an easy choice since he played only 18 games last year and had major knee surgury. It was a risky pick, but part of scouting is recognizing character, and I assure you, Mo through someone else was blown away by his team interview.

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01-28-2013, 03:14 PM
  #561
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You see, if the organization was any good and had some credibility, maybe that line of thinking would be valid. But it's the Leafs and their merry band of jokers who made that call.

Anaheim turned those picks into Rakell and Gibson, and I ask myself if I'd rather have had the opportunity to draft those two, or even two of Jenner, Rattie, Ouellet, Sproul, Harrington with our two picks.

So the fact that the organization was high on Biggs doesn't validate that trade since I don't think they're that competent.
We will just have to wait a few years until these players hopefully make it to the NHL before we can judge who made the right choice or not. I am happy with having a power forward prospect like Biggs in the system. And he showed in the JWC that he was a good player compared to the ones in the same age group. He is doing ok in the OHL this season as well.

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01-28-2013, 03:14 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
I think its fair to say we haven't gotten a superstar in any round for a very long time.

Kadri could be really good but I think superstar is pushing it. Rielly might be the exception but...well, we'll see. Leaf luck isn't on his side.
This is the whole issue with trusting these clowns to a rebuild.

Imagine its draft day 2013, and we have a top three pick, and Mackinnon, Jones, Drouin, Lindholm, Barkov, Monahan are all available, and we can trade up, trade down, stand pat.

We can either make a package top move up to number one, we can just see where the chips land or trade down a couple of spots to gain an extra first in the middle of the draft.

Do you trust that the Leafs scouting staff will be able to make the right call as to a) whom the best player in the bunch are and b) make the calculation whether the difference between 1st overall and 3rd overall is worth X compensation and c) whether if they move down a couple of spots they can still get the best of the bunch while adding a valuable asset?

This kind of dilemma is tantamount to Minnesota sitting there in 1983 with Lafontaine, Yzerman, Barrasso and Brian Lawton on the board.

I have zero faith in Morrison and company making the right judgement.

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01-28-2013, 03:17 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
We traded number #2 for Kessel, a lot depends on where you draft, look at each draft, how many superstars has there been to pick when Mo had the chance to pick. 2010 and 2007 no firsts either, we had to trade Hayes just to get a 2nd to pick Ross. Good to examine the circumstances, Rielly was a great pick when everyone was screaming for Grigorenko and Forsberg. It wasn't an easy choice since he played only 18 games last year and had major knee surgury. It was a risky pick, but part of scouting is recognizing character, and I assure you, Mo through someone else was blown away by his team interview.
Care to explain? Sounds intriguing.

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01-28-2013, 03:19 PM
  #564
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Care to explain? Sounds intriguing.
Word was, he was off the charts in his team interview at the draft/combine.

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01-28-2013, 03:21 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
This is the whole issue with trusting these clowns to a rebuild.

Imagine its draft day 2013, and we have a top three pick, and Mackinnon, Jones, Drouin, Lindholm, Barkov, Monahan are all available, and we can trade up, trade down, stand pat.

We can either make a package top move up to number one, we can just see where the chips land or trade down a couple of spots to gain an extra first in the middle of the draft.

Do you trust that the Leafs scouting staff will be able to make the right call as to a) whom the best player in the bunch are and b) make the calculation whether the difference between 1st overall and 3rd overall is worth X compensation and c) whether if they move down a couple of spots they can still get the best of the bunch while adding a valuable asset?

This kind of dilemma is tantamount to Minnesota sitting there in 1983 with Lafontaine, Yzerman, Barrasso and Brian Lawton on the board.

I have zero faith in Morrison and company making the right judgement.
Well, I'm pretty sure that there's another shoe to drop here following the Burke firing. Not sure it'll happen during the season, but with an ownership change I think there's more upheaval to come.

New management will want their own President, who will want their GM, and so on down the line. If you follow that line of thinking, I don't think the entire staff and scouting contingent that played a part in the poor results Brian Burke was fired for is going to be kept around in the long term.

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01-28-2013, 03:33 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Just for you.

Detroit

06
-Emmerton 78GP
-Matthias 210GP
-Mursak 45GP

Toronto
06
- Tlusty 232 GP
- Kulemin 308 GP
- Reiner 74 GP
- Holzer 3GP
- Stalberg 202 GP
- Komarov 5 GP

Detroit
07
- Smith 19 GP
- Andersson 5 GP

Toronto
07- No first or second rd pick
- Frattin 59 GP
-Gunnarson 192 GP
where were our crack team of scouts picking, for those picks, in relation to where the Wings' scouts were picking?

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01-28-2013, 03:43 PM
  #567
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And how successful have the wings been with their picks over the years, picking later, and getting more out of less.

This whole thread, you preach about how the results aren't there, the current group isn't getting us anywhere, so on and so forth....

With results as a measure, look at all these years of drafting, whether it was your buddy, Barry Trapp, or you're new infatuation Dave "safe pick" Morrisson. The RESULTS show a trend: That a good, well-paid scouting staff in Detroit has gotten the job done over the years, and drafted key players, that played key roles in winning championships, at less than preferable positions in the draft.

Skew it any way you'd like. And no, you CANNOT discount Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom. We have been behind the class in scouting and development FOR YEARS. It doesn't matter who has been at the top of the staff, we've been absolutely losing, and It's embarassing.

I was iffy on the firing of Burke, because of the timing, but as we've progressed, I'm far more optomistic about the future of this club, knowing that management is going to probably clean house quite a bit of the scouting and development crew, and the front office, and bring in guys that will do this thing right.

Who says we can't go ahead and sign Dale Tallon to a sweet contract if they don't keep Nonis around long? Clearly they weren't happy with the results of the Burke era, and Morrisson is right in there with him. Morrisson was Burke's guy, so no, he doesn't get a free pass, nor does his track record really afford him one.

Thommie Bergmann, I imagine, will continue to be here, as he's been under-utilized, but effective when he has been utilized.

Also, there are two different draft strategies at play, when looking at Toronto and Detroit, and two extremely different styles of development. It would appear to me, based on results over the past 20 years, regardless of who leads the scouting team, that there is a clear winner in there... Says 4 cups, Hart Trophies, Conn Smythe winners...

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01-28-2013, 03:44 PM
  #568
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not sure i understand the hate for the scouting staff. i think they`ve drafted fairly well personally. the age of getting a zetterberg in the 7th round is over. good on detroit for recognizing a wealth of untapped skill.
-late round picks take years to develop, so we shouldnt be talking about any of them.
-biggs was rumoured to be highly sought after by detroit at the draft, which is why we moved up to get him
-the scouting staff can only make recommendations, at the end of the day the GM decides whos name gets called, so who knows whether morrison has been veto`d by burke

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01-28-2013, 03:53 PM
  #569
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Word was, he was off the charts in his team interview at the draft/combine.
Good to hear. We need more good character guys on the team.

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01-28-2013, 03:58 PM
  #570
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where were our crack team of scouts picking, for those picks, in relation to where the Wings' scouts were picking?
Detroit had a first rd pick in 07, did the Leafs? No they didn't but were still able to unearth Frattin in the 4th rd and stole Gunnarson in the last rd.

Wings also had 3 2nd rd picks inside 62 in 06, and a 3rd rd pick, Leafs did not have a 3rd pick in 06. And the Leafs blew the doors out with 6 NHL'ers in 7 picks.

Detroit didn't draft as well as Morrison first years as Head Scout for the Leafs, the results speak for themselves for all to see.

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01-28-2013, 04:05 PM
  #571
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Detroit had a first rd pick in 07, did the Leafs? No they didn't but were still able to unearth Frattin in the 4th rd and stole Gunnarson in the last rd.

Wings also had 3 2nd rd picks inside 62 in 06, and a 3rd rd pick, Leafs did not have a 3rd pick in 06. And the Leafs blew the doors out with 6 NHL'ers in 7 picks.

Detroit didn't draft as well as Morrison first years as Head Scout for the Leafs, the results speak for themselves for all to see.
Yes... they are here for all to see, aren't they?
With a group of players who aren't getting us over the playoff hump.

Results speak for themselves.... Good scouting staffs draft talent that gets there team somewhere, not in a perpetual state of rebuild.. Simple as that... How many cups does the staff have 400KM down the 401?

Proof = Pudding

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01-28-2013, 04:09 PM
  #572
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Yes... they are here for all to see, aren't they?
With a group of players who aren't getting us over the playoff hump.

Results speak for themselves.... Good scouting staffs draft talent that gets there team somewhere, not in a perpetual state of rebuild.. Simple as that... How many cups does the staff have 400KM down the 401?

Proof = Pudding
To add, how hard has it been for Mo's picks to crack this pathetic line-up?
You're arguing that this team needs a total overhaul, and in the next breath, applauding the fact that these guys have made the club..... Well, the club has been AWFUL for.... how many years now?

No wonder they're making their way through before those in other systems. They're not exactly pushing world-beaters out of their spots. They're pushing out the Joey Crabb's, Tim Brent's, and the like.

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01-28-2013, 04:11 PM
  #573
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Good to hear. We need more good character guys on the team.
That's a high priority for Morrison, he likes character guys.

He got this one right.

One can say da Proof is in the pudding.

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01-28-2013, 04:23 PM
  #574
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Here's a tidbit for you guys, in the 06 draft, Morrison wanted Bryan Little badly, we almost got him, but he was picked 1 pick before us. Mo was apparently crushed.

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01-28-2013, 04:30 PM
  #575
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And his spirits were lifted, July 3rd, 2008, when we got a better player for the position.

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