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Mark Scheifele sent back to Barrie Colts (OHL)

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01-28-2013, 02:46 PM
  #376
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I'm in the 'send scheif back to Barrie' camp, as that may be the best for him. He needs to play, and play minutes. Next year, he can start with the IceCaps if he doesn't make the big club. He might be a prospect that needs a year or two in the AHL to develpo his offensive game at the pro level. Nothing wrong with that.

Ideally he's put in a top 3 or 6 role next year (in AHL or NHL) and gets 15+ mins/game to develop his pro game.

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01-28-2013, 02:48 PM
  #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
Just because the truth hurts does not mean that it is stupid or misinformed.

Hardcore Jets fans judging Schefflie are almost like parents judging their own children.
They can do no wrong & they always have the potential to be the next Crosby.

Take the blinders off.
Except, just as you've said it's an opinion so you could be just as wrong/right as anyone else.

Garret and others just showed that you were very likely wrong in a lot of your statements. Specifically the availability of Scheifele in later rounds.

You're also trying to use a straw man argument. No one and I seriously mean not one single person has come close to comparing him to Crosby. Find me that post because I know it doesn't exist. Plus what blinders? Scheifele has made consistent improvement from season to season. Is that not a reason for optimism? You had him pegged for failure from the beginning and yet he's improved in everyone's eyes. If anyone has blinders on it's very likely yourself.

Many are taking information from 3rd party sources which have Scheifele becoming a below average number one center to an above average second line center. There's a lot of scouting reports to substantiate this. Do you have any reports on which teams had Scheifele ranked where? There's a report Carolina was going to take him at 11. Do you literally have any proof other than your opinion?

Not sure why I bring it up though seeing as you completely ignore that fact when it's brought up and then try to make an extremist argument using Crosby as an example that actually never happened.

We're using facts and substantive proof behind our arguments. Whether it's referring to outside sources comparable development curves etc. All you've done is state your opinion (which is fine) with absolutely no proof backing it. You've made numerous claims that have been proven false and then to top it off you go further to make more incorrect claims (ie. comparisons to Crosby). Do you have any thing to actually say, or are you just looking for a way to vent your opinion without any factual backing?

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01-28-2013, 02:50 PM
  #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
"hindsight is 20/20" doesn't really apply because this discussion was based on pre-draft talk.

We don't have result on which to apply hindsight.
Well currently Couts is playing in the NHL for his second season. Has 3 points in 6 games and has moved up the depth chart in the Flyers org. and Schief may be on his way back to the Colts.

I guess I am viewing my "hindsight" at this current moment in time and Couterier at this moment was the better pick BUT I am hoping Schief will knock it out of the park once he develops more. and then I can adjust my 20/20 hindsight

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01-28-2013, 03:06 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Ziggy66 View Post
Well currently Couts is playing in the NHL for his second season. Has 3 points in 6 games and has moved up the depth chart in the Flyers org. and Schief may be on his way back to the Colts.

I guess I am viewing my "hindsight" at this current moment in time and Couterier at this moment was the better pick BUT I am hoping Schief will knock it out of the park once he develops more. and then I can adjust my 20/20 hindsight
Oh. I didn't realize people were bent about the 6 games.

FWIW, I am in the should have drafted Couturier camp, bit it is far too early for me to confirm or deny my initial thoughts. Not sure how anybody can confirm or deny anythin yet.

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01-28-2013, 03:07 PM
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy66 View Post
Well currently Couts is playing in the NHL for his second season. Has 3 points in 6 games and has moved up the depth chart in the Flyers org. and Schief may be on his way back to the Colts.

I guess I am viewing my "hindsight" at this current moment in time and Couterier at this moment was the better pick BUT I am hoping Schief will knock it out of the park once he develops more. and then I can adjust my 20/20 hindsight
right, i want to clarify that i don't consider the schiefele pick a failure nor believe in the hindsight 20/20 thing in this case, more that in hidnsight, sean couturier would do more at the nhl level in the year following his draft year then Mark schiefele. Hardly the the whole story.

as of right now IMO, any one of Schiefele, Hamilton, Couturier, and baertschi (there's probably more too) could very likely end up better then the rest(picked 7th and later)

I also still feel Schief might stick around this season, 3 games is not a sample size. In three games last year Spenecer Macahacek was a better player then sidney crosby. In three games last year alexander burmistrov was a better hockey player then pavel datsyuk. Short sample sizes tell you nothing.

edit:
Quote:
Oh. I didn't realize people were bent about the 6 games.
make no mistake i am considering very little of whats been done between these two players this season. as i just mentioned....sample size. Couturier is as likely to continue his 40+ point pace (82 games)as patric marleau is to continue his 152 goal pace(82 games).

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01-28-2013, 03:10 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
right, i want to clarify that i don't consider the schiefele pick a failure nor believe in the hindsight 20/20 thing in this case, more that in hidnsight, sean couturier would do more at the nhl level in the year following his draft year then Mark schiefele. Hardly the the whole story.

as of right now IMO, any one of Schiefele, Hamilton, Couturier, and baertschi (there's probably more too) could very likely end up better then the rest(picked 7th and later)

I also still feel Schief might stick around this season, 3 games is not a sample size. In three games last year Spenecer Macahacek was a better player then sidney crosby. In three games last year alexander burmistrov was a better hockey player then pavel datsyuk. Short sample sizes tell you nothing.
I hope he sticks around this season. I would like to see him assert himself with the team, grow with the team and there is so much more he would learn being around the team/practicing with the team then being with the Colts.

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01-28-2013, 03:12 PM
  #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Oh. I didn't realize people were bent about the 6 games.

FWIW, I am in the should have drafted Couturier camp, bit it is far too early for me to confirm or deny my initial thoughts. Not sure how anybody can confirm or deny anythin yet.
chill out truck. Not bent about anything

Just going on what both players have accomplished thus far. Don't really care as the past is the past and we have acquired a good talent obviously. We can only look to his future

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01-28-2013, 03:16 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
edit:
make no mistake i am considering very little of whats been done between these two players this season. as i just mentioned....sample size. Couturier is as likely to continue his 40+ point pace (82 games)as patric marleau is to continue his 152 goal pace(82 games).
I sure hope not.....my cousin drafted him right after my pick in the third round, he already slayed me this first week and I will not hear the end of it if Marleau continues this pace

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01-28-2013, 03:17 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Ziggy66 View Post
chill out truck. Not bent about anything

Just going on what both players have accomplished thus far. Don't really care as the past is the past and we have acquired a good talent obviously. We can only look to his future
I am chill. Did I seem unchill?

I was just speaking in generalities.

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01-28-2013, 03:19 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
I am chill. Did I seem unchill?

I was just speaking in generalities.
No, but I feel like I could use a beer and I am having hockey withdrawls after less then 24hrs which is putting me on edge

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01-28-2013, 04:04 PM
  #386
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Anyone else notice that when people come in here and restart the Scheifele debate, the majority of the time those people don't even spell his name right?

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01-28-2013, 04:06 PM
  #387
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I personally don't see Scheifele ending up the player the Jets thought he'd be... but I still think he'll be a decent player for us down the line.

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01-28-2013, 04:10 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Anyone else notice that when people come in here and restart the Scheifele debate, the majority of the time those people don't even spell his name right?
I thought is was an intentional "Cindy Crosby" type thing.

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01-28-2013, 04:29 PM
  #389
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This is all I was saying.

There must be a lot of angry Scheifele family members frequenting these boards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeMason50 View Post
I personally don't see Scheifele ending up the player the Jets thought he'd be... but I still think he'll be a decent player for us down the line.

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01-28-2013, 04:33 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
This is all I was saying.

There must be a lot of angry Scheifele family members frequenting these boards.
No... that isn't what you said...

And your comment about Scheifele family members is just as ridiculous as the rest because most of us keep saying that most of us would have and probably will prefer Couturier... but the success of one draft pick does not dictate the failure of another.

Good article:
http://www.puckprospectus.com/articl...articleid=1394
^and he also thought that Scheifele was a reach... but also thinks Scheifele is a 1C-2C potential tweener

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01-28-2013, 04:45 PM
  #391
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I am just stating my opinion.

I would take Couturier in a second over Scheifele.

Most posters are likely afraid to post anything negative about Scheifele's performance at an NHL level with so many yes men ready to attack.



Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
No... that isn't what you said...

And your comment about Scheifele family members is just as ridiculous as the rest because most of us keep saying that most of us would have and probably will prefer Couturier... but the success of one draft pick does not dictate the failure of another.

Good article:
http://www.puckprospectus.com/articl...articleid=1394
^and he also thought that Scheifele was a reach... but also thinks Scheifele is a 1C-2C potential tweener

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01-28-2013, 04:51 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by FreeMason50 View Post
I personally don't see Scheifele ending up the player the Jets thought he'd be... but I still think he'll be a decent player for us down the line.
I'm fully on this train of thought. I've never been a fan of the pick or the player, not saying this with 20/20 hindsight (which can't yet be applied to anyone from a year old draft) but I would have much rather had couts or hamilton at the time and now.

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01-28-2013, 04:59 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
I am just stating my opinion.

I would take Couturier in a second over Scheifele.

Most posters are likely afraid to post anything negative about Scheifele's performance at an NHL level with so many yes men ready to attack.
Or you know, people are generally happy what they see out of 19 year old who made some plays in his games, and could probably contribute in some role this season. There's that, but clearly that can't be the case.

Just because somebody does not agree with you does not make them a "yes man"...hell you will not find many that have attacked Jets management more than me recently...

Tired of going into Couturier v Scheifele, but only thing I'll mention about that is that everybody knew Couturier was NHL ready and going to be good defensively...his question mark was always offensive upside, something he has not shown yet. We'll see.

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01-28-2013, 05:10 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Or you know, people are generally happy what they see out of 19 year old who made some plays in his games, and could probably contribute in some role this season. There's that, but clearly that can't be the case.

Just because somebody does not agree with you does not make them a "yes man"...hell you will not find many that have attacked Jets management more than me recently...

Tired of going into Couturier v Scheifele, but only thing I'll mention about that is that everybody knew Couturier was NHL ready and going to be good defensively...his question mark was always offensive upside, something he has not shown yet. We'll see.
?

223 pts in 184 games in his three years of junior? two straight seasons of 96pts.


I dont think Couturiers offensive ability was in question? Well I hope not anyway, I do realize he had a week WJC performance with only 3 points in 7 games but:


2010-11 QMJHL - Michel Briere (Most Valuable Player)
2010-11 QMJHL - Michael Bossy Trophy (Top Draft Prospect)
2010-11 QMJHL - First All-Star Team
2009-10 QMJHL - Jean Beliveau Trophy (Leading scorer)
2009-10 QMJHL - Second All-Star Team

Obviously this doesnt equate to immidiate offensive talent in the NHL but to doubt that he can create offensively is kind of strange IMO

I think the Jets Org. saw more potential in Scheif for what they needed in a player at the time and he will roll into the organization at some point and assume his role soon....fingers crossed this season but if not next season forsure.

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01-28-2013, 05:11 PM
  #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
I am just stating my opinion.

I would take Couturier in a second over Scheifele.

Most posters are likely afraid to post anything negative about Scheifele's performance at an NHL level with so many yes men ready to attack.
I probably still would too... That wasn't the problem most were having. Just some of your statements were pretty extreme, exaggerated and some even impossible.

I don't take much into his very small sample size performance in the NHL...

Mark is playing 8ish minutes a game of even strength time predominately with Slater and Thorburn, and in a position that he only ever played at the WJC.
The Jets have been out chanced when he's on the ice but to a lesser degree than when Slater or Thorburn have been in their total time, but more so than Wright (who has been pushed into the defensive zone less than the previous three players).
Mark has created more offense as he's posted more SOG/GP than all 4 of the above players.

BUT, IMO he is "NHL ready" in the true wording of the meaning. He could probably play this season and even contribute but it would have to be in a very sheltered offensive minutes nature... and we already have that in Wellwood (not saying Scheifele or Wellwood deserve a spot). Frankly I don't think either Barrie or NHL will be far and above the other for his development as both have pros and cons. What I do think is what will make him a pro next season is power skating and 10-15 lbs.

He has his fair share of weaknesses and skating/balance are definitely them, but his progression in both pts/gp in Junior and what 3rd party scouts have recognized is very optimistic... and these guys don't have to be optimistic.

Just for example I'll show the progression and change from Hockey Prospectus:

August 31, 2011; Jets' Top 10 Prosepcts
Quote:
#2
The Good: Mark Scheifele had a good year from a counting statistics standpoint on a poor Barrie team and a good Under-18 tournament; his stock has come a ways over the course of the past season. Scheifele's puck skills are fine, and while he doesn't bring any form of flashy stick-handling or stretch passes to the table, he can handle the puck at a moderate level and make the right distributions while bringing the puck up the ice and on the power play. He also shows good puck protection skills along the side boards. Scheifele projects as a solid-average to above-average physical player as he has room to fill out even though he's already notably strong and works well along the walls. His hockey sense is above-average and it's what will drive his value towards the highest level, as he anticipates the flow of the game well, rarely turns the puck over, and plays well in his own zone.

The Bad: Scheifele is a low ceiling but highly projectable player without a true standout tool. His skating grades as below-average, and while his mechanics are fine, his feet are just somewhat heavy and he doesn't have an NHL-level top speed.

Projection: An average second line center who safely projects as a below-average second to above-average third line center.
November 23, 2011; Top 50 NHL Prospects
Quote:
28. Mark Scheifele, Center, Winnipeg Jets (Previous Ranking: NR)

I admit I'm jumping on the bandwagon late, although I still have my skepticism about Scheifele's ultimate projection. The hockey sense is a legit plus tool and the puck skills are better than I gave him credit for, but the skating worries me and it's what likely keeps his projection at a good second line player.
August 8, 2012; Jets' Top 10 Prospects
Quote:
#1
The Good: Mark Scheifele has high-end hockey sense and is an absolutely fantastic playmaker. He makes plays with his hands and vision every single shift and can have the offense flow through him. Scheifele is a good defensive center who is very responsible and aware for a junior-aged player. When he fills out, he'll be a good physical player in terms of protecting the puck and winning board battles.

The Bad: Scheifele's skating showed notable improvement this season, even at times looking pro-average, but he can still look a little sluggish at times. He needs to gain a good amount of strength before he's fully ready for the top level.

Projection: He could be a below-average top line center.
January 6, 2013; Top 50 NHL Prospects
Quote:
20. Mark Scheifele, Center, Winnipeg Jets (Previous Ranking: 28): Scheifele continues to improve his game and seems to be tracking well as a prospect. He has great offensive hockey sense and he seems to be getting an extra step or two as well. If he can be an average skater, that's all he'll really need.

Again, I would agree that Couturier is a better prospect, but to ignore that most evidence pointing that Scheifele will most likely become a solid NHLer is as silly as ignoring most evidence pointing out that Couturier will become a solid NHLer.


Last edited by garret9: 01-28-2013 at 05:17 PM.
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01-28-2013, 05:13 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
I am just stating my opinion.

I would take Couturier in a second over Scheifele.

Most posters are likely afraid to post anything negative about Scheifele's performance at an NHL level with so many yes men ready to attack.
Me too, but what's done is done. I hope Chevy is a genius and makes me feel silly for doubting him. That said, the Couturier comparison is one that I will watch, but it has nothing to do with Scheifele.

Scheifele is his own prospect and he doesn't have to answer for what Couturier does. He doesn't gave to answer for what Strome, Hueb etc do either.

The Scheifele / Couturier thing is relevant when judging Chevy, not Scheifele.

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01-28-2013, 05:14 PM
  #397
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Most fans that I have personally talked to are not more than happy with his play at an NHL level. I know that he is going to take a long time to develop.


I want this team to win more than anyone & I may not have voiced my opinion in the nicest way but I don't feel the need sugar coat.

If we offered Scheifele for Couturier in a straight goods trade right now to Philly they would laugh in our faces.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Or you know, people are generally happy what they see out of 19 year old who made some plays in his games, and could probably contribute in some role this season. There's that, but clearly that can't be the case.

Just because somebody does not agree with you does not make them a "yes man"...hell you will not find many that have attacked Jets management more than me recently...

Tired of going into Couturier v Scheifele, but only thing I'll mention about that is that everybody knew Couturier was NHL ready and going to be good defensively...his question mark was always offensive upside, something he has not shown yet. We'll see.

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01-28-2013, 05:17 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by Ziggy66 View Post
?

223 pts in 184 games in his three years of junior? two straight seasons of 96pts.


I dont think Couturiers offensive ability was in question? Well I hope not anyway, I do realize he had a week WJC performance with only 3 points in 7 games but:


2010-11 QMJHL - Michel Briere (Most Valuable Player)
2010-11 QMJHL - Michael Bossy Trophy (Top Draft Prospect)
2010-11 QMJHL - First All-Star Team
2009-10 QMJHL - Jean Beliveau Trophy (Leading scorer)
2009-10 QMJHL - Second All-Star Team

Obviously this doesnt equate to immidiate offensive talent in the NHL but to doubt that he can creat offensively is kind of strange IMO

I think the Jets Org. saw more potential in Scheif for what they needed in a player at the time and he will roll into the organization at some point and assume his role soon....fingers crossed this season but if not so be it.
I guess Corey Locke was guaranteed franchise player then eh?

He scored plenty of points in junior, but the fact that he pretty much plateaued in his draft year and there were concerns that it was merely his physical maturation that allowed him to score in juniors and he did not have an offensive skill set for the NHL. His skating was not considered good as well, another thing that many felt would limit his offensive potential. That was the main reason he slipped in the draft.

He has done nothing to alleviate those fears.

Also, as I have said many times, WJC is a horrible way to evaluate players, particularly draft eligible players, even late birthdays like Couturier, so put no stock into that at all, IMO. That is FAR from where those concerns came from.

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01-28-2013, 05:20 PM
  #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
Most fans that I have personally talked to are not more than happy with his play at an NHL level. I know that he is going to take a long time to develop.


I want this team to win more than anyone & I may not have voiced my opinion in the nicest way but I don't feel the need sugar coat.

If we offered Scheifele for Couturier in a straight goods trade right now to Philly they would laugh in our faces.
Whatever. If you expect any player to be a dominant player at 19, you are asking too much. Couturier was a 4th liner at 19, fyi.

Who gives a flying **** about Couturier though. I mean seriously, this is about Scheifele, why do you keep bringing up Couturier, I just don't care. He is not a Winnipeg Jet.

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01-28-2013, 05:22 PM
  #400
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As has been said, I think he needs to play in a scoring role. I also think a guy like Machacek brings more to the team this year to that third line. No reason to rush Scheifele.

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