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Mark Scheifele sent back to Barrie Colts (OHL)

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01-28-2013, 05:25 PM
  #401
Ziggy66
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I guess Corey Locke was guaranteed franchise player then eh?

He scored plenty of points in junior, but the fact that he pretty much plateaued in his draft year and there were concerns that it was merely his physical maturation that allowed him to score in juniors and he did not have an offensive skill set for the NHL. His skating was not considered good as well, another thing that many felt would limit his offensive potential. That was the main reason he slipped in the draft.

He has done nothing to alleviate those fears.

Also, as I have said many times, WJC is a horrible way to evaluate players, particularly draft eligible players, even late birthdays like Couturier, so put no stock into that at all, IMO. That is FAR from where those concerns came from.
Lol Corey Locke is the man!! how dare you use him in a ruse he is also physically tiny though but was one hell of an AHL player. but yes there are a ton of Jr. scoring leaders who turned into duds.

Ah I get where you are coming from in regards to the scouting concerns. I honestly do not take much stock in or read alot of scouting reports. I just watch how the player plays whenever they are on t.v. or youtube vids and form my own opinion.

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01-28-2013, 05:25 PM
  #402
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There are really good legitimate arguments for keeping him up and sending him down. I like the way our top 9 is playing off the start. If Barrie only plays 2 games over the next 10 days then we are in a great spot to hold on to him longer than most teams with their prospects. Over the next 10 days, if we get any major injuries / issues to our top 9, then I think he could stay since he'd be playing a bigger role but can still be somewhat sheltered. If we are healthy and continuing our early season form, then I think he needs to go down.

I'm a believer in sending him down if all things remain equal. I just think he's really close and a tough call either way. I usually wouldn't say short term team needs should affect the decision, but in this case I would leave it open somewhat to the injury magic 8-ball.

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01-28-2013, 05:30 PM
  #403
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These Scheifele/Couturier debates are getting ridiculous.

Scheifele is 19; his career is just beginning. The only way that one can claim right now that Couturier will definitively prove the better pick/player is if one assumes that careers are judged by their performances at 18/19 years of age. Here is a news flash; they aren't. Scheifele will be judged as a player based upon his body of work in the NHL. How about we let that play out for a few years prior to judging him? Just because Couturier may have been the more NHL ready player at 18 in no way means that he will prove the better player over time. That is yet to be determined... despite any claims made here on this board to the contrary.


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01-28-2013, 05:30 PM
  #404
Hank Chinaski
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Take it for what it's worth, but Bobby Mac just said on That's Hockey that the Jets will probably take their time in deciding whether or not to send Scheifele back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
Most fans that I have personally talked to are not more than happy with his play at an NHL level. I know that he is going to take a long time to develop.

I want this team to win more than anyone & I may not have voiced my opinion in the nicest way but I don't feel the need sugar coat.

If we offered Scheifele for Couturier in a straight goods trade right now to Philly they would laugh in our faces.
And if Philly offered Couturier straight up for Scheifele, Chevy would laugh and hang up on Homer. I don't understand what your point is here. We're talking about two players at different developmental stages, and we have absolutely no clue what their ceilings are.

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01-28-2013, 05:34 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Take it for what it's worth, but Bobby Mac just said on That's Hockey that the Jets will probably take their time in deciding whether or not to send Scheifele back.



And if Philly offered Couturier straight up for Scheifele, Chevy would laugh and hang up on Homer. I don't understand what your point is here. We're talking about two players at different developmental stages, and we have absolutely no clue what their ceilings are.
People often forget, Couturier was 19 last season, 20 this year. He had completed 3 full seasons in the QMJHL when he was drafted. Scheifele is only 19 this year, and was only in the middle of his 3rd OHL season this year...

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01-28-2013, 05:46 PM
  #406
Hank Chinaski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
People often forget, Couturier was 19 last season, 20 this year. He had completed 3 full seasons in the QMJHL when he was drafted. Scheifele is only 19 this year, and was only in the middle of his 3rd OHL season this year...
And IIRC, that was part of the reason why Couturier dropped. He was an older 18 year old that plateaued offensively in his draft year.

Can't believe we're still having this Couturier vs. Scheifele debate. Everyone knew that Couturier was the more pro-ready prospect who was further along in his development, of course he's doing better at the present moment.

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01-28-2013, 05:50 PM
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
And IIRC, that was part of the reason why Couturier dropped. He was an older 18 year old that plateaued offensively in his draft year.

Can't believe we're still having this Couturier vs. Scheifele debate. Everyone knew that Couturier was the more pro-ready prospect who was further along in his development, of course he's doing better at the present moment.
What I don't understand - its almost as if some are cheering for his failure. He's a Jet, last I checked - shouldn't we be hoping for his success?

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01-28-2013, 05:59 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
What I don't understand - its almost as if some are cheering for his failure. He's a Jet, last I checked - shouldn't we be hoping for his success?
Absolutely.

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01-28-2013, 06:10 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
What I don't understand - its almost as if some are cheering for his failure. He's a Jet, last I checked - shouldn't we be hoping for his success?
No doubt.

I mean, I can understand the mentality, that you don't want to be seen as a dupe, not "drinking the Kool-Aid", whatever. That's fine. What I can't understand is the tone that this is somehow a foregone conclusion, that the Jets blundered by taking Scheifele.

I myself would've liked to see the Jets draft Couturier; doesn't automatically mean I think Scheifele was the "wrong" pick. And thus far, I think Mark has dispelled any of those notions that he was a reach by 10+ picks. Can you imagine what an unbelievable steal he would be considered as a late first-rounder?

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01-28-2013, 06:19 PM
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
No doubt.

I mean, I can understand the mentality, that you don't want to be seen as a dupe, not "drinking the Kool-Aid", whatever. That's fine. What I can't understand is the tone that this is somehow a foregone conclusion, that the Jets blundered by taking Scheifele.

I myself would've liked to see the Jets draft Couturier; doesn't automatically mean I think Scheifele was the "wrong" pick. And thus far, I think Mark has dispelled any of those notions that he was a reach by 10+ picks. Can you imagine what an unbelievable steal he would be considered as a late first-rounder?
Exactly.

I think almost everyone wanted Couturier during the draft and when Scheifele was the guy, we all said "who?" I was in that crowd.

Now we've got Scheifele and we've got a kid whose grown each and every season. Even people who weren't fans of him before, Corey Pronman for example, have stated that they're now seeing what's good about him and acknowledging his growth as one of the best prospects in the league. I guess some people are really dwelling on the Couturier pick and using that as a detractor to Scheifele which isn't how it works.

The Couturier debate is pointless right now anyway. 5 years down the road is a legitimate time to discuss what the right pick was.

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01-28-2013, 06:29 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Sweech View Post
Exactly.

I think almost everyone wanted Couturier during the draft and when Scheifele was the guy, we all said "who?" I was in that crowd.

Now we've got Scheifele and we've got a kid whose grown each and every season. Even people who weren't fans of him before, Corey Pronman for example, have stated that they're now seeing what's good about him and acknowledging his growth as one of the best prospects in the league. I guess some people are really dwelling on the Couturier pick and using that as a detractor to Scheifele which isn't how it works.

The Couturier debate is pointless right now anyway. 5 years down the road is a legitimate time to discuss what the right pick was.
Even in 5 years, Scheifele / Couturier is about Chevy. It isn't about Scheifele.

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01-28-2013, 06:36 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
Even in 5 years, Scheifele / Couturier is about Chevy. It isn't about Scheifele.
I'll give Chevy a break on the Scheifele pick (if it turns out very much one-sided in favor of Couturier) due to the short time lines to be ready for the draft and relying on scouts and responsibilities new to him. Only that year.

And even if Couturier is a dynamite player, if Scheifele turns into a useful player for the Jets, that can be considered a draft success in its own right.

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01-28-2013, 06:39 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
What I don't understand - its almost as if some are cheering for his failure. He's a Jet, last I checked - shouldn't we be hoping for his success?
This sounds like others cheering for Pavs to fail.

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01-28-2013, 06:41 PM
  #414
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I'll give Chevy a break on the Scheifele pick (if it turns out very much one-sided in favor of Couturier) due to the short time lines to be ready for the draft and relying on scouts and responsibilities new to him. Only that year.

And even if Couturier is a dynamite player, if Scheifele turns into a useful player for the Jets, that can be considered a draft success in its own right.
I think Hawerchuck pumping Scheifele's tires helped make up Chevy's mind IMO.

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01-28-2013, 06:43 PM
  #415
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I want Mark to play with the Jets when he is mature enough physically to handle a top 6 role...I don't want him playing on the 4th line we have a lot of scrubs who can fit that role....who in our top six do you send down to put in a physically immature Mark Scheifele?

P.S. Rumours are Couturier wanted very little to do with the Jets organization so screw him......not the kind of guy the organization was looking for...

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01-28-2013, 06:46 PM
  #416
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Are we seriously still on this Couturier vs Scheifele thing?

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01-28-2013, 06:57 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by TroubaFan1 View Post
This sounds like others cheering for Pavs to fail.
I don't think any have cheered for his failure...

IIRC it was people deciding on last season if the Jets' poor GA were more reflective on Pavelec or the defence

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01-28-2013, 07:01 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
I don't think any have cheered for his failure...

IIRC it was people deciding on last season if the Jets' poor GA were more reflective on Pavelec or the defence
Thats your opinion, but I disagree. IMO from some comments that were made, people were cheering for Pavs to fail.

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01-28-2013, 07:03 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
Are we seriously still on this Couturier vs Scheifele thing?
i dare say this one will crop op eternally unless schiefele becomes a clear "better" player.

edit on pavs hating vs shiefele hating.

If you look at the post critiquing Pav's, they are generally based on statistical analysis and are a breakdown on what's actually happened: "has Pav's let down the team, or has the team let down Pav's" and looks at realistic expectations. i don't think anyone says "Pav's is going to be a big let down for the jets." or "Pav's will never be better then a backup" or "Chevy should be fired for giving Pavelec the contract he did".

When you look at the arguments presented against Schiefele, the rhetoric generally falls more in line with this. Based off nothing but opinion(which should not be a defence that should make a post immune to scrutiny) and tea leaves, posts detract schiefele as becoming "a third liner tops" or "a good depth player in the AHL", or "less then jets management expect" (did chevy say what he expects schiefele to become in the future, i don't remember that interview...).

that's where my frustration comes from anyways....


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01-28-2013, 07:05 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by TroubaFan1 View Post
I think Hawerchuck pumping Scheifele's tires helped make up Chevy's mind IMO.
Chevaldayoff has no connection to Hawerchuck...
Neither does the Atlanta scouting staff who were the people who pumped his tires...

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01-28-2013, 07:07 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by TroubaFan1 View Post
Thats your opinion, but I disagree. IMO from some comments that were made, people were cheering for Pavs to fail.
I don't see it myself. You have a specific example?

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01-28-2013, 07:07 PM
  #422
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Thats your opinion, but I disagree. IMO from some comments that were made, people were cheering for Pavs to fail.
This isn't an opinion thing... it's a factual statement about what people (who I would be the majority of) said... ?

Since most of it was Truck and I and that we said that it was more Pav's than D but we know he has a ton of potential... and on top of that I even posted a 3rd party scouting company that stated they think this season would be Pav's break out season (which so far seems true so let's all hope it continues!).

Most of the other comments were people saying they were nervous...

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01-28-2013, 07:21 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by TroubaFan1 View Post
I think Hawerchuck pumping Scheifele's tires helped make up Chevy's mind IMO.
I can't see this.

If Chipman was running the draft sure, but he has nothing to do with it. Even Chevy himself doesn't decide the picks.

Chevy had no prior affiliation with Jets 1.0 and therefore no affiliation with Dale. Plus it was our scouting staff (inherited from Atlanta) that were raving about him and they possibly have an affiliation (they've taken Barrie players before) but not with the implied "Dale's a former Winnipeg Jet affiliation".

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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
This isn't an opinion thing... it's a factual statement about what people (who I would be the majority of) said... ?
It's become a new weird thing on here where people just keep backing themselves with "it's my opinion" as if it's a defense or replacement for factual information.

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Originally Posted by TroubaFan1 View Post
Thats your opinion, but I disagree. IMO from some comments that were made, people were cheering for Pavs to fail.
I saw some of the stats guys showing why Pavelec wasn't that great or why he didn't deserve the contract he got, but I've never seen anyone cheering on any failure for him. I think they want him to develop and succeed like the rest of us.

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01-28-2013, 07:33 PM
  #424
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Gah too much anntimmitosittty <--- thats what I do when I forget how to spell something..just add more letters :p

Move along now people.......nothing to see here.

Let's wait and see what the org decides to do with Mark. Love to see him play a couple more games but if the Jets decide to send him to Barrie to finish up his season there then so be it.

I think I will revisit this thread at a later point in time lol

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01-28-2013, 07:36 PM
  #425
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
This isn't an opinion thing... it's a factual statement about what people (who I would be the majority of) said... ?

Since most of it was Truck and I and that we said that it was more Pav's than D but we know he has a ton of potential... and on top of that I even posted a 3rd party scouting company that stated they think this season would be Pav's break out season (which so far seems true so let's all hope it continues!).

Most of the other comments were people saying they were nervous...
I obviously remember a different conversation.

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