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01-28-2013, 07:40 PM
  #126
Cin
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
This is backwards. Smith can play up or down a lineup and be a valuable member of a team while Fraser is the guy who is a top 6 or bust type. A checking line would be dragged down by his defensive game and any potential PP contributions he could make would probably be hampered by playing with 4th line caliber players on a regular basis.
Correct in every way possible.

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01-28-2013, 07:43 PM
  #127
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Look at that, Larsen contributes to the PP.
Was only on the ice due to a clerical error.

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01-28-2013, 07:55 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
This is backwards. Smith can play up or down a lineup and be a valuable member of a team while Fraser is the guy who is a top 6 or bust type. A checking line would be dragged down by his defensive game and any potential PP contributions he could make would probably be hampered by playing with 4th line caliber players on a regular basis.
I see where you are coming from but I disagree. Fraser is kind of a one trick pony and I don't think he could ever be exposed as much as he would on the 2nd line and be successful. 4th line and then power play however would be fine.

As much as you may disagree with it, kind of like Morrow is atm. 4th line minutes with net presence on the power play.

Smith, I may have overly played the binary with against Fraser, but I wasn't far off the mark. He is too soft to play down the lineup long into his career, so I see him earning the minutes of top 6 or having a hard time keeping a lineup spot. Eventually. He will definitely get time to develop.

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01-28-2013, 07:56 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Cin View Post
Correct in every way possible.
That point I made about Fraser's PP abilities being dragged down by playing with 4th liners on a regular basis...I'm not a hockey player. In your experience is that a legitimate concern? It just seems to me that whenever I've watched skilled players with lesser teammates in the past they have to dumb down their game to the point that when they actually get linemates of equal talent they take a while to adjust.

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01-28-2013, 07:59 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
I hope I'm wrong, but like I mentioned in the GDT earlier today, is Gully seriously deciding which D play on the PP based on who they are paired with?

I don't want to complain since it works in Larsen's favor tonight, but it's also silly if that's the only reason Robi was on the PP earlier.
i'd venture to guess no. my reasoning comes from what i saw in training camp. iirc, the even strength pairings then were the same as the start of the season. the pp pairings were mixed up, though.

with larsen's apparent demotion, i think it was just natural that the pp points were manned by the same defensive pairs (goose-robidas & benn-daley).

b**** and moan about gully all we want, but to his credit, he's made changes, and these changes the last couple of games are closer to what we here collectively seem to want than not...

* minimized morrow's minutes (and seems to be playing better)
* replaced wandell with eakin in top 6
* sit larsen but bring him back in a more pronounced role (hopefully lit a fire under him)
* mixed up the defensive pairings

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Old
01-28-2013, 08:05 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by haf View Post
I see where you are coming from but I disagree. Fraser is kind of a one trick pony and I don't think he could ever be exposed as much as he would on the 2nd line and be successful. 4th line and then power play however would be fine.

As much as you may disagree with it, kind of like Morrow is atm. 4th line minutes with net presence on the power play.

Smith, I may have overly played the binary with against Fraser, but I wasn't far off the mark. He is too soft to play down the lineup long into his career, so I see him earning the minutes of top 6 or having a hard time keeping a lineup spot. Eventually. He will definitely get time to develop.
Just going to have to agree to disagree on both players.

Theoretically, Morrow can help on the PP because all he's really being asked to do is provide screens for the goalie. Fraser's role would be different in every way imaginable. He would be playing the Brett Hull, Stamkos type role looking for the open slot to slam home a shot. That takes skill and IMO a mindset that you don't get by routinely playing a 4th line role.

I'm not sure how far down the road you're talking about with Smith's career but I'm really only concerned with the next 4-5 years in a discussion of this sort. I'm confident that he could be a valuable 3-4th liner for the duration of that time. Also, I just don't see him being soft. He's not going to lay a big hit but he's put on quite a bit more mass since his draft year and seems to have a pretty solid build for his stature.

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01-28-2013, 08:17 PM
  #132
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On how many teams in the league is the team's best player not on the 1st PP unit?

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01-28-2013, 08:20 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
On how many teams in the league is the team's best player not on the 1st PP unit?
On how many teams in the league is the lone goal scorer (with a PP goal from the point) not on the PP to start it?

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01-28-2013, 08:21 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
On how many teams in the league is the team's best player not on the 1st PP unit?
I don't have an explanation for coming out of that break, but every other PP was draw with Benn and Jagr on the ice IIRC. That's why they didn't start the PP, but I think they technically are the #1 unit.

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01-28-2013, 08:33 PM
  #135
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I don't have an explanation for coming out of that break, but every other PP was draw with Benn and Jagr on the ice IIRC. That's why they didn't start the PP, but I think they technically are the #1 unit.
We'll see how things go next game but coming out of that break there's no excuse. I really really want to see Benn play in some situations with Whitney. I have a feeling the two of them are poised for some solid chemistry. That and Jagr just hasn't looked very good lately.

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01-28-2013, 08:33 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
That point I made about Fraser's PP abilities being dragged down by playing with 4th liners on a regular basis...I'm not a hockey player. In your experience is that a legitimate concern? It just seems to me that whenever I've watched skilled players with lesser teammates in the past they have to dumb down their game to the point that when they actually get linemates of equal talent they take a while to adjust.
It definitely affects the 'thinkers' more than the casual fan would think. Think of it like this...

Everybody who plays professionally has skill, and they've proven that they can do some great things on the ice at some point in their career. With each league up though, it's all about thinking the game faster. So yes, being put on a 4th line where you're not even on the same page mentally with your line mates can definitely detract from your overall game. However if you get PP time, then you're expected to put the pieces together. On the PP you're supposed to be about on par with the people you're playing with.

I saw tons of examples though where a new hotshot player comes through, plays STELLAR when he needs to come up with a big play on his own. Then he goes on the PP and looks like a horrible player because he just sees things wayyyyy differently than everybody else on the ice. Kid gets traded to a team with more talent or that has a player of a similar style of thinking and then flourishes.

It all seriously comes down to coaching though, and quite a bit. When a coach puts you in a position to fail right out of the gate, it's damn near impossible to overcome unless you're just an absolute beast. Coaches HAVE to recognize what they have in each player, and place them accordingly.

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Old
01-28-2013, 08:51 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
I don't have an explanation for coming out of that break, but every other PP was draw with Benn and Jagr on the ice IIRC. That's why they didn't start the PP, but I think they technically are the #1 unit.
Correct.

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01-28-2013, 09:21 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
We'll see how things go next game but coming out of that break there's no excuse. I really really want to see Benn play in some situations with Whitney. I have a feeling the two of them are poised for some solid chemistry. That and Jagr just hasn't looked very good lately.
Gully said from the start he wanted to try Whitney on the point. I think, and Stepneski or Heika may have speculated, he wanted to wait until he had Benn so he had 2 centers for the PP. I suspect Whitney will be the point on the 1st unit when Roy returns.

Morrow-Benn-Jagr
Goligoski-Whitney

Eriksson-Roy-Ryder
Who the **** knows?

I'd like to see Daley and Larsen, but I'd also like to see Morrow stapled to the bench on the PP after the way he's started the season. Who the hell knows if they'll keep giving Larsen minutes.

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01-28-2013, 09:35 PM
  #139
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I know Gully is a player's coach who wants to gently guide the team towards the right direction, but he's gotta start taking a hard line. It's been a season and 6 games and this team still doesn't not get the message.

I know Joe wanted to go a players coach after "perceiving" Crawford to be a hard-ass, but he really wasn't. From all accounts Crawford changed his ways and was much more mellow and supportive.

This team really needed a Laviolette or Torterella w ho will rip them a new one and create accountability where it's needed. I really do think that's why we've had 3 different coaches with the same results.

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01-28-2013, 09:52 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by MetalGodAOD View Post
I know Gully is a player's coach who wants to gently guide the team towards the right direction, but he's gotta start taking a hard line. It's been a season and 6 games and this team still doesn't not get the message.

I know Joe wanted to go a players coach after "perceiving" Crawford to be a hard-ass, but he really wasn't. From all accounts Crawford changed his ways and was much more mellow and supportive.

This team really needed a Laviolette or Torterella w ho will rip them a new one and create accountability where it's needed. I really do think that's why we've had 3 different coaches with the same results.
Absolutely spot on.

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01-28-2013, 11:34 PM
  #141
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Fraser is Ryder reincarnate. If he's not a top six guy he's not playing in the NHL. He has the best shot outside of Jagr in the organization. Kid knows where to go on the ice to score, makes himself available and when given the opportunity puts the puck in the net. That one skill separates him from a lot of hockey players. He's never going to be Eriksson on the back check but he has improved tremendously in his positioning and defensive awareness.

There's not room for him now but I expect he's the guy who replaces Ryder at the deadline. There will always bee room for a guy with his talent.

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01-28-2013, 11:39 PM
  #142
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Fraser is Ryder reincarnate. If he's not a top six guy he's not playing in the NHL. He has the best shot outside of Jagr in the organization. Kid knows where to go on the ice to score, makes himself available and when given the opportunity puts the puck in the net. That one skill separates him from a lot of hockey players. He's never going to be Eriksson on the back check but he has improved tremendously in his positioning and defensive awareness.

There's not room for him now but I expect he's the guy who replaces Ryder at the deadline. There will always bee room for a guy with his talent.
Ryder and Benn both beg to differ. Two of those 3 will likely be gone next year, though.

I want him or Smith in the top 6 full time by the end of the year unless the top 6 gets rolling and we're in a playoff spot. Even then, if they're ready, you give it to them.

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01-29-2013, 12:17 PM
  #143
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Agree with those that say Fraser is a top six or bust guy and that he's like Ryder in that regard. Dude has an extremely accurate shot and just has a nose for scoring. He knows where to be to get scoring chances. I've been intrigued with him since last season and want to see him get a real shot at some point. He deserves it when there's room. If you score like he does in the AHL someone will give him a shot eventually if the Stars don't. It's not like he's some tiny Keith Aucoin type that dominates in the AHL but isn't built for the NHL. This is a big guy. He has question marks in his game. But when you have the shot he does..they can be overlooked somewhat.

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01-29-2013, 09:27 PM
  #144
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So what if, instead of firing Gulutzan, Nieuwendyk gave him a vote of confidence?

*dodges rotten fruit*

Hear me out! Basically, I have a theory that Gully is just so flustered with how crappy his team is, and so desperate to right the ship in a hurry to get into the playoff picture and save his job, that he's just ruining everything completely. If Nieuwy tells him instead that his job is safe, and not to worry about making the playoffs, to just develop our prospects, keep games close even if they're losses, and generally make the most out of this season from a developmental standpoint (landing Jones wouldn't be too bad) then it might fix many of our problems with him. He'll play our young prospects, if they suck whatever, they'll learn, or maybe the won't, but at least they're playing and not watching. He won't ride Kari, Bachs will show the league what he's made of, maybe build some trade value.

Basically tldr etc if they eliminate the pressure to win, they could potentially salvage what looks to be a pretty hopeless season.

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01-29-2013, 09:29 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
If Nieuwy tells him instead that his job is safe, and not to worry about making the playoffs, to just develop our prospects, keep games close even if they're losses, and generally make the most out of this season from a developmental standpoint (landing Jones wouldn't be too bad) then it might fix many of our problems with him.
Bolded is your problem right away.

He likes his vets way too much to do that.

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01-29-2013, 09:34 PM
  #146
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Bolded is your problem right away.

He likes his vets way too much to do that.
Maybe he wouldn't play them over prospects if their development was mandated.

Basically, I don't believe Gulutzan is an idiot. He's clearly not thinking clearly right now.

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01-29-2013, 09:37 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
tldr etc if they eliminate the pressure to win, they could potentially salvage what looks to be a pretty hopeless season.
This makes sense in theory, but the problem is that Joe is incapable of giving a vote of confidence since he himself is on the hot seat.

It really is a self-fulfilling prophecy though. Tippett feels his job is in danger -----> makes poor coaching decisions. Crawford feels his job is in jeopardy ------> makes even worse coaching decisions. And now we see it rear its ugly head again with Gulutzan. The more coaches struggle against the riptide to save their skins, the more it drags them under...

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01-29-2013, 09:38 PM
  #148
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So what if, instead of firing Gulutzan, Nieuwendyk gave him a vote of confidence?

*dodges rotten fruit*

Hear me out! Basically, I have a theory that Gully is just so flustered with how crappy his team is, and so desperate to right the ship in a hurry to get into the playoff picture and save his job, that he's just ruining everything completely. If Nieuwy tells him instead that his job is safe, and not to worry about making the playoffs, to just develop our prospects, keep games close even if they're losses, and generally make the most out of this season from a developmental standpoint (landing Jones wouldn't be too bad) then it might fix many of our problems with him. He'll play our young prospects, if they suck whatever, they'll learn, or maybe the won't, but at least they're playing and not watching. He won't ride Kari, Bachs will show the league what he's made of, maybe build some trade value.

Basically tldr etc if they eliminate the pressure to win, they could potentially salvage what looks to be a pretty hopeless season.
I don't know if Gaglardi is going to want to take up the 3rd year option on him- vote of confidence or otherwise.

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01-29-2013, 09:40 PM
  #149
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If Gulutzan is gone there is no way JN survives. You can only can so many coaches before your judgement becomes a problem.

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01-29-2013, 09:41 PM
  #150
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If Gulutzan is gone there is no way JN survives. You can only can so many coaches before your judgement becomes a problem.
Letting his contract expire and moving on without picking up the 3rd year option isn't exactly "canning."

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