I've been a leafs fan watching this team loss after loss and keep watching regardless of the inevitable outcome. As all of you are well aware its been almost 10 years now since they last made the playoffs, and around 4 years since they have even had a sniff of being in contention late in the season to make the playoffs. Yes, we have gotten rid of all the players in the JFJ era and have no existing leafs that have been on the team for longer then 4 seasons. The fact of the matter is that the current players on the leafs have been part of a losing culture and have been poisoned by this. Players regress in Toronto (to the exception of a couple like Lupul) and the effect of a losing poisoned team does wonders on that regression. Toronto has started to be known as a goalie and prospect killer with goalies like Raycroft [albeit he was awful in his last year in Boston] Toskala...etc and prospects like Schenn, Pogge, Tlusty, Steen Colaiacavo. Raycroft, Toskala, Pogge are all out of the league and Steen, Tlusty, Colaiacavo (who were traded for peanuts) have all become very solid NHL players.
I know none of this is stuff is stuff that you have not heard before but it's just outlining the frustration of this franchise. Young players are bad on the leafs because we rush and development them terribly, leave the franchise and become good NHLers. Burke's flawed model of rebuilding this team through trade and lousy free agent signings, was, flawed. With a new GM who doesn't have insane principles and ridiculous stubbornness it is time to start of with a clean slate and whip this roster.
Kessel, Lupul (when healthy), Grabovski, MacArthur, Gunnarsson, Phaneuf are the main 6 guys who could get you some serious value. I'm not gonna throw around some trade proposals on value but it's somewhat undebatable that those above players mentioned could bring in a, large, handful of first, second round draft picks and prospects. The only chance this franchise has of rebuilding is getting rid of the losers, and brining in young talent that has not learned to only lose.
I don't think many Leaf fans are patient enough to go through another 5 year rebuild (myself included). I would maybe consider moving Phaneuf (depending on the return), but overall I think there is a decent mix of young skilled players with room to develop, prospects, and we still have our 1st and 2nd round draft picks.
You mean... we haven't been watching the smoldering scraps of an explosion for the past decade? What is there to blow up? We have nothing to blow up. We should maybe try... putting something together. Like you know, an adult men's ice hockey team.
I don't think many Leaf fans are patient enough to go through another 5 year rebuild (myself included). I would maybe consider moving Phaneuf (depending on the return), but overall I think there is a decent mix of young skilled players with room to develop, prospects, and we still have our 1st and 2nd round draft picks.
Is there a more patient fanbase in the NHL? I don't think so. We've been the laughing stock of the NHL for almost a decade now. There's no relief in sight. The arena is still packed. Ratings are through the roof.
Also Phaneuf should not be moved under any circumstance.
I'm open to trading Phaneuf or possibly a couple others, but hitting the reset button is not needed. We need a good goalie and a #1 centre and they'll be back in the playoffs.
I wouuld have traded lupul before Kessel. Lupul is older and more questionable, where as Kessel is a proven goal scorer. Only 2-3 players from each draft will be able to put up Kessels #'s. So if they did trade Kessel for picks it would have to be for a high pick as though have a higher chance of getting good #'s (duh). Even then, 3rd and 4th overalls are not guartneed to get Kessel #'s.
Lupul on the other hand is tradeable and his value is at an all time high.
Leafs do not have to blow it up as they have older players that can bring them good players in a trade.
I dont think they should blow it up necesarilly... But they should be listening to deals on there vets not trying to acquire a goalie who is almost out of his prime signed for the next decade. Dont bring him thinking you can fix roberto...Putting him in front of a crappier defense with a ton more pressure isnt going to fix him. You cant fix getting old unless your Barry Bonds.
Watching Reimer i actually think he is pretty good, let him develop.
Even though everybody hates him Luongo is still a good goalie, and he will be for a couple more years still. He'll be the first legitimate no.1 they've had since CuJo and he'll probably get them into the playoffs for a couple years.
Would a Maple Leaf fan think getting to the playoffs a waste of assets at this point?They instantly become respectable instead of the laughing stock everybody believes they are now. Even if it's the 8th place it's a whole lot better then they have been the past decade. Just having a decent goalie does a hell of a lot. He'll be good for all the young goalies they have in the system too.
I'm interested in building a legitimately competitive team, not selling away the future for short term failure like what got the Leafs into this mess in the first place.
Our first round picks from 2008-2012 have landed us
James Van Riemsdyk
Nazem Kadri
Phil Kessel
Morgan Rielly
To be honest, that is a pretty good haul. Part of me wants to deal Kessel for a young player + 1st rounder, but another part of me realizes that it has been 5 games.
I've been a leafs fan watching this team loss after loss and keep watching regardless of the inevitable outcome. As all of you are well aware its been almost 10 years now since they last made the playoffs, and around 4 years since they have even had a sniff of being in contention late in the season to make the playoffs. Yes, we have gotten rid of all the players in the JFJ era and have no existing leafs that have been on the team for longer then 4 seasons. The fact of the matter is that the current players on the leafs have been part of a losing culture and have been poisoned by this. Players regress in Toronto (to the exception of a couple like Lupul) and the effect of a losing poisoned team does wonders on that regression. Toronto has started to be known as a goalie and prospect killer with goalies like Raycroft [albeit he was awful in his last year in Boston] Toskala...etc and prospects like Schenn, Pogge, Tlusty, Steen Colaiacavo. Raycroft, Toskala, Pogge are all out of the league and Steen, Tlusty, Colaiacavo (who were traded for peanuts) have all become very solid NHL players.
I know none of this is stuff is stuff that you have not heard before but it's just outlining the frustration of this franchise. Young players are bad on the leafs because we rush and development them terribly, leave the franchise and become good NHLers. Burke's flawed model of rebuilding this team through trade and lousy free agent signings, was, flawed. With a new GM who doesn't have insane principles and ridiculous stubbornness it is time to start of with a clean slate and whip this roster.
Kessel, Lupul (when healthy), Grabovski, MacArthur, Gunnarsson, Phaneuf are the main 6 guys who could get you some serious value. I'm not gonna throw around some trade proposals on value but it's somewhat undebatable that those above players mentioned could bring in a, large, handful of first, second round draft picks and prospects. The only chance this franchise has of rebuilding is getting rid of the losers, and brining in young talent that has not learned to only lose.
Its not about "getting rid of the losers". The above players for the most part are pieces. The problem is the Leafs need a true rebuild. Top 5 draft picks or bust. If it means trading away vets to get picks and prospects then do so. Remember this is the same team that traded Tuuka Rask for a bag of pucks. Getting Kessel when you need a youngster like Sequin and Hamilton bad.
Honestly, I think the rebuild starts with Rielly. He's what a solid piece of a young team should have.
Gardiner is also one to continue to develop and should safely pan out as good top 4 D and 1st unit PP guy.
Kadri should have been traded a year or so ago based on the hype placed on him by the Toronto media, basically because I really don't believe he'll pan out to be near as good as he's said to be, and I think his stock will be dropping the more he plays on the big club. A 2nd line winger or 3rd line centre is his ceiling to me, and I think the team could get more for him than that in a trade, but it's gotta be soon.
Kessel could be resigned for another few years, but I fear the contract he'll be given and how it'll affect his trade value. He's young enough that it's probably the best idea to hold onto him as part of the rebuild too though.
Phaneuf absolutely needs to be traded while he has some credibility and value left, because he may or may not be captain material, but definitely not on a winning team.
Grabo's the only real top 6 guy I have any confidence in, and he should be held onto because you have to have players to play now, too right?
I think JVR will pan out to be pretty good. Him and Grabs should be the top two centres for the team in the short term, and JVR long-term. I know JVR is a winger, but he definitely has potential to be a centreman, and I think the team is looking at him to be one. I may be way off base on this one, but it's what I see.
But that's just me, of course. Long story short, it's time to start stockpiling picks, and giving some of the top Marlies regular time on the big club to give them some on-the-job training. Looks like they're starting to do that, or will be doing it soon, but this season and/or next should be the biggest steps in their transition.
What exactly is there to blow up? They're playing a lot of young guys and are seeing what they have. They're still trying to establish a solid core going forward. When I think of blowing it up I think of teams that have had good teams that couldn't get over the hump and realize it's time to start over (maybe say San Jose or Washington). When I look at the Leafs I see a team dealing with some asset management issues and a team still trying to find their way. They have some good pieces but are still a little way away from having that core in which you want them to blow up. They can't blow up what they don't have. What they do need is a reevaluation of the kind of team they want to be.
Kessel trade set their franchise back 4 years, haven't gotten better with him, and lost 2 prime assets +the capspace to sign him, have gone nowhere. their future would be brighter with Seguin+Hamilton and likely finishing lower in the standings in the process.
and now he'll probably walk as a free agent, and the leafs will have gotten zero out of the move
Our first round picks from 2008-2012 have landed us
James Van Riemsdyk
Nazem Kadri
Phil Kessel
Morgan Rielly
To be honest, that is a pretty good haul. Part of me wants to deal Kessel for a young player + 1st rounder, but another part of me realizes that it has been 5 games.
Brian Burke basically set back the club by 5 years.
Yep. The Leafs are in the exact same situation they were when he got here. Burke's years here were effectively franchise purgatory (well, worse than that because the Leafs weren't just useless to themselves, they actively improved a rival, thus handicapping themselves even further).
It genuinely makes me angry to know that the Kessel trade with allowed to happen, from a corporate standpoint. I will never understand how Brian Burke was allowed to make that trade. That nobody stepped in and said "we havent made the playoffs in four years here, and were going to give up TWO #1 picks?!"
That trade was the general manager equivalent of showboating. That was Brian Burke just saying "I am going to do something so disgustingly risky, just because I can. Because I got total control, and I'm going to show the hockey world my big brass balls"
The day this team finished second last in 2010 Brian Burke needed to be fired (he shoulda been fired when he even suggested the deal). It was the only acceptable solution when you find yourself with a GM who clearly has not got the slightest ****ing clue what kind of team he has. It wouldn't have undone the trade, but it would have cut our losses of a bad GM.
Yes, and so would the majority of Leaf fans. So what's your point? Kessel is the better player than either one of Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton at this point as he was one of the point leaders in 11/12 with hitting 37G (6th in the league/4 years 30G+ in a row) and 82pts(6th in the league).
There is a very good chance that Seguin is never able to match Kessel's offensive peak of 6th leaguewide in both goals and assists -- especially not playing under Julien's stifling defensive system, which seems to be here to stay in Boston. The pedigree of Hamilton is what really tips the scale in favour of Boston and really should have never been included in this trade. I'm a pro-Burke guy and I think this misstep along with the public scrutiny and the team's failures that ensued is what truly cost the guy his job. Burke evaluated the 09/10 Leafs roster to be a playoff contending squad; one whom likely finishes on the bubble drafting at roughly the 15th spot. If Boston drafts Derek Forbort (15th overall in 2010) and J.T. Miller (15th overall in 2011) would anyone ever mention the trade?
In all honesty, if the worst part of that list from 2008-2012 is that we have a PPG goal scoring top line winger instead of a young Top 6 center and top 4 D, it really isn't that bad.. We could be the Habs for example.. Traded a top pairing defenseman for SCOTT GOMEZ
