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Old
01-28-2013, 01:20 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Bunk Moreland View Post
While the arena issue has been looming its not the be all, end all.. THE REASON NO ONE SIGNS IS BECAUSE OF FRONT OFFICE/OWNERSHIP INCOMPETENCE.. Ehrhoff didn't reject us because of the arena, he rejected us because when the entire league is front loading contracts to attract free agents Charles Wang is BACK LOADING them combine that with the terrible on ice product and the circus style reputation it's really no wonder players pass on us. Winning solves all and this organization hasn't got a clue how to do anything but stockpile draft picks, pick from the trash and sign awful veterans.
And, most importantly, the team does not inspire confidence in any prospective player in the team being REMOTELY interested in winning, does it?

It's 2013. Summer is here. Look at the draft picks, UFA day opens and do the Isles EVER look like they're trying to win the Stanley Cup?

No, they're showing off their draft picks saying, "one day we won't suck so bad."

It's awe inspiring. Where do I sign....

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01-28-2013, 01:26 PM
  #102
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1) The Isles have a much brighter future than they did four years ago due to the young players in the system. The fact is that prior to the rebuild, the team was getting by with players signed for one year at a time. There was never a reason to believe the future would be better.

2) We need to wait more than 5 games for this.

3 & 4) I would have said this is the year the Isles should be at least challenging for a playoff spot, but that was before the lockout. I think the lockout hurts the Isles more than a lot of other teams (condensed schedule featuring toughest division in hockey, lack of depth, less practice time for the young players to learn). So, I would say next season. The Isles should be a playoff team next year. Nino , maybe Strome or Nelson, Donavan, maybe De Haan should be starting to contribute.

Basically, if the goal is to rebuild through the draft, you have to give at least three draft classes to accomplish that. I don't think you can expect the 2009 and 2010 classes to be contributing yet. It is too early. By next year, I think that starts to change. You should at least see some more players contributing which should allow the Isles to compete. Then within a year or two after that, I would expect to have a core in place which could contend.
1. Having a "brighter future" isn't accomplishing anything. This franchise hasn't achieved anything concrete since the rebuild.

2. The rebuild has been longer for 5 games.

3/4. I know not you-but so many people say "next year"...every single year. Every team had a lockout to deal with-it's just another excuse (on a long list) that we use.

Honestly this rost isn't deep at all-and is very lackluster. Hell we have what 4 or 5 waiver wires on the team opening night? That's inexcusable. Period. This team was never going to compete this year....and barring any miracles wont be competing next year.

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01-28-2013, 01:30 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
And, most importantly, the team does not inspire confidence in any prospective player in the team being REMOTELY interested in winning, does it?

It's 2013. Summer is here. Look at the draft picks, UFA day opens and do the Isles EVER look like they're trying to win the Stanley Cup?

No, they're showing off their draft picks saying, "one day we won't suck so bad."

It's awe inspiring. Where do I sign....
IF Wang actually plans on increasing payroll, we should be able to add quality players even if we get shut out by top UFAs. The trade market is always a good source for bringing in talent, and in an offseason where a lot of teams will be forced to trim payroll fat(some of which will probably be valuable fat), Wang/Snow should have even more options.

We have a lot of talent in our pipeline. We even have a handful of elite talent. Add in another high draft pick(which, as much as it pains me to say it, is probably likely) and there really should be no excuses for not bringing in veterans that can truly help this team.

Even if absolutey zero UFAs are interested in signing here, you'd have to think that Brock Nelson, Matt Donovan and the 5th overall pick in the draft would bring back a pretty good player. Not only is that a very good prospect, a good prospect and a potentially great prospect going away, but they bring virtually zero cap hits. Not to mention 2 out of 3(arguably 3 out of 3 depending on who is drafted) will be NHL ready.

Regardless of whether or not you or anyone would want to trade that kind of package, the point is that this team could bring in proven NHL talent if they really want to.

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01-28-2013, 02:00 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
And, most importantly, the team does not inspire confidence in any prospective player in the team being REMOTELY interested in winning, does it?

It's 2013. Summer is here. Look at the draft picks, UFA day opens and do the Isles EVER look like they're trying to win the Stanley Cup?

No, they're showing off their draft picks saying, "one day we won't suck so bad."

It's awe inspiring. Where do I sign....
Not to mention that this upcoming summer the only fresh Isles's memories the UFA's will have is: Lubo not wanting to come, Nino wanting to leave, beating our team in the season and a fresh lottery pick.

Thats real attractive..

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01-28-2013, 02:07 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Bunk Moreland View Post
Not to mention that this upcoming summer the only fresh Isles's memories the UFA's will have is: Lubo not wanting to come, Nino wanting to leave, beating our team in the season and a fresh lottery pick.

Thats real attractive..
BINGO!

And add in the team looking like it wanted to hit but ran away every chance, the only hits were taps when Byfuglin was more than willing to CLEANLY flatten anyone he wanted to, the Moulson avoiding taking a check and running into Tavares instead of battling the SCORER, our defense being waiver fodder, our tough guys not being used correctly, our scorers not in position or connecting on any passes, RICK DIPIETRO......many selling points to anyone considering a home on Long Island!

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01-28-2013, 02:11 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
IF Wang actually plans on increasing payroll, we should be able to add quality players even if we get shut out by top UFAs. The trade market is always a good source for bringing in talent, and in an offseason where a lot of teams will be forced to trim payroll fat(some of which will probably be valuable fat), Wang/Snow should have even more options.

We have a lot of talent in our pipeline. We even have a handful of elite talent. Add in another high draft pick(which, as much as it pains me to say it, is probably likely) and there really should be no excuses for not bringing in veterans that can truly help this team.

Even if absolutey zero UFAs are interested in signing here, you'd have to think that Brock Nelson, Matt Donovan and the 5th overall pick in the draft would bring back a pretty good player. Not only is that a very good prospect, a good prospect and a potentially great prospect going away, but they bring virtually zero cap hits. Not to mention 2 out of 3(arguably 3 out of 3 depending on who is drafted) will be NHL ready.

Regardless of whether or not you or anyone would want to trade that kind of package, the point is that this team could bring in proven NHL talent if they really want to.
I agree with this: We can trade (overpay with our reputation) to get a key guy in who can play very well and fit, but it doesn't change the fact that we don't play hockey well by design when our coaching has turned atrocious and our players refuse to battle as a method.

This roster can win hockey games.

We could make this roster better by addition.

But we can't make them play hockey better just by adding names. Right now, Ullstrom and Nabby look like the only two guys who match the opponents' intensity. That's not something a player transaction or two can fix.

That runs much, much deeper.

Time to call Nolan. (the only coach of that ilk who would pick up the phone and not order a pizza when Garth was on the other end)

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01-28-2013, 02:12 PM
  #107
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Old
01-28-2013, 04:02 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Bunk Moreland View Post
While the arena issue has been looming its not the be all, end all.. THE REASON NO ONE SIGNS IS BECAUSE OF FRONT OFFICE/OWNERSHIP INCOMPETENCE.. Ehrhoff didn't reject us because of the arena, he rejected us because when the entire league is front loading contracts to attract free agents Charles Wang is BACK LOADING them combine that with the terrible on ice product and the circus style reputation it's really no wonder players pass on us. Winning solves all and this organization hasn't got a clue how to do anything but stockpile draft picks, pick from the trash and sign awful veterans.


So this discussion comes to a fitting and rightful end. This resally isn't rocket science folks.

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01-28-2013, 04:28 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
IF Wang actually plans on increasing payroll, we should be able to add quality players even if we get shut out by top UFAs. The trade market is always a good source for bringing in talent, and in an offseason where a lot of teams will be forced to trim payroll fat(some of which will probably be valuable fat), Wang/Snow should have even more options.

We have a lot of talent in our pipeline. We even have a handful of elite talent. Add in another high draft pick(which, as much as it pains me to say it, is probably likely) and there really should be no excuses for not bringing in veterans that can truly help this team.

Even if absolutey zero UFAs are interested in signing here, you'd have to think that Brock Nelson, Matt Donovan and the 5th overall pick in the draft would bring back a pretty good player. Not only is that a very good prospect, a good prospect and a potentially great prospect going away, but they bring virtually zero cap hits. Not to mention 2 out of 3(arguably 3 out of 3 depending on who is drafted) will be NHL ready.

Regardless of whether or not you or anyone would want to trade that kind of package, the point is that this team could bring in proven NHL talent if they really want to.
This is going to be the key this offseason. Not only will teams dump some quality players, but a lot of teams will be unable to bring in a significant UFA. Teams like the Rangers, Philly, Vancouver, Boston, Chicago, Montreal etc are going to have a hard enough time getting their own RFAs under the cap, let alone bringing in new players.

Players looking for a big payday won't have many options. If Wang is willing to spend, we should be able to bring in some players. The only problem is the UFA market is forward heavy, so Garth may have to sign a forward then trade some of our lower priced players/prospects to improve the D. Since the opportunities for improvement will be there this offseason, the team's performance next season should be the test for Snow.

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01-28-2013, 05:16 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
I agree with this: We can trade (overpay with our reputation) to get a key guy in who can play very well and fit, but it doesn't change the fact that we don't play hockey well by design when our coaching has turned atrocious and our players refuse to battle as a method.

This roster can win hockey games.

We could make this roster better by addition.

But we can't make them play hockey better just by adding names. Right now, Ullstrom and Nabby look like the only two guys who match the opponents' intensity. That's not something a player transaction or two can fix.

That runs much, much deeper.

Time to call Nolan. (the only coach of that ilk who would pick up the phone and not order a pizza when Garth was on the other end)
I heard that Scott "Gorton" is available.

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01-28-2013, 05:31 PM
  #111
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One interesting note: IMO it's almost a guarantee that Chicago will have to trade off one of their big contracts next offseason. That group is Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook. That said, the only player in that group who does not have some sort of NTC is Marian Hossa.

Hossa has a cap hit of $5.275M that is really long, doesn't end until 2021, but he would no doubt be a gigantic addition. No idea what the asking price would be for Chicago, but don't be surprised to see a few guys at that kind of level available in the offseason.

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01-28-2013, 06:01 PM
  #112
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you sit by too many of those people who yell "shooooooot" when the point men have no lane/angle, dont you.
LOL that i do, either that or 10 yr olds or a real obnoxious fat lady rags fan. i cant even remember all the idiotic things iv heard at games

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01-28-2013, 06:04 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
One interesting note: IMO it's almost a guarantee that Chicago will have to trade off one of their big contracts next offseason. That group is Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook. That said, the only player in that group who does not have some sort of NTC is Marian Hossa.

Hossa has a cap hit of $5.275M that is really long, doesn't end until 2021, but he would no doubt be a gigantic addition. No idea what the asking price would be for Chicago, but don't be surprised to see a few guys at that kind of level available in the offseason.
I think that package begins with no less than a 1st. Hossa is a more offensive polished Nielsen in my opinion.

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01-28-2013, 06:05 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
One interesting note: IMO it's almost a guarantee that Chicago will have to trade off one of their big contracts next offseason. That group is Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook. That said, the only player in that group who does not have some sort of NTC is Marian Hossa.

Hossa has a cap hit of $5.275M that is really long, doesn't end until 2021, but he would no doubt be a gigantic addition. No idea what the asking price would be for Chicago, but don't be surprised to see a few guys at that kind of level available in the offseason.
We've been down that road before...

Hossa....what would it take?
Perhaps we need to think of it this way, "Who will he replace?"
He's a wing...so...perhaps Snow could trade Nino since he wants to go anyway. (I'm sure we'll have to throw in a tad bit more for Hossa than just Nino)

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01-28-2013, 06:16 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
One interesting note: IMO it's almost a guarantee that Chicago will have to trade off one of their big contracts next offseason. That group is Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook. That said, the only player in that group who does not have some sort of NTC is Marian Hossa.

Hossa has a cap hit of $5.275M that is really long, doesn't end until 2021, but he would no doubt be a gigantic addition. No idea what the asking price would be for Chicago, but don't be surprised to see a few guys at that kind of level available in the offseason.
He's 34 already and his contract ends when he's 42. About two years in we're going to wish we didn't have him and whatever we gave up we'll wish we had back. Similar to Viz, regardless of whether he reports or not; by next offseason we're going to wish we had that 2nd rounder back.

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01-28-2013, 06:39 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by IslesNorway View Post
A team spending close to the cap will obviously have an advantage over one that struggles to reach the floor. That is pretty obvious. But which ever you look at it, the problem still remains: NO BIG FREE AGENT WOULD SIGN WITH THE ISLANDERS!!

There is little point in dreaming of the Suter's or Parise's of this world or any other big name. Garth tried many times over and never succeeded and the way some people always say "sign him" or "trade for him" it seems as if they think they're at the supermarket picking and choosing what to get. It would be easy for Snow to empty the cupboard for immediate help but there's a reason he won't do that.

In a few years the Isles will be closer to the cap than we'd like to acknowledge because in a few years Moulson, Hamonic, Amac and others will be in for big paydays.
MM is getting 3.1 so i don't know if he will be on the receiving end of a huge pay increase. Hammonic is a RFA after the season and making 875k he is up for a big raise and Amac has 1 more year at 500k and then he would be up for a huge raise also. My point was simply to say if you don't want to part with the money do not expect sellouts and huge sales on the NHL website for jerseys etc. You have to spend money to make money. I also understand that SMG has a stranglehold over concessions at the arena but he still makes money on tickets and concessions outside NVMC. Point of this is i can't really blame Snow because he does not control the spending that's Wang prerogative (no correlation to Bobby Brown)

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01-28-2013, 07:03 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by original islander View Post
He's 34 already and his contract ends when he's 42. About two years in we're going to wish we didn't have him and whatever we gave up we'll wish we had back. Similar to Viz, regardless of whether he reports or not; by next offseason we're going to wish we had that 2nd rounder back.
Which is part of the reason why I think the cost won't be too extreme. Unless they are able to trade someone else, I don't know A) what other teams could actually afford to add a salary like Hossa's, and B) how many of those teams would actually be interested in taking on the rest of that contract.

Who knows how it will play out, but I'd imagine that Hossa and Keith are probably the two contracts that Chicago will be trying to get rid of next offseason.

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01-28-2013, 07:22 PM
  #118
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Which is part of the reason why I think the cost won't be too extreme. Unless they are able to trade someone else, I don't know A) what other teams could actually afford to add a salary like Hossa's, and B) how many of those teams would actually be interested in taking on the rest of that contract.

Who knows how it will play out, but I'd imagine that Hossa and Keith are probably the two contracts that Chicago will be trying to get rid of next offseason.
Good point. If we can get him and not give up any first round picks, he would be a big help for tutoring our young forwards.

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01-28-2013, 09:16 PM
  #119
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charles wang is a hero

nobody is going to be praising him for hiring Snow. it was and is a bad move.
an experienced GM would have us in a better position after 6 years. snow was hired because snow won't offer any resistance to the financial restraints wang has placed on the team. thats it plain and simple.

yeah wang was a godsend when he bought the team and i won't blame him for pinching pennies after losing so much money for so many years, but he still doesn't know hockey and hasn't learned a thing about it. full marks to him for trying to keep the team in nassau and even more praise for the brooklyn move, but if brooklyn gives us some cash flow and the ability to attract real players, they he needs to ax snow and hand the reigns to a hockey guy and then butt out and let us have a chance to be great again
Right because there are GM's all over the league bucking against their employers who don't want to spend too much. My God where do people come up with these things?

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01-28-2013, 09:20 PM
  #120
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LOL that i do, either that or 10 yr olds or a real obnoxious fat lady rags fan. i cant even remember all the idiotic things iv heard at games
How about, "Skate faster!" or "We would have won that game if we scored more goals than them"....

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01-28-2013, 09:23 PM
  #121
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MM is getting 3.1 so i don't know if he will be on the receiving end of a huge pay increase. Hammonic is a RFA after the season and making 875k he is up for a big raise and Amac has 1 more year at 500k and then he would be up for a huge raise also. My point was simply to say if you don't want to part with the money do not expect sellouts and huge sales on the NHL website for jerseys etc. You have to spend money to make money. I also understand that SMG has a stranglehold over concessions at the arena but he still makes money on tickets and concessions outside NVMC. Point of this is i can't really blame Snow because he does not control the spending that's Wang prerogative (no correlation to Bobby Brown)
What are huge raises? I really don't see AMac getting that much of a bump in salary...Hamonic maybe.

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01-28-2013, 09:32 PM
  #122
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How about, "Skate faster!" or "We would have won that game if we scored more goals than them"....
I remember going to a game a while ago and I believe it was Jason Blake on the PK, he skated into the opposing zone, circled around a few times and threw the puck back to whoever was on defense in our zone to kill more time. Some guy behind me started screaming "YOU IDIOT!!!! YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY!!!!"

It ended up being some suit. Wasn't surprised.

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01-28-2013, 09:35 PM
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I remember going to a game a while ago and I believe it was Jason Blake on the PK, he skated into the opposing zone, circled around a few times and threw the puck back to whoever was on defense in our zone to kill more time. Some guy behind me started screaming "YOU IDIOT!!!! YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY!!!!"

It ended up being some suit. Wasn't surprised.
Lol, par for the course. Betcha it happens even more at Rags games....

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01-28-2013, 09:46 PM
  #124
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What are huge raises? I really don't see AMac getting that much of a bump in salary...Hamonic maybe.
Hammonic is making 875k so you must figure at least 3mil and Amac is at 500k so even if he gets 2mil that's still 3.625 more then there making now and those numbers might even be considered low by today's standards.

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01-28-2013, 10:09 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by IslesNorway View Post
A team spending close to the cap will obviously have an advantage over one that struggles to reach the floor. That is pretty obvious. But which ever you look at it, the problem still remains: NO BIG FREE AGENT WOULD SIGN WITH THE ISLANDERS!!

There is little point in dreaming of the Suter's or Parise's of this world or any other big name. Garth tried many times over and never succeeded and the way some people always say "sign him" or "trade for him" it seems as if they think they're at the supermarket picking and choosing what to get. It would be easy for Snow to empty the cupboard for immediate help but there's a reason he won't do that.

In a few years the Isles will be closer to the cap than we'd like to acknowledge because in a few years Moulson, Hamonic, Amac and others will be in for big paydays.
Whoa boss, trying to sign a free agent may be hard because everyone knew we were in a convenient rebuild that just so happened to coincide with it being in Wang's best interests to save money. That is part of the reason we hired a GM with no experience, coaches with very little experience, don't have a director of scouting or hardly any support staff, etc. But TRADING for a good player, that has always been available and the only reason we haven't exercised that option (with the Wiz and the Viz the rare exceptions) is because Wang wanted to save money. No other reason, though it was masked with one excuse after another...

We haven't traded for anyone of real value when we have needed to because Wang hasn't wanted to spend much over the cap.

So let's be completely honest in these discussions. TRADING is the one way you get around all that "Oh, I don't want to sign with you" bellyaching because the player has zero choice but to report or get tolled.

Not getting this club some better support players to help Tavares and the defense is a crime against us and guys like Tavares, by Wang. The truth is the money just those two bodies would cost would come back to him in playoff revenues. It would also be an investment to further inflate the value of his current assets like John and Travis, but that is forward thinking.

And I wish you guys would stop perpetuating the fictitious myth that Wang is holding back bank now to help pay for payroll later when the kids get to their next contract round. The salary cap defines how much you can and can't spend every year. It isn't like Chuck is going to be able to spend the amount he saves now, later, pushing him magically above the cap ceiling. No, he will still have a ceiling. And with the way he is hurting the development of the kids by denying them a real support cast better than geriatric patients, walking emergency room visits, kids still in diapers, etc., he won't have to worry about paying too much later. Bailey has already been damaged by the rush up and bad support. Okposo as well, and the book is still open on Nino.

No, being cheap hurts us and the players. The only person who it does help is Wang. I hope that finally changes now that he has his arena deal in place and a solid reason to expect increased revenues, along with revenue sharing starting this year. If he hasn't let Snow acquire better talent by August 30th you can take it to the bank he doesn't give a toot about the club's kids and is happy sucking us dry once his income turns black once they are in Brooklyn.


Last edited by A Pointed Stick: 01-28-2013 at 10:17 PM.
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