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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Mario Lemieux vs Bobby Orr?

View Poll Results: Who was the better player?
Mario Lemieux 52 27.23%
Bobby Orr 139 72.77%
Voters: 191. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-26-2013, 10:07 PM
  #51
85highlander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyRabbit View Post
I could make the exact same argument for Coffey.
You can make the argument but can you show the evidence...?

Here is Orr doing what he did on a regular basis. He could and would get back, and start the rush all over again. It'd be nice to see some footage of Coffey doing the same...


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Old
01-26-2013, 11:53 PM
  #52
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I think most things in life depend on how we WANT to see them as opposed to how they really are.

Lemeuix was not as good as Gretzky. Period. There were times where he was COMPARABLE to Gretzky. There were even some nights he was even BETTER than Gretzky.

But the guy never broke even ONE of the 64 official records Gretzky owns. Not even one.

He came CLOSEST to breaking a couple of them, but when you actually read this post, step back and let it sink in.

We are talking about a guy who was in the same LEAGUE as Gretzky most days , and was even his equal on some nights . But even after all that, he PALES in his attempts to break any of the guys records.

ANY of them.

Bobby Orr is a much better argument against Lemiuex for 2nd best ever.

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01-26-2013, 11:58 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Orr was the more dominant force in his era. If two guys with identical builds and skillsets were in the 2013 draft, I'd pick the Lemieux clone (assuming he doesn't come with a congenital back defect). Orr is a very strange case... he played a style which is difficult to translate to today's game, an unprecedented style in league in the midst of an awkward growth spurt. I see Orr play and I see things that won't work anymore, and frankly I see a less capable player than Lemieux. I mean holy jesus, these guys wouldn't know what to against a huge machine like Lemieux and he'd turn the goalies inside out with his reach effortlessly. You can't abuse modern players like Orr was doing to 70s slugs.

I'm not knocking Orr. He has the insane skills and the smarts and the grit to be the best player now, too, he'd adapt to a new environment. And I'm not forgetting the equipment, training and medical factors. But I can't be sure of precisely how effective the adjustments would be and how much his offensive dominance would be mitigated. I have no idea how a d-man of any skill level could challenge for an Art Ross today, the openings aren't there. I have no doubt Lemieux would drop right in and shred the league exactly as he always could.

Orr used to be so much faster than everybody else, but it wouldn't be like that now, even if he was the fastest player in the league you still wouldn't see the kind of stuff he used to pull off, plays that just aren't feasible now. Whereas Lemieux's skill and size is something still totally unprecedented and unrivaled by anyone then or now. What tactical evolutions can there be to take away from a guy with a seriously godlike size/skill element, short of loading all the bluelines with Zdeno Charas? He'd just do what he always did, even the big Shea Webers of the world wouldn't be able to reach the puck.

I do think a healthy Lemieux is the ultimate, era-proof hockey player
Pretty strong argument here and I tend to agree with most of it.

The only thing about Lemieux is that he wasn't always the best 5 on 5 player and I wonder how much of his style of play would be tolerated, or if it would translate into winning.

It's always extremely tricky when one talks about how player A might translate from one era to another IMO and it's easier to put each players accomplishments in context of their own era.

I'm more of a career guy but these 2 come really close as Orr had more impact on his team actually winning than Mario did IMO.

I'm taking Orr here.

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01-27-2013, 01:35 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Lemieux was not very close to Gretzky's peak - Orr and Gretzky had a similar peak.

1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
Well he definitely was close to Gretzky's peak.
Adjusted stats give them 5 point difference in the best season in Hockey-Reference.com
170 to Gretzky and 165 to Lemieux. I remember them being relatively close in their peak. Gretzky had the longer peak and accomplished more but when both were on their best behavior they were close. So was Orr.

I think Gretzky had the best peak followed by Orr then Lemieux. But is am not going to pretend that they were not close.

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01-27-2013, 07:10 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg View Post
Ah, the old "he scores a ton of points so he's not very good defensively" argument against offensive defensemen.

Orr was an extremely strong skater, and was able to get back quickly after joining the offense. Just because he played up doesn't mean it was impossible for him to get back.
Why, is that what someone on this board who've never seen him play told you?

Orr was caught up ice all the freaking time.

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01-27-2013, 09:24 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Why, is that what someone on this board who've never seen him play told you?

Orr was caught up ice all the freaking time.
People seem to forget this (or arguably were blind to it even when he played). The highlight reels show him out skating the California Golden Seal borrowed from some AHL team from two full strides behind and somehow that got hyped into "he-is-so -good-he-can-still-get back-to-play-defence-like-having-an-extra-forward-with-no-repurcussions-whatsoever" when in fact he was often behind the other team's net with no chance of getting back.

Orr was arguably the most talented player to play the game but he did not play defence as well as, say, Doug Harvey, who played a much more balanced game quarterbacking Montreal, and was stronger in his own end. Orr did see the ice probably better than anyone but Gretzky and was as talented physically as Lemieux, but he played on a team that was better at demolishing opponents than winning tight playoff series. Credit to Orr/Esposito's Bruins winning 2 Stanley Cups, but most would agree they were expected to accomplish more.

In fairness to Orr he was a dominant talent in an era of rapid expansion and he nor probably anyone else knew the limits of his game. He could very well have been the best ever if his knees had held up and his game fully matured (think 1976 Canada Cup but on two healthy knees) but at his peak his all around game had not developed.

Who is the better all time player? Who would you want on your team? These are two different questions. The first is debatable. For the second question I would take Orr in a heartbeat if I could not have them both. He was an incredibly fierce competitor on top of all the talent.


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01-27-2013, 10:36 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
I think most things in life depend on how we WANT to see them as opposed to how they really are.

Lemeuix was not as good as Gretzky. Period. There were times where he was COMPARABLE to Gretzky. There were even some nights he was even BETTER than Gretzky.

But the guy never broke even ONE of the 64 official records Gretzky owns. Not even one.

He came CLOSEST to breaking a couple of them, but when you actually read this post, step back and let it sink in.

We are talking about a guy who was in the same LEAGUE as Gretzky most days , and was even his equal on some nights . But even after all that, he PALES in his attempts to break any of the guys records.

ANY of them.

Bobby Orr is a much better argument against Lemiuex for 2nd best ever.
Some nights? Yes i guess you could say that, but when he was at his best he was at least equal to Gretzkys best. We need not forget the circumstances here. We cant count full seasons when looking Marios best although 1988-89 is pretty much up there with Gretzkys best seasons, adjusted and if you wish also taking linemates into account. There were times though when Mario was even better than in 1988-89.

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01-27-2013, 10:52 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Why, is that what someone on this board who've never seen him play told you?

Orr was caught up ice all the freaking time.
That isn't anywhere near accurate.

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01-27-2013, 11:37 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Pretty strong argument here and I tend to agree with most of it.

The only thing about Lemieux is that he wasn't always the best 5 on 5 player and I wonder how much of his style of play would be tolerated, or if it would translate into winning.

It's always extremely tricky when one talks about how player A might translate from one era to another IMO and it's easier to put each players accomplishments in context of their own era.

I'm more of a career guy but these 2 come really close as Orr had more impact on his team actually winning than Mario did IMO.

I'm taking Orr here.
Lemieux scored 405 even strength goals in his career. 236 on the PP and 49 shorthanded. He led the NHL in overall goals three times, even strength once, powerplay twice, and shorthanded three times. There was never a situation when Mario Lemieux was NOT a threat to score a goal. Ever.

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01-27-2013, 11:45 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
In 1995-96 his first half of the season was also absolutely sensational even for his standards, i dont know what happened during the second half but he did miss the World Cup a full summer after that and then after the season retired becouse "he had lost a step". Maybe he simply the last five seasons or whatever just could'nt play a full schedule, as the cancer treatment obviously gave him some rest and then he took the whole 94-95 season off and as i said put on a show that fall.
Also, the 1991 playoffs was good but probably even better in 1992, both hindered by major injuries.
For the 1995-'96 season I think we tend to forget that he was also dominant in the second half of the season, not just the first. Traditionally the second half of the season is a little tighter and scoring will drop ever so slightly with the playoff races heating up, so his drop in production in the second half isn't bad at all.

1995-'96 season:
October-December - 86 points in 32 games (2.68 PPG)
January-April - 75 points in 38 games (1.97 PPG)

Pretty incredible considering the timeframe that Mario was "slowing down" he averaged two points a game still.

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01-27-2013, 02:01 PM
  #61
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Lemieux is proof that there can be another Gretzky. Lemieux and Gretzky are in the same league.

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01-27-2013, 05:02 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post

The only thing about Lemieux is that he wasn't always the best 5 on 5 player and I wonder how much of his style of play would be tolerated, or if it would translate into winning.
Fair point, I think he didn't have Gretzky's hustle or even defensive responsibility, never mind Orr's. But coming back to era adjustments... always tricky but in this I'm fairly certain today he would be brought through a rigorous system that would instill this kind of thing in him more. I doubt he'd be a smoker, that's a good start right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardy
I'm more of a career guy but these 2 come really close as Orr had more impact on his team actually winning than Mario did IMO.
.
I don't know about that. Same amount of Cups, same amount of Smythes. And I don't see either of them really carrying their powerhouse teams to a greater extent than the other... Pens were a force without Lemieux, Bruins were a force without Orr (even jumping 20 points in the standings the year he played 10 games). Orr even had another Hart winner ahead of him on every shift and I don't think he ever had to carry a team like Lemieux had to do for a few years.

I think Lemieux might even be a MORE valuable player today than he was when he played... defense is better but there's less clutching and grabbing and who would benefit from this more than a guy that you had to climb onto to stop. And the shootout plays to his strengths more than anybody else's... he'd be damn near automatic, and every extra point is huge these days so that's a big deal.

So yeah, I'm fine with Orr being ranked ahead of Lemieux all-time, the results are there, they can't be taken away no matter how you analyze context. I think Lemieux was the better hockey player though and that's who I'd take on my team.

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01-28-2013, 12:10 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yeah, but Nicholls played with Gretzky and Lemieux with Rob Brown and Dan Quinn. Mario did outscore the Great One by 31 points and in goals 32.
HOFer Paul Coffey was also on that Pens team.

WRT to points: Lemieux had 18.4 % more points than the next highest total from Gretzky.

Meanwhile, Orr had 21.2 % more points than the next highest total from Esposito.

As a defenseman.

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01-28-2013, 12:53 PM
  #64
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HOFer Paul Coffey was also on that Pens team.
Definetely more biased than me i see.

Nicholls: Gretzky, Robitaille, Duchesne, Tonelli, Taylor.
Lemieux: Coffey, Brown, Quinn, Errey.

Where is this close? You do know what kind of producer Bernie Nicholls really was dont you?

Quote:
WRT to points: Lemieux had 18.4 % more points than the next highest total from Gretzky.

Meanwhile, Orr had 21.2 % more points than the next highest total from Esposito.

As a defenseman.
You cant blame Lemieux for his contemporary Yzerman having a career year offensively. Dont do that.

Fact is that Lemieux had 71+94=165 adjusted that year, Orr had 33+91=124.

The very large amount of adjusted goals for Lemieux i mean make up for the point advantage Orr had considering he was a defenceman. Orr played with great players as well.

And as i said, i'm not exactly sure that 1988-89 is where Le Magnifique played his very best hockey.


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01-28-2013, 01:01 PM
  #65
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Definetely more biased than me i see.

Nicholls: Gretzky, Robitaille, Duchesne, Tonelli, Taylor.
Lemieux: Coffey, Brown, Quinn, Errey.

Where is this close? You do know what kind of producer Bernie Nicholls really was dont you?
Nicholls was a 100+ point man in his own right in the right circumstances. He has become ridiculously underrated on these boards because of his one monster season.

And it is close because of Paul Coffey alone.

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01-28-2013, 01:06 PM
  #66
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Nicholls was a 100+ point man in his own right in the right circumstances. He has become ridiculously underrated on these boards because of his one monster season.

And it is close because of Paul Coffey alone.
At the same time we know that Lemieux was a 2 point plus per game producer, and that Nicholls was a 100 point scorer. Bernie did that in the early eighties as well. Is'nt that odd?

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01-28-2013, 01:16 PM
  #67
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At the same time we know that Lemieux was a 2 point plus per game producer, and that Nicholls was a 100 point scorer. Bernie did that in the early eighties as well. Is'nt that odd?
Not sure what your point is..

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01-28-2013, 02:37 PM
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Not sure what your point is..
You quoted me. You said that it was close becouse that Coffey was with Lemieux. I meant that it obviuosly was'nt close since Nicholls scored 70 goals and 80 assists that season and then continued the year after at a near similar production. Then he got traded and went straight back to true Nicholls production. Obviously it's better to play with Gretzky, Robitaille, Duchesne, Tonelli and Taylor than it is to play with Paul Coffey and scrap.


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01-28-2013, 04:57 PM
  #69
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Fair point, I think he didn't have Gretzky's hustle or even defensive responsibility, never mind Orr's. But coming back to era adjustments... always tricky but in this I'm fairly certain today he would be brought through a rigorous system that would instill this kind of thing in him more. I doubt he'd be a smoker, that's a good start right there.



I don't know about that. Same amount of Cups, same amount of Smythes. And I don't see either of them really carrying their powerhouse teams to a greater extent than the other... Pens were a force without Lemieux, Bruins were a force without Orr (even jumping 20 points in the standings the year he played 10 games). Orr even had another Hart winner ahead of him on every shift and I don't think he ever had to carry a team like Lemieux had to do for a few years.

I think Lemieux might even be a MORE valuable player today than he was when he played... defense is better but there's less clutching and grabbing and who would benefit from this more than a guy that you had to climb onto to stop. And the shootout plays to his strengths more than anybody else's... he'd be damn near automatic, and every extra point is huge these days so that's a big deal.

So yeah, I'm fine with Orr being ranked ahead of Lemieux all-time, the results are there, they can't be taken away no matter how you analyze context. I think Lemieux was the better hockey player though and that's who I'd take on my team.
Gretzky's defensive responsibility?

Not any difference between Gretzky and Mario there.

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01-28-2013, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Definetely more biased than me i see.

Nicholls: Gretzky, Robitaille, Duchesne, Tonelli, Taylor.
Lemieux: Coffey, Brown, Quinn, Errey.

Where is this close? You do know what kind of producer Bernie Nicholls really was dont you?


You cant blame Lemieux for his contemporary Yzerman having a career year offensively. Dont do that.

Fact is that Lemieux had 71+94=165 adjusted that year, Orr had 33+91=124.

The very large amount of adjusted goals for Lemieux i mean make up for the point advantage Orr had considering he was a defenceman. Orr played with great players as well.

And as i said, i'm not exactly sure that 1988-89 is where Le Magnifique played his very best hockey.
Based on adjusted stats, mikita of 1970 would have only put up 111 points had he played in the 1989 season. I find that hard to believe considering he was 3rd in scoring in 1970. Adjusted stats cant translate between two entirely different eras like that. Orr won the hart, art ross, norris and conn smythe that year, he outpeaked mario.

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01-28-2013, 10:53 PM
  #71
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Lemieux scored 405 even strength goals in his career. 236 on the PP and 49 shorthanded. He led the NHL in overall goals three times, even strength once, powerplay twice, and shorthanded three times. There was never a situation when Mario Lemieux was NOT a threat to score a goal. Ever.
Sure Mario could always score goals but he couldn't or wouldn't work enough on preventing them was the 5-5 point.

Even the most talented player of all time, which Mario is IMO, had a major weakness and that weakness might not translate very well across eras or coaches.

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01-28-2013, 11:06 PM
  #72
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Sure Mario could always score goals but he couldn't or wouldn't work enough on preventing them was the 5-5 point.

Even the most talented player of all time, which Mario is IMO, had a major weakness and that weakness might not translate very well across eras or coaches.
Well, for starters unless Mario ran into a knob like Ken Hitchcock there isn't a coach in the free world that would do anything else but let Mario do his thing. Conventional wisdom would tell you that this player will win you more games on his talent alone than the other way around. That isn't to say that there can't be pressure to play responsible defensively either. Bowman ensured Lafleur didn't float around on the ice. But you just simply let a guy like this play his game, regardless of era.

Defensive awareness was not Mario's strength. However, it didn't have to be. It wasn't why he was on the ice in the first place. We saw Malkin last year score 50 goals and 109 points and there were times when he just simply took a shift or a game over. A smart coach lets a player like that do this. Malkin is not Mario either it is worth noting. So I think Mario would translate just fine in today's game.

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01-29-2013, 01:50 AM
  #73
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Based on adjusted stats, mikita of 1970 would have only put up 111 points had he played in the 1989 season. I find that hard to believe considering he was 3rd in scoring in 1970. Adjusted stats cant translate between two entirely different eras like that. Orr won the hart, art ross, norris and conn smythe that year, he outpeaked mario.
You are surprised Mikita scored 111 adjusted points and Le Magnifique scored 165? All righty then... Adjusted stats certainly is'nt perfect , but this is Mario Lemieux around his best we are talking about.

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01-29-2013, 02:15 PM
  #74
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You are surprised Mikita scored 111 adjusted points and Le Magnifique scored 165? All righty then... Adjusted stats certainly is'nt perfect , but this is Mario Lemieux around his best we are talking about.
Actually those stats were adjusted to mario's season, so it would be 111 points for mikita, 1999 for mario. Im not buying mario would outscore a 3rd place finisher by that big of a margin. In 1988 he only outscored savard by 37 points.

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01-29-2013, 03:03 PM
  #75
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Why, is that what someone on this board who've never seen him play told you?

Orr was caught up ice all the freaking time.
This might be one of the most inaccurate things ever said about Orr. He was an incredible at both ends, watch any testimonial, they all say it. Hate the Bruins but don't lie because you do.

You must have been thinking about PK Subban when you made this comment.

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