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Should the Toronto Maple Leafs "Blow it up"?

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01-29-2013, 12:29 AM
  #101
HockeyThoughts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
Our first round picks from 2008-2012 have landed us

James Van Riemsdyk
Nazem Kadri
Phil Kessel
Morgan Rielly

To be honest, that is a pretty good haul. Part of me wants to deal Kessel for a young player + 1st rounder, but another part of me realizes that it has been 5 games.
From the 2008-2012 Draft's in the 1st round you can also add:

James Van Reimsdyk (2nd overall in 2007) --> Acquired through Luke Schenn (5th overall in 2008)
Jake Gardiner (17th overall in 2008)
Joe Colborne (18th overall in 2008)
Nazem Kadri (7th overall in 2009)
Carter Ashton (29th overall in 2009)
Phil Kessel (5th overall in 2006) --> Acquired through Tyler Seguin (2nd overall in 2010) & Dougie Hamilton (9th overall in 2011)
Tyler Biggs (22nd overall in 2011)
Stuart Percy (25th overall in 2011)
Morgan Reilly (5th overall in 2012)

If you're counting at home that's NINE first round picks acquired over the span of 4 seasons.

So tell me again, we're not rebuilding.

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01-29-2013, 12:30 AM
  #102
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Why is anybody talking about Phanuef like he is some kind of tradable asset?!

Best case scenario is Phanuef just leaves when his contract expires after next year. Thankfully Burke isn't around anymore to [mod] affect rational contract negotiations with a mistake prone, 2nd/3rd pairing defender.

Getting rid of Dion as captain will be an important part of rebuilding. Maybe a team with cap space and a big need for defence will give up a few draft picks.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 01-29-2013 at 02:00 AM. Reason: nope
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01-29-2013, 12:31 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
From the 2008-2012 Draft's in the 1st round you can also add:

James Van Reimsdyk (2nd overall in 2007) --> Acquired through Luke Schenn (5th overall in 2008)
Jake Gardiner (17th overall in 2008)
Joe Colborne (18th overall in 2008)
Nazem Kadri (7th overall in 2009)
Carter Ashton (29th overall in 2009)
Phil Kessel (5th overall in 2006) --> Acquired through Tyler Seguin (2nd overall in 2010) & Dougie Hamilton (9th overall in 2011)
Tyler Biggs (22nd overall in 2011)
Stuart Percy (25th overall in 2011)
Morgan Reilly (5th overall in 2012)

If you're counting at home that's NINE first round picks acquired over the span of 4 seasons.

So tell me again, we're not rebuilding.
Quantity =/= Quality.

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01-29-2013, 12:32 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
I'd say our "wood" is of good/fair quality, however the foundation was rushed, causing the "wood" to not "fit" as it should.

Yes. Well put.

The foundation is there, however it was put together incorrectly. We need consistent and reliable goaltending, and some tweaking, not a rebuild. We already have one of the youngest teams in the NHL for god sakes.

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01-29-2013, 12:38 AM
  #105
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I think the Leafs should add some proven veteran players in that line-up, it seems nobody has ever proven anything or win anything on this team. It's a just a bunch of kids with talent but not surrounded at all, they would benifit from some cuprings in the locker room, veteran leadership.

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01-29-2013, 12:42 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post


Why is anybody talking about Phanuef like he is some kind of tradable asset?!

Best case scenario is Phanuef just leaves when his contract expires after next year. Thankfully Burke isn't around anymore to [mod] affect rational contract negotiations with a mistake prone, 2nd/3rd pairing defender.

Getting rid of Dion as captain will be an important part of rebuilding. Maybe a team with cap space and a big need for defence will give up a few draft picks.
Yeah every NHL coach of Dion Phaneuf's including Darryl Sutter(05-06), Jim Playfair (06-07) Mike Keenan (07-08 to 08-09) Ron Wilson (09-10 to 11-12) and Randy Carlyle (11-12 to present) who play/ed Dion Phaneuf as a top pairing defenseman must all be stupid. You're clearly the smart one. Top pairing defenseman who can log 10th TOI/G, 6th in goals, 12th in points, 7th in hits..etc grow on trees. We should resolve our issue of too little top pairing defenseman by trading away our top defenseman for a "few draft picks."


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 01-29-2013 at 02:00 AM.
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01-29-2013, 12:49 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Yeah every NHL coach of Dion Phaneuf's including Darryl Sutter(05-06), Jim Playfair (06-07) Mike Keenan (07-08 to 08-09) Ron Wilson (09-10 to 11-12) and Randy Carlyle (11-12 to present) who play/ed Dion Phaneuf as a top pairing defenseman must all be stupid. You're clearly the smart one. Top pairing defenseman who can log 10th TOI/G, 6th in goals, 12th in points, 7th in hits..etc grow on trees. We should resolve our issue of too little top pairing defenseman by trading away our top defenseman for a "few draft picks."
The problem isn't whether or not The Dion is a #1 D man. The question is how many dumb mistakes he's going to make every game in between being reasonably defensively sound.

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01-29-2013, 01:04 AM
  #108
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LOL blow what up exactly? We are talking about the youngest team in the league here, not a playoff contender
there is nothing to "blow up"

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01-29-2013, 01:15 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by stish View Post
Phaneuf was Norris material after 3 games. Now trade him for picks.
The only dumb thing about this post is how the Leafs are supposed to get picks for Phaneuf. As in multiple picks..

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01-29-2013, 01:15 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The problem isn't whether or not The Dion is a #1 D man. The question is how many dumb mistakes he's going to make every game in between being reasonably defensively sound.
Reasonably? He matches up against the oppositions top line at ES/PP/PK with the ability to post offensive numbers while shutting them down. Furthermore, he is a consistently dominant physical force and a shot leader among defenseman. Who does Dion Phaneuf play with? Over the past 2 seasons it's Carl Gunnarsson and Mike Kostka. So a 20pt two-way defenseman and a career-AHLer.

Maybe if Phaneuf wasn't driven into the ground playing 25minutes night-in/night-out of the defensively inept Toronto Maple Leafs toughest minutes.. And maybe if he was lined up with more suitable partner like the majority of his contemporaries:
Alex Pietrangelo <--> Kevin Shattenkirk
Dustin Byfuglien <--> Tobias Enstrom
Shea Weber <--> Ryan Suter
Alex Edler <--> Dan Hamhuis/Kevin Bieska
Dan Girardi <--> Ryan McDonagh
Duncan Keith <--> Brent Seabrook

..etc

I firmly believe if you put a talented, motivated player in a position to succeed, there is a very high probability that they will. But slapping the C on Dion and telling him that it's now his responsibility to absolutely carry his defense core posting close to 28minutes of ice time leading the entire team at ES, PP and PK is just ridiculous. Especially doing this alongside a career-AHLer playing in his first 5 NHL games!

If this all just sounds like a bad joke, I'm sorry to say it's not. The whole Kostka experiment really has me questioning WTF are they doing here. "27 year old, career AHLer.. Never played an NHL game prior to the 12/13 season. Let's see what we've got with this guy.. Not by easing him on the bottom pairing and letting him earn his minutes but by hindering our top pairing guy by giving him the added responsibility of carrying a rookie and throwing Kostka to the wolves with 27minutes per night against the NHL's finest.." WTF?

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01-29-2013, 01:44 AM
  #111
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Trading for Kessel really **** them up. And having Bozak as your 1st line centre/Phaneuf as a captain **** them up more.

Seguin-Hamilton>>>Kessel

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01-29-2013, 01:55 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The problem isn't whether or not The Dion is a #1 D man. The question is how many dumb mistakes he's going to make every game in between being reasonably defensively sound.
This is a dumb myth perhaps perpetuated by Dion's early days in Calgary (when he played a much riskier, offensive game), but more likely perpetuated by the average hockey fan's tendency to harp on concepts and tropes for all-eternity (the Devils trap! Thornton is a playoff choker! etc). I may not see every single Leafs game but I catch a lot with GC, CI and some press assignments. Phaneuf is one of the better #1 D's in this league, and like the rest of them, he does make mistakes. They are neither extraordinarily "dumb" nor are they extremely common. There are of course better #1 D in the league, but there are many that are worse as well.

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01-29-2013, 01:56 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by jagielski41 View Post
Trading for Kessel really **** them up. And having Bozak as your 1st line centre/Phaneuf as a captain **** them up more.

Seguin-Hamilton>>>Kessel
It's possible that it will change in the future, but right now, Kessel > Seguin-Hamilton.

Phaneuf is fine.

I do however agree that having Bozak as a #1 center is one of Toronto's shortcomings currently, the only other glaring deficiency being an established #1 goaltender.

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01-29-2013, 01:58 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by jagielski41 View Post
Trading for Kessel really **** them up. And having Bozak as your 1st line centre/Phaneuf as a captain **** them up more.

Seguin-Hamilton>>>Kessel
No. Not right now.

Maybe in a few years. Seguin almost definetly will be better, Hamilton I haven't even seen him play yet.

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01-29-2013, 01:59 AM
  #115
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Yup. Should have happened years ago. No more shortcuts i.e Kessel deals. Hold onto Rielly,Kadri,Gardiner,Riemer,JVR,Frattin,Colborne, Gunnar,Percy,Biggs,Ross,D'amigo and get rid of everyone else. Think of all the picks and prospects you could get for Phaneuf,Kessel,Lupul,MacArthur,Grabovski etc. The good news is, the team already has some good young pieces so it's not like it would take 4 or 5 years of tanking.

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01-29-2013, 02:03 AM
  #116
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I don't think they need to blow it up at all. I would hold on to the the following players...

Lupul - xxxxx - Kessel
Kadri - xxxxxxxx - JVR
xxxxx - xxxxxx - xxxxx
xxxxx - xxxxxx - xxxxx

Phaneuf - Gunnar
Gardiner - Rielly
xxxxxxx - xxxxxx

xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx

Obviously there are some big holes there, but getting a goaltender shouldn't be too difficult based on the price they have gone for the last few years. The major issue will be getting a legitimate #1 centerman.

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01-29-2013, 02:04 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post


Why is anybody talking about Phanuef like he is some kind of tradable asset?!

Best case scenario is Phanuef just leaves when his contract expires after next year. Thankfully Burke isn't around anymore to [mod] affect rational contract negotiations with a mistake prone, 2nd/3rd pairing defender.

Getting rid of Dion as captain will be an important part of rebuilding. Maybe a team with cap space and a big need for defence will give up a few draft picks.
Dion could bring value back, not sure why people like to crap all over him. He's not a number one dman, but he could be very, very useful in the right situation as a 50 point offensive dman. The good thing is, you can keep some of the salary. Dion at $4 million a year would definitely garner the Leafs a good return.

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01-29-2013, 02:09 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by stempniaksen View Post
I don't think they need to blow it up at all. I would hold on to the the following players...

Lupul - xxxxx - Kessel
Kadri - xxxxxxxx - JVR
xxxxx - xxxxxx - xxxxx
xxxxx - xxxxxx - xxxxx

Phaneuf - Gunnar
Gardiner - Rielly
xxxxxxx - xxxxxx

xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx

Obviously there are some big holes there, but getting a goaltender shouldn't be too difficult based on the price they have gone for the last few years. The major issue will be getting a legitimate #1 centerman.
Have to agree, I would personally say the following could be kept for a legit cup contending team:

Lupul-xxxx-Kessel
JvR-Grabovski-xxxx
Kulemin-Kadri-xxxx
xxxx-McClement-xxxx

Have to agree that a legitimate #1 center solves a big part of the Leafs problems. Here's hoping to them not getting one! lol

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01-29-2013, 02:22 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Subbanned View Post
This is a dumb myth perhaps perpetuated by Dion's early days in Calgary (when he played a much riskier, offensive game), but more likely perpetuated by the average hockey fan's tendency to harp on concepts and tropes for all-eternity (the Devils trap! Thornton is a playoff choker! etc). I may not see every single Leafs game but I catch a lot with GC, CI and some press assignments. Phaneuf is one of the better #1 D's in this league, and like the rest of them, he does make mistakes. They are neither extraordinarily "dumb" nor are they extremely common. There are of course better #1 D in the league, but there are many that are worse as well.
Not buying it. I've watched dion too many times both pre trade and post trade to know better. Even watching him this year with his gaffes against nyi remind me that the only thing that has changed for dion is the c on his chest and regher not being there to cover up his routine crap ups.

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01-29-2013, 02:35 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Not buying it. I've watched dion too many times both pre trade and post trade to know better. Even watching him this year with his gaffes against nyi remind me that the only thing that has changed for dion is the c on his chest and regher not being there to cover up his routine crap ups.
Nope. I wish he was prone to "routine crap ups", it would make the Leafs much easier to play against. Unlike his younger days in Calgary, he picks his spots when he goes for the hits, and doesn't go all out in efforts to force the offense. He's matured as a defender and it shows in his game, his statistics (not team based questionable markers such as plus-minus ofc), and his coaches' faith in him. NHL scouts and executives agree on this matter, while he will never be mistaken for a defensive defenseman, he is significantly above average in his own end, and nearing the elite in an all-around capacity.

It's a good thing Toronto seems intent on heaping the brunt of their blueline work solely on his shoulders too (ie. pairing him with AHL players), because if he had a competent partner, a legit #2 defenseman, their team would be much stronger.

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01-29-2013, 02:41 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by ChoseLa View Post
I think the Leafs should add some proven veteran players in that line-up, it seems nobody has ever proven anything or win anything on this team. It's a just a bunch of kids with talent but not surrounded at all, they would benifit from some cuprings in the locker room, veteran leadership.
Been saying this for years.

Anyway, of course Kessel is in trade rumours. Five games, no goals, two assists? Trade the bum! Nevermind he had 82 points last season. You know, 6th in the league in scoring? 7th in goals? Nope, blow it up.

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01-29-2013, 07:46 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post
Yes. A proper rebuild this time. No Kessel shortcuts.
This would be nice....

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01-29-2013, 07:48 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by jagielski41 View Post
Trading for Kessel really **** them up. And having Bozak as your 1st line centre/Phaneuf as a captain **** them up more.

Seguin-Hamilton>>>Kessel
Bozak is so far away from being the problem. I don't think you have a clue.

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01-29-2013, 08:02 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by stempniaksen View Post
I don't think they need to blow it up at all. I would hold on to the the following players...

Lupul - xxxxx - Kessel
Kadri - xxxxxxxx - JVR
xxxxx - xxxxxx - xxxxx
xxxxx - xxxxxx - xxxxx

Phaneuf - Gunnar
Gardiner - Rielly
xxxxxxx - xxxxxx

xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx

Obviously there are some big holes there, but getting a goaltender shouldn't be too difficult based on the price they have gone for the last few years. The major issue will be getting a legitimate #1 centerman.
Why does everyone hate Grabo? Why do people think Gardiner is a top 3 D-man? And Dion cant be the #1 guy.

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01-29-2013, 08:11 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by BlameSubban View Post
Well not really, Blowing it up has to bring return to the players you are getting rid of. What did they get for the leafs of the mid 2000s? Nothing substantial at all. I'm talking firesale and being a bottom feeder (a real bottom feeder, not a 7-10th drafting team) for a couple seasons and bring in some players through the draft.
Blow it up and bring in AHl players while the prospects and draft picks develop. Problem is no more three straight #1 overall picks with the draft. Bettman is back to the old lottery system. A real rebuild may be harder to come by nowadays. Leafs could hope to pick top 5 for the next 5 years though. I think the Kessel trade set the team back. Burke has compounded it by signing marginal free agents that are good enough to keep the team from hitting rockbottom. Burke was also reluctant to trade his vets because he is stubborn and truly believed he was building a contender.

It amazes me how last year Montreal could draft #3 overall and get a stud with the talent on that team. I do realize injuries were a concern but if Price is so good no way do you pick that high. The Leafs have to get lucky like the Canadiens did.

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