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01-29-2013, 08:22 AM
  #301
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Originally Posted by marcel snapshot View Post
Chris Kreider is a proven talent? His own coach just suggested he might have to go back to the AHL.
Not only that but Ryan Callahan didn't reach 46pts until he was 25 years old. MJ did that 3-4 years ahead of him already in a year where scoring was lower comparatively. At their same ages Callahan was splitting time with Hartford and the big club while MJ was a full time player already.

Kreider looks promising but he has had lapses too ..b/c he is young.

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01-29-2013, 08:32 AM
  #302
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Yeah, I don't know what it is about people in the last few years, but the expected age to start producing consistently at the NHL level has gone down. The kid isn't off his ELC, to the best of my knowledge, he's already put up 2nd line points last year (like it or not), was once one of the better and more instinctive defensive players on the team (young David Legwand, right?), and he's playing for his third coach in his development years, which I'm sure doesn't help very much, especially when he's playing wing. They haven't exactly put him in a place to succeed, and he still produced. Tough going right now, but there's talent there, and no reason to give up on it so early.

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01-29-2013, 08:43 AM
  #303
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I wonder if Marcus wouldn't be more effective playing on a line where he's the most skilled guy on the line, rather than on a line with Ovie and Nick where he's going to defer to them. When he's with Ovie and Nick, he needs to be a puck retriever and a board battler, and those are obviously not his strengths - he can and should get better at those things, but they're not the assets that make him an NHL-level player.

I actually thought he played pretty well on a line with MP85 and Hendricks last week against Montreal, but they haven't played together since then.

Meanwhile, I'm sorta intrigued by the Ovie-Beagle-Crabb experiment. Ovie gets to free-lance, playing with 2 responsible 2-way players who will retrieve pucks, cycle, win board battles, and clean up his turnovers. Ovie doesn't have to worry about getting the other guys on his line involved, because it's obvious that the whole purpose of the line is geared to creating opportunities for Ovie.

Unfortunately, the opposing D probably gets that too.

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01-29-2013, 09:09 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by marcel snapshot View Post
I actually thought he played pretty well on a line with MP85 and Hendricks last week against Montreal, but they haven't played together since then.

Meanwhile, I'm sorta intrigued by the Ovie-Beagle-Crabb experiment. Ovie gets to free-lance, playing with 2 responsible 2-way players who will retrieve pucks, cycle, win board battles, and clean up his turnovers. Ovie doesn't have to worry about getting the other guys on his line involved, because it's obvious that the whole purpose of the line is geared to creating opportunities for Ovie.

Unfortunately, the opposing D probably gets that too.

Amazing that you would admit to Ovie playing for Ovie!

Wouldn't that be part of the problem instead of part of the solution?

Also wouldn't it be a realization on the part of Oates?

I have seen Oates play for a long time and he was using his wingers very efficiently and he is all (I am sure) for a team concept.
It would not be out of the realm of possibilities that Oates is sending a message.

MoJo-MP-Hendricks was indeed a good line when together.

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01-29-2013, 09:10 AM
  #305
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So let me ask you this? Are you willing to waste say 3 more years to see if Mojo magically puts it together? Waste 3 more years of Ovi and Nick? Who the hell knows what they will look like then going at their current pace? Trading Mojo for a piece or two to help win in the next year or two greatly outweighs waiting the 3 years or so for him to finally put it together.

Here's a crazy thought GMGM. How about making a trade where both teams "win"? Obviously the Ribs trade was 3 years too late because he finally won a trade for a 2C. Blows my mind to see him hoard his nuts and not have the balls to make a real trade. But I guess that's the mindset when you're never gonna lose your job.

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01-29-2013, 09:23 AM
  #306
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The one fallacy that all Marcus Johansson staturbators assume is that all players have a common development curve. For every Stamkos, there are quite a few 1st round picks like Wolski, Berglund, Frolik, Okposo, Voracek, etc, that never manage to significantly exceed the production in the best season of their early 20s.

The Callahan is completely useless because he is the exact opposite of Johansson. Callahan worked his way to the NHL instead of having a roster spot handed to him just because of draft status.

The problem remains that unless Marcus Johansson is lighting up the assist column on the scoresheet, there is no justification for playing him because he is a complete liability.

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01-29-2013, 09:24 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by tmljeh19 View Post
So let me ask you this? Are you willing to waste say 3 more years to see if Mojo magically puts it together? Waste 3 more years of Ovi and Nick? Who the hell knows what they will look like then going at their current pace? Trading Mojo for a piece or two to help win in the next year or two greatly outweighs waiting the 3 years or so for him to finally put it together.
Magically puts it together? Nah. I'd rather him put it together in reality, which he is more than capable of doing. He's already shown it at the NHL level multiple times, though the consistency isn't there yet. You make it out like he's a surefire failure, while the truth is anything but that.

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Here's a crazy thought GMGM. How about making a trade where both teams "win"? Obviously the Ribs trade was 3 years too late because he finally won a trade for a 2C. Blows my mind to see him hoard his nuts and not have the balls to make a real trade. But I guess that's the mindset when you're never gonna lose your job.
2nd + Eakin for Ribeiro
Varlamov for 1st (Forsberg) + 2nd (Ribeiro)
Fleischmann for Hannan
2nd for Huet

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01-29-2013, 09:26 AM
  #308
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Amazing that you would admit to Ovie playing for Ovie!

Wouldn't that be part of the problem instead of part of the solution?
I'm not imparting selfishness to Ovie. I just think he only knows one way to be effective - which is go, go, go and play completely and totally on instinct. He's not a guy who's effective at reading how a play develops and adapting his approach based upon that read - so he's like the anti-Oates. He needs guys who read him.

So, yeah it's part of the problem - but we tried the last couple of years to make Ovie into something he's not; to add certain elements to his game, and it hasn't really worked.

I think Oates is trying to work with the player that Ovie is, rather than the player that we might like Ovie to be. Dale did it last year as well, and he obviously had a disproportionate focus on what a defensive liablity Ovie could be. I think Oates is trying to allow Ovie to be what he is, while getting others to make up for his defensive shortcomings - as opposed to Hunter who dealt with his defensive shortcomings by limiting his ice time.

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01-29-2013, 09:36 AM
  #309
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Dude, if you are going to knock something about GMGM, the last ****ing thing you are going to do is knock his trades, that's just dumb.

He sucks incredible amounts of ass at signing FAs, signing coaches, putting a real "team" together and is a mediocre drafter...but a ****** trader, he is not.

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01-29-2013, 09:38 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by marcel snapshot View Post
I'm not imparting selfishness to Ovie. I just think he only knows one way to be effective - which is go, go, go and play completely and totally on instinct. He's not a guy who's effective at reading how a play develops and adapting his approach based upon that read - so he's like the anti-Oates. He needs guys who read him.

So, yeah it's part of the problem - but we tried the last couple of years to make Ovie into something he's not; to add certain elements to his game, and it hasn't really worked.

I think Oates is trying to work with the player that Ovie is, rather than the player that we might like Ovie to be. Dale did it last year as well, and he obviously had a disproportionate focus on what a defensive liablity Ovie could be. I think Oates is trying to allow Ovie to be what he is, while getting others to make up for his defensive shortcomings - as opposed to Hunter who dealt with his defensive shortcomings by limiting his ice time.
Fair enough!

One would think that Backstrom, who has been playing alongside Ovie for years, would be the best suited to work with him.....and it does not work.

Amazingly we could argue on Ovie's hockey sense if he did not figure yet how to play well with a very gifted centerman.

What I find is that skilled players are being relegated to 4th line status because of their incapacity to work properly with Ovie even if a first line centerman also have showed that incapacity.

Maybe it is time to restructure this team...that it be from within or by bringing some outsiders.

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01-29-2013, 09:45 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by tmljeh19 View Post
So let me ask you this? Are you willing to waste say 3 more years to see if Mojo magically puts it together? Waste 3 more years of Ovi and Nick? Who the hell knows what they will look like then going at their current pace? Trading Mojo for a piece or two to help win in the next year or two greatly outweighs waiting the 3 years or so for him to finally put it together.

Here's a crazy thought GMGM. How about making a trade where both teams "win"? Obviously the Ribs trade was 3 years too late because he finally won a trade for a 2C. Blows my mind to see him hoard his nuts and not have the balls to make a real trade. But I guess that's the mindset when you're never gonna lose your job.
This discussion would have been more relevant 3 or 4 years ago when many people said that we are wasting Ovechkin b/c GMGM would not part with his eggs. If we passed on Pronger b/c of that then I see no reason now to suddenly change gears.

Like it or not this is the Caps plan...to stick with young guys and constantly churn them out. This type of plan requires patience.

GMGM diverged from it by shipping off Eakin but thats as far as he has ever gone.

He's risk averse when it comes to trades and that is not something new.

This is our plan. Build and build thru the draft. To execute this plan it will require patience. Does that mean MJ will automatically turn out to be a top notch NHLer? Nope. But he has to be given the chance.

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01-29-2013, 09:57 AM
  #312
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Why stop at trading away Johansson? Holtby has struggled this year, and thus not developing the way we hoped he would. Let's trade him too! Many hoped Kuznetsov would have more than 0 NHL games played by this point. He's developing slower than expected by that metric. Trade him! Orlov was a healthy scratch in the playoffs and hasn't done anything to redeem himself this season. Ship him out!

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01-29-2013, 10:00 AM
  #313
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Dude, if you are going to knock something about GMGM, the last ****ing thing you are going to do is knock his trades, that's just dumb.

He sucks incredible amounts of ass at signing FAs, signing coaches, putting a real "team" together and is a mediocre drafter...but a ****** trader, he is not.
I never said they were bad trades. I said he has to come out on top to swing a trade. The first and second for Varly was a huge win. Ribs for Eakin and that second was also a win. What I rag on him for is not having the balls to make a trade that he isn't a clear cut winner. Something people will say "well damn that's a good trade for both teams".

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01-29-2013, 10:01 AM
  #314
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What's the upside to Johansson? He's an undersized center who struggles to score at even strength, loses battles and has three concussions. What real upside is there? I used to think he could be like Legwand with less offense but to me his defense has gotten worse every year. So I'm at a loss to describe his potential. Maybe Mariusz Czerkawski with less offense?

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01-29-2013, 10:02 AM
  #315
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What's the upside to Johansson? He's an undersized center who struggles to score at even strength, loses battles and has three concussions. What real upside is there? I used to think he could be like Legwand with less offense but to me his defense has gotten worse every year. So I'm at a loss to describe his potential. Maybe Mariusz Czerkawski with less offense?
He can get you into Madonna concerts, brah.

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01-29-2013, 10:04 AM
  #316
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What I rag on him for is not having the balls to make a trade that he isn't a clear cut winner.
...

Yes, I would much prefer a GM that loses trades..

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01-29-2013, 10:05 AM
  #317
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What's the upside to Johansson? He's an undersized center who struggles to score at even strength, loses battles and has three concussions. What real upside is there? I used to think he could be like Legwand with less offense but to me his defense has gotten worse every year. So I'm at a loss to describe his potential. Maybe Mariusz Czerkawski with less offense?
I'm thinking like Jason Chimera with less goal scoring and hitting ability or balls...


So...essentially nothing.

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01-29-2013, 10:06 AM
  #318
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Magically puts it together? Nah. I'd rather him put it together in reality, which he is more than capable of doing. He's already shown it at the NHL level multiple times, though the consistency isn't there yet. You make it out like he's a surefire failure, while the truth is anything but that.
Well he's also anything but a proven NHL talent as well. He's currently in excess to what we need. What value is he to this team as a healthy scratch currently? What could this team use more? A underachieving C sitting in the press box or a top 6 F or top 4 D?

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01-29-2013, 10:09 AM
  #319
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I never said they were bad trades. I said he has to come out on top to swing a trade. The first and second for Varly was a huge win. Ribs for Eakin and that second was also a win. What I rag on him for is not having the balls to make a trade that he isn't a clear cut winner. Something people will say "well damn that's a good trade for both teams".
Go ask Colorado and Dallas fans what they think about those trades. They will tell you that they "won" them.

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01-29-2013, 10:15 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
What's the upside to Johansson? He's an undersized center who struggles to score at even strength, loses battles and has three concussions. What real upside is there? I used to think he could be like Legwand with less offense but to me his defense has gotten worse every year. So I'm at a loss to describe his potential. Maybe Mariusz Czerkawski with less offense?
A swift, two-way playmaking forward. Somewhere between Ales Hemsky (not as good at dangling) and David Legwand (better playmaking).

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Well he's also anything but a proven NHL talent as well. He's currently in excess to what we need. What value is he to this team as a healthy scratch currently? What could this team use more? A underachieving C sitting in the press box or a top 6 F or top 4 D?
He responded to the healthy scratch at the beginning of last season. Who says he doesn't respond again this year?

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01-29-2013, 10:17 AM
  #321
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What's the upside to Johansson? He's an undersized center who struggles to score at even strength, loses battles and has three concussions. What real upside is there? I used to think he could be like Legwand with less offense but to me his defense has gotten worse every year. So I'm at a loss to describe his potential. Maybe Mariusz Czerkawski with less offense?
Johansson was a better scorer at even strength than Ovechkin last year.

Upside can be somewhere from Filppula to Marleau.

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01-29-2013, 10:18 AM
  #322
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What's the upside to Johansson? He's an undersized center who struggles to score at even strength, loses battles and has three concussions. What real upside is there? I used to think he could be like Legwand with less offense but to me his defense has gotten worse every year. So I'm at a loss to describe his potential. Maybe Mariusz Czerkawski with less offense?
Drop passing machine!

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01-29-2013, 10:18 AM
  #323
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What's the upside to Johansson? He's an undersized center who struggles to score at even strength, loses battles and has three concussions. What real upside is there? I used to think he could be like Legwand with less offense but to me his defense has gotten worse every year. So I'm at a loss to describe his potential. Maybe Mariusz Czerkawski with less offense?
Again..he is 22. All those things you say about him (sans concussion) can be said about alot of young players. He is a great skater with a good head on his shoulders.

Does he need to bulk up? yep. Can he? yep. He's only 22 remember.

Does he need to work on his face offs? yep. Can he? yep.

He is just struggling with his confidence as many young players tend to do.

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01-29-2013, 10:19 AM
  #324
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Why stop at trading away Johansson? Holtby has struggled this year, and thus not developing the way we hoped he would. Let's trade him too! Many hoped Kuznetsov would have more than 0 NHL games played by this point. He's developing slower than expected by that metric. Trade him! Orlov was a healthy scratch in the playoffs and hasn't done anything to redeem himself this season. Ship him out!
The Johansson stuff mainly isn't like some of the bashing other players get here. A lot of his critics are actually thoughtful and informed. There are obvious reasons to be troubled by his development, but also obvious reasons to think it's worth waiting for that development to finish / taking a better approach to helping him realize it. I'm pretty torn on the issue, but I think you're being a little hysterical about it. I think one of Boudreau's biggest strengths was his ability to get the most out of young players who had little reason to feel confident they could succeed in the NHL. And maybe all he really did was give them confidence, but he certainly was good at it (while probably ignoring and implicitly indulging some bad habits along the way). If Oates really is trying to systematically rebuild individual players' confidence, success with Johansson could go a long way.

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What's the upside to Johansson? He's an undersized center who struggles to score at even strength, loses battles and has three concussions. What real upside is there? I used to think he could be like Legwand with less offense but to me his defense has gotten worse every year. So I'm at a loss to describe his potential. Maybe Mariusz Czerkawski with less offense?
As far as I know, the idea that past concussions from which a person has fully recovered put that person at an abnormally high risk for more concussions is a myth. Once all swelling has disappeared after an injury, the risk should have returned to normal. I don't know the timeline of Johansson's concussions, but he probably hadn't fully recovered from the first one when he got his second, etc. It's been years now, though.

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01-29-2013, 10:31 AM
  #325
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Again..he is 22. All those things you say about him (sans concussion) can be said about alot of young players. He is a great skater with a good head on his shoulders.

Does he need to bulk up? yep. Can he? yep. He's only 22 remember.

Does he need to work on his face offs? yep. Can he? yep.

He is just struggling with his confidence as many young players tend to do.
Should he visit Gio Gonzalez's Doctor? Yep

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