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Old
12-06-2012, 05:46 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Wouldnt be bad to have Detroit host the world juniors, especially with Canada being so close and Buffalo being successful in large part due to the proximity to the border.

Joe Louis and this new arena could be the focus of arenas for the tourney. How much does the wolverines rink seat? I know that just got some nice renos done as well
It seats somewhere between 6,000 and 7,000 last I heard. Either way the Detroit area had three stadium ice rinks capable of housing 20,000 plus when this thing is complete. Yost wouldn't be one of my spots.

They can play at.

New Arena
Joe Louis (hopefully still around if not other options are around)
The Palace
Compuware Arena (out in the Plymouth area)

While it is smaller than Yost, I could see them putting some games out there for the lesser draw matchups and it has a decent setup, would probably be used by some as practice facility anyway.

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12-06-2012, 06:01 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Wouldnt be bad to have Detroit host the world juniors, especially with Canada being so close and Buffalo being successful in large part due to the proximity to the border.

Joe Louis and this new arena could be the focus of arenas for the tourney. How much does the wolverines rink seat? I know that just got some nice renos done as well
The problematic part would be the international size ice. JLA doesn't have it, I don't think the new arena would and Yost doesn't either. The only place I could see you putting in an international sized rink would be Comerica. And I don't know if the novelty of a WJC being hosted outdoors would be something that would get people pumped up. I honestly don't know of any major ice arenas in the area that have an international size ice surface.

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12-07-2012, 03:47 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
The problematic part would be the international size ice. JLA doesn't have it, I don't think the new arena would and Yost doesn't either. The only place I could see you putting in an international sized rink would be Comerica. And I don't know if the novelty of a WJC being hosted outdoors would be something that would get people pumped up. I honestly don't know of any major ice arenas in the area that have an international size ice surface.
Every time the World Juniors are held in North America, they play on North America sized ice.

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12-07-2012, 09:51 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by SirloinUB View Post
Every time the World Juniors are held in North America, they play on North America sized ice.
Good to know. In that case it should definitely be held in Detroit once the new barn is open for business.

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12-08-2012, 02:54 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
1) Where do you think DDA money comes from?
It's a taxation district overlaid on top of a region of the city.
Taxes on future property tax increases are diverted from the places they would normally go (schools/fire/pd etc).

2) I'm glad you want tax dollars to go straight into the hands of selected rich guys. I don't..

It's great having Ford Field downtown and a new Comerica Park... but how exactly did that change Detroit?

It didn't.
1) The DDA is going to collect that tax money whether it goes to this project or not. Of course it's tax money. That still doesn't mean that it is available to schools etc.

There are a lot of developments in various forms of progress in the city right now and they ARE attracting young people to live and socialize and spend money in the city. That is a good thing. This project will help. The stadium is just part of a larger project that include streetside retail space, office space and possible housing.

2)It's not about money going to "select rich guys." Its about the money going to people who will manage it properly and get the most result per dollar. Do I trust the Ilitch's, Penske's and Gilbert's more than I trust the City's government? You bet your ass I do.

And if you don't believe that Comerica Park and Ford Field have not contributed to the progress that has been made in the city then there is no use arguing with you. Have they transformerd the city overnight? No, that's not possible. Considering the state that Detroit was in 10 years ago, it would be beyond naive to believe that Detroit could turn into a Chicago or even a Cleveland over the span of a decade. This type of project takes decades of sustained projects and coordination to happen. You can't look at one or two projects as if they exist only onto themselves and say, "whelp, that stadium has been round for 8 years and the city isn't a rolling metropolis, so its a failure." It's creating a critical mass of entertainment, housing and safety that will attract people to the city. It's happening but it needs to be sustained.

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12-08-2012, 03:14 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by chances14 View Post
The project is going to be at the Temple and Woodward site.

The original plan (8 years ago) had the stadium project being placed behind the Fox Theater. That project was stalled when the economy tanked. In the meantime Marian acquired the Motor City Casino and that changed the attitude of having the stadium behind the Fox. The reasoning is that the stadium would be sandwiched between the Fox and MGM Casino. The Ilitch's would rather not put their new stadium next to their competitors casino where people would park there and spend money there before, during and after stadium events. By moving the stadium to the other side of I-75 it make it a little closer, a little more of a direct route for people to go to the Motor City Casino rather than the MGM.

Plus, by filling up that gap on Woodward they help to create a continuous, safe, walkable route for consumers to move from New Center through Wayne State University, the Museum and Arts District, Foxtown all the way to Hart Plaza. Which is one of the goals that was mentioned when discussing the potential site.

Another indicator is that the M1 Rail Line (which also just cleared a huge hurdle in the way of legislation for a Regional transit Authority being approved) has a station planned in the designs right at that location. Why have one of the 23 Rail Stations at an abandoned lot unless there is planned development for that site? Oh, and the Ilitch's are one of the backers for the M1 Rail Line. Coincidence?

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12-08-2012, 04:29 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by sepster View Post
1) The DDA is going to collect that tax money whether it goes to this project or not. Of course it's tax money. That still doesn't mean that it is available to schools etc.

There are a lot of developments in various forms of progress in the city right now and they ARE attracting young people to live and socialize and spend money in the city. That is a good thing. This project will help. The stadium is just part of a larger project that include streetside retail space, office space and possible housing.

2)It's not about money going to "select rich guys." Its about the money going to people who will manage it properly and get the most result per dollar. Do I trust the Ilitch's, Penske's and Gilbert's more than I trust the City's government? You bet your ass I do.

And if you don't believe that Comerica Park and Ford Field have not contributed to the progress that has been made in the city then there is no use arguing with you. Have they transformerd the city overnight? No, that's not possible. Considering the state that Detroit was in 10 years ago, it would be beyond naive to believe that Detroit could turn into a Chicago or even a Cleveland over the span of a decade. This type of project takes decades of sustained projects and coordination to happen. You can't look at one or two projects as if they exist only onto themselves and say, "whelp, that stadium has been round for 8 years and the city isn't a rolling metropolis, so its a failure." It's creating a critical mass of entertainment, housing and safety that will attract people to the city. It's happening but it needs to be sustained.
Sports arenas and the part-time, minimum wage jobs they bring are not going to turn Detroit around.

It's going to take the kinds of jobs that sustain families to turn Detroit around.
A project like Detroit Manufacturing Systems is going to do far more good than entertainment.

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12-08-2012, 09:33 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sepster View Post
This type of project takes decades of sustained projects and coordination to happen. You can't look at one or two projects as if they exist only onto themselves and say, "whelp, that stadium has been round for 8 years and the city isn't a rolling metropolis, so its a failure." It's creating a critical mass of entertainment, housing and safety that will attract people to the city. It's happening but it needs to be sustained.
The problem is the "island effect". We've seen this in Baltimore where this sort of investment has happened for decades without a notable effect on the overall state of the city. I mean look at the geography involved, we're talking a small part of the downtown core i.e. the part of the city that is considered already fairly safe and attractive in almost any other city.

Why is this such a big problem in Detroit? Because there isn't enough economic muscle in Detroit to even maintain the most attractive parts of the downtown core. If you need to invest billions through publically financed building projects just to have this effect in this part of a small part of Detroit, you would probably need to spend the entire federal budget to replicate the effect for the entire city. And it's a fallacy to believe a "a nice entertainment district in a part of downtown" translates to "better city overall".

There are obviously *major* structural issues in Detroit, from a corrupt political leadership to ineffective public services. In some ways such investment in Detroit is throwing good money after bad, because this entertain district won't fix the council, the schools, the police and so forth i.e. many of the things that actually have contributed through the years to that economic muscle leaving Detroit for other parts of the state and country.

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12-09-2012, 12:35 PM
  #84
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But you have to start somewhere and the economic drivers have decided that the best way to turn the city around is to invest in the core downtown area with the hope that development spreads from there. If the city is able to create a core area that attracts socially and economically responsible people (which is happening) then you change the voting culture of the city. You change the expectations of constituents and that is what drives overall change, that is what ultimately "fixes" city council and the schools.

Without a change in the mentality and expectations of the constituents, there will be no saving Detroit. The last 30 years have proven that.

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12-09-2012, 02:50 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sepster View Post
But you have to start somewhere and the economic drivers have decided that the best way to turn the city around is to invest in the core downtown area with the hope that development spreads from there. If the city is able to create a core area that attracts socially and economically responsible people (which is happening) then you change the voting culture of the city. You change the expectations of constituents and that is what drives overall change, that is what ultimately "fixes" city council and the schools.

Without a change in the mentality and expectations of the constituents, there will be no saving Detroit. The last 30 years have proven that.
I think the economic element driving this project is that this could easily be a cash cow for the Ilitch family and other investors. They are creating a small area that would be considered "safe enough" for going out, but that plan works even if all those visiting are people from Novi, Troy or St.Clair Shores and it's completely irrelevant if the scene is post-apocalyptic across Chrysler freeway.

I entirely agree that productive people need to move into Detroit for there to be a change, but I'm not aware of any evidence that sports stadia in downtown cores do much to attract residents. The people from the areas around Tiger Stadium moved away in the 60s and 70s in spite of the close ties they had to the stadium and the team.

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01-29-2013, 04:56 AM
  #86
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Update.

Quote:
The hints point to a swath of blighted land north of the Fox Theatre in Detroit where at least 22 secretive land deals have taken place since 2008.

House Speaker Pro Tem John Walsh, R-Livonia, who sponsored legislation that would make the Ilitch organization — whose businesses include the Red Wings, Detroit Tigers, Fox Theatre and Little Caesars Pizza — eligible for $13 million a year in Detroit tax money, said Monday that Ilitch representatives indicated they are looking to Wall Street for financing and labor unions to invest in the project to secure some of the construction work.

Crain's Detroit Business reported this week that lobbyists and lawyers for Ilitch have approached state officials about the state owning the arena, which would be similar to the Red Wings' current arrangement in which the city of Detroit owns Joe Louis Arena and the Red Wings lease it.

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01-29-2013, 09:55 AM
  #87
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Ownership wants a new rink, so you can see why they aren't quite ready to throw in the towel and head for a complete rebuild at this point.

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01-29-2013, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Rzombo4 prez View Post
Ownership wants a new rink, so you can see why they aren't quite ready to throw in the towel and head for a complete rebuild at this point.
I dunno, if you had your next Yzerman or Lidstrom about the time the arena is completed that would generate much more interest in the team than a team with no Pavel Datsyuk and Z and Mule dealing with persistent injuries and no dominant presence on defense.

Who is the superstar on the current roster who will lead the team into the new arena?

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01-29-2013, 11:23 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
I dunno, if you had your next Yzerman or Lidstrom about the time the arena is completed that would generate much more interest in the team than a team with no Pavel Datsyuk and Z and Mule dealing with persistent injuries and no dominant presence on defense.

Who is the superstar on the current roster who will lead the team into the new arena?
Kyle Quincey

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01-29-2013, 11:46 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Rzombo4 prez View Post
Ownership wants a new rink, so you can see why they aren't quite ready to throw in the towel and head for a complete rebuild at this point.
Awesome. We'll call it "The House that Cleary and Sammy built."

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01-29-2013, 11:57 AM
  #91
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http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...play-for-arena

Good article, worth a read.

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Old
01-29-2013, 12:09 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
Thanks for the link.

Quote:
Property taxes are a major reason for the Ilitches to not want to own a new arena, said Neil deMause, a New York-based journalist and co-author of the book Field of Schemes, which took a critical look at public funding for professional sports stadiums.

"If the state owns the building, presumably you don't have to pay property taxes. That's huge. That's why a vast number of authorities are owned by public entities even if the teams are paying for the construction costs," he said.

....

Not owning a new arena also aids the Ilitches in the long term, deMause said.

"If you don't own the building, you're not stuck with it down the road," he said. "What you want to own is the revenue for the building. Actually owning the building means you're in a situation in which you want to move down the road, the property is yours and you have to figure out what to do with it."

The Michigan Strategic Fund owning the building helps solve those concerns, and there's precedent for the fund owning property.
As it always goes: privatize profits, socialize losses.

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01-29-2013, 01:03 PM
  #93
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As it always goes: privatize profits, socialize losses.
Detroit and the entire Metro Area deserve what they get. Public-anything should never be used to finance billionaires toys.

Unless of course outright ownership means all the Wings do is pay the owners rent+percentage of gate. City owns the concessions, parking, etc.

If the building is a profitable venture, go for it. Put specific language into the contract that prevents it from loss (meaning the tenant(s) would have to kick in at the end of fiscal term to offset any loss).

The city and its taxpayers are not in the business of subsidizing private profit, or at least they shouldnt be. More corporate welfare sold on the weakest premise of continued development in the downtown area.

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Old
01-29-2013, 02:35 PM
  #94
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it's a shame, but it's the system we've got.

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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
I entirely agree that productive people need to move into Detroit for there to be a change, but I'm not aware of any evidence that sports stadia in downtown cores do much to attract residents. The people from the areas around Tiger Stadium moved away in the 60s and 70s in spite of the close ties they had to the stadium and the team.
but the presence of restaurants, clubs, bars and shops do. That's why this mixed use development and the light rail link to New Center matter... if this small stretch of downtown and midtown can be successfully gentrified into a new Royal Oak, Ferndale or Ann Arbor, then that's a win for the city as a whole. Looking at this from a strict sports arena standpoint is wrong... it's one of several developments that will actually make this small section of the city livable.

Detroit's issue is that it's huge. It's a gigantic swath of land, the size of several other larger US cities combined. Rightsizing needs to happen and I think we all know that now... focusing on the peripheral neighborhoods is a flawed strategy. Build the city up again from the core out.

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01-29-2013, 02:45 PM
  #95
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also, from an optics standpoint, this makes the city LOOK a lot better. That blighted lot across Woodward is great for event parking, but otherwise it's a massive blackhole in between a fine (but empty) downtown and the usually busy midtown. It would probably lead to developing a lot of the blighted areas around Cass, too. And it would de-stigmatize the only area downtown that people are actually afraid of being... the Cass corridor. So it's a great site.

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01-29-2013, 02:52 PM
  #96
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Stadiums don't provide the kind of jobs that people can raise families on.

Detroit will rebound when functional families outnumber dysfunctional families.

All this crap about optics and investment is just BS.

Service jobs offered at these place and at the local restaurants, for the most part, offer terrible pay and irregular hours.

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01-29-2013, 03:15 PM
  #97
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I don't think anyone will move downtown to work in the service industry

I do think people will move downtown if they can get a life experience similar to that found in places like Royal Oak

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01-29-2013, 03:19 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Who is the superstar on the current roster who will lead the team into the new arena?
Nathan Mackinnon?

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01-29-2013, 03:21 PM
  #99
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I see this already. I know of 20-somethings that have moved down there to renovated apartments. Great stuff.
But counting on detached 20-somethings who aren't looking to put down roots is not wise.
It's something. But it's all too likely a passing fad.

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01-29-2013, 05:21 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
but the presence of restaurants, clubs, bars and shops do. That's why this mixed use development and the light rail link to New Center matter... if this small stretch of downtown and midtown can be successfully gentrified into a new Royal Oak, Ferndale or Ann Arbor, then that's a win for the city as a whole. Looking at this from a strict sports arena standpoint is wrong... it's one of several developments that will actually make this small section of the city livable.
What makes the city more 'livable' are unsexy things like grocery stores -- of which the city has almost none.

Bars, clubs and trendy shops are just fluff for suburban tourists.

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