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Old
01-29-2013, 01:09 PM
  #26
Horseradish
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Have a lot of respect for Gagner and think he has a long career in the league. But for what he does and doesn't bring, I see him as more of a luxury than a necessity.

And in a cap league with the embarrassment of riches the Oilers have for top-end talent, they'll need to strategically balance need against luxury.

A small-ish centre who can put up .7-.8 PPG on the second line with reasonable defensive abilities, and slightly weaker than average faceoffs? Or a larger centre who might put up a little bit less in terms of points but play more physical, win more draws, win more battles on the boards, and be able to face another team's top opposition and outchance them? Or a #3 two-way, minute-eating, capable of playing in all situations d-man?

The latter two are far more important to this team moving forward, and they're likely in the same price point that Gagner will be if he has either an average or above average year by comparison to his historical abilities.

If the Oilers could leverage Gagner and a secondary prospect and/or 2nd/3rd round pick for Ryan O'Reilly, I'd be over the moon. Just as an example.

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01-29-2013, 01:50 PM
  #27
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Good to see some people noting improvement in Gagner's game. Good to see as well he's shutting up the usual doubters.

Gagner did a lot of work on his defensive game and faceoffs last year. The year before was a cluste**** but largely because he was with Omark and MPS and overcompensating. The team put a 21yr old Center in over his head with those two, I'll always maintain that.

Thing you gotta like about Gagner is how he grows his game every year. Last season it was focus on all zone play and he was able to do that without sacrificing offence. In comparison Hemsky has made somewhat similar changes and has really sacrificed offence doing it. What this means is Gagner is making some good reads when to commit to play, when not, etc. Also that Gagner just works a very effective cycle game downlow. Always has. Helps if he has some linemates with some finish. Which he now has.

So Gagner this year came into camp with a much improved shot, a very competent and on target one timer (and he's getting all of em), has renewed focus to get the greasy goals in the paint and is scrumming the net often.

Gagner worked weights and core strength during offseason and is stronger on puck now and winning some puck battles. That he has very good anticipation of where the puck will be helps a lot.

The bloom with some good linemates is very predictable. Anytime Gagner had an ample dose of good linemates last year he was having some success.

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01-29-2013, 01:58 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
I've noticed the change. His compete level is at or near the top for the team.

Looks good on him, much more like his dad.
I don't remember a time when his compete level was low... Never understood the hate on for Gagner.
High skill level, average speed, below average size, high level vision, good shot, below average faceoffs, high compete.
If he can stay healthy for 70+ games, finally playing with line-mates with comparable skill levels, he will be a top 10, offensive, 2nd line center-man for years. His defense will never be top 10 2nd line center-man because of his lack of speed, but he should be in the top 20 at least. He thinks the game well. I have him pegged for 60-65 points per year after this one, while the Oilers have a legit 2nd line with Yakupov and Hemsky.

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01-29-2013, 01:58 PM
  #29
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I say credit where it is due. Gags has looked good so far.

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01-29-2013, 01:59 PM
  #30
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Now he just needs to get into a fight.

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01-29-2013, 02:04 PM
  #31
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if gagner and hemsky can put up 40 pts a piece we could use them to aquire a significant centre for years are years, their point totals are directly tied to the type of return we will get if we do trade them.

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01-29-2013, 03:11 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMK View Post
I don't remember a time when his compete level was low... Never understood the hate on for Gagner.
High skill level, average speed, below average size, high level vision, good shot, below average faceoffs, high compete.
If he can stay healthy for 70+ games, finally playing with line-mates with comparable skill levels, he will be a top 10, offensive, 2nd line center-man for years. His defense will never be top 10 2nd line center-man because of his lack of speed, but he should be in the top 20 at least. He thinks the game well. I have him pegged for 60-65 points per year after this one, while the Oilers have a legit 2nd line with Yakupov and Hemsky.
Its not like Gagner never had a great work ethic, he has always had that. He just seems much more confident this year. I think the coach has much for faith in him than Renney did.

And defensively he hasn't been that bad. He completes way more passes than his linemates. Hemsky has been leaking turnovers because he holds onto the puck for to long. And Yak is still a rookie.

I say give him 2 more years and try and get someone like Clowe.

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01-29-2013, 03:59 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post

I say give him 2 more years and try and get someone like Clowe.
You know I'm not convinced he absolutely needs a big strong powerforward to work.

I think more than anything the 2nd line needs a player who is good down low and can score. Someone who can get into the crease to put away garbage goals, who can keep the puck in the opponents zone through board work, and score in traffic.

Give a guy like that to the 2nd line, and especially Gagner, and I think you'll see his point totals increase.

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01-29-2013, 04:05 PM
  #34
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If he can keep this up, and continue to grow, I will be far less concerned about him as our 2c going forward. That said, in Business you sell high, and he along with a pick could actually get us a guy like ROR. (Who we could use more)

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01-29-2013, 04:06 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
Its not like Gagner never had a great work ethic, he has always had that. He just seems much more confident this year. I think the coach has much for faith in him than Renney did.

And defensively he hasn't been that bad. He completes way more passes than his linemates. Hemsky has been leaking turnovers because he holds onto the puck for to long. And Yak is still a rookie.

I say give him 2 more years and try and get someone like Clowe.
Should be looking for someone like Clowe right now. They don't come around too often, need to always be on the look for guys like that.

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01-29-2013, 04:39 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Should be looking for someone like Clowe right now. They don't come around too often, need to always be on the look for guys like that.
I meant sign Gagner this year for 2 more years and get Clowe this summer when his contract is up.

And a guy to look at if we want some grit and garbage goals would be Okposo.

Not sure if the Isles are keen on trading him though.

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01-29-2013, 05:03 PM
  #37
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How about trying this guy with Gagner? http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=11346

Much cheaper than Clowe. Brings size and toughness + scored 17 goals two years ago. If it doesnt work out, you can always use him as an enforcer in the bottom six.

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Old
01-29-2013, 05:03 PM
  #38
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His compete level appears to be more consistent so far this year. He looks average defensively overall, a few bad games, a few good ones. Granted tgats comparing him to Hemsky and Yak who have been poor defensively. He seems to have regained some of the offensive creativity that he seemed to have lost the last few years. Maybe some of that is be aide he is playing with 2 guys who have elite skills and it is giving him more space and more opportunities.

Gagner has always been consistently inconsistent. He has had 2 really good games, 2 not good enough games and 1 meh game.

He is playing better than years 2-4 but I still believe we need a better defensive #2C and a bigger two way winger to replace Hemsky. Get those two things and we can compete against any team in the league on any night. With Hemsky and Gagner together on the 2nd line I don't think we can say that. I worry about him demanding a Leino type deal.

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Old
01-30-2013, 06:13 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Good to see some people noting improvement in Gagner's game. Good to see as well he's shutting up the usual doubters.

Gagner did a lot of work on his defensive game and faceoffs last year. The year before was a cluste**** but largely because he was with Omark and MPS and overcompensating. The team put a 21yr old Center in over his head with those two, I'll always maintain that.

Thing you gotta like about Gagner is how he grows his game every year. Last season it was focus on all zone play and he was able to do that without sacrificing offence. In comparison Hemsky has made somewhat similar changes and has really sacrificed offence doing it. What this means is Gagner is making some good reads when to commit to play, when not, etc. Also that Gagner just works a very effective cycle game downlow. Always has. Helps if he has some linemates with some finish. Which he now has.

So Gagner this year came into camp with a much improved shot, a very competent and on target one timer (and he's getting all of em), has renewed focus to get the greasy goals in the paint and is scrumming the net often.

Gagner worked weights and core strength during offseason and is stronger on puck now and winning some puck battles. That he has very good anticipation of where the puck will be helps a lot.

The bloom with some good linemates is very predictable. Anytime Gagner had an ample dose of good linemates last year he was having some success.
Gagner looks a bit stronger this year but also slower(not many games played)! Gags benefits from that the team is better and not spending so much in own zone. Gags will always make points in pp with all the free ice he gets then. He has 1 point es and the rest in pp. His 1 year deal says pretty much, if he doesnt has improved his defensive play fo gaw at the end of the season, his time in the oilers ends .

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01-30-2013, 06:26 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles View Post
How about trying this guy with Gagner? http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=11346

Much cheaper than Clowe. Brings size and toughness + scored 17 goals two years ago. If it doesnt work out, you can always use him as an enforcer in the bottom six.
I'd rather Penner. Bickell doesn't bring nearly enough offense

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01-30-2013, 06:39 PM
  #41
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I think Gagner has played very well thus far. People were talking about drafting Galchenyuk but we might have a #2C right beneath our noses. The problem with Gagner's development is that he was always on a terrible team and was relied on to do too much.

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01-30-2013, 06:42 PM
  #42
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Now he just needs to get into a fight.
If he does, he's going to start giving Marleau a run for his money

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01-30-2013, 06:43 PM
  #43
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I've always been a fan. He looks good so far. He has missed his assignment a few times in the slot in the defensive zone that has led to some goals against imo. But overall I'm pleased with his play. I want to see how he is still performing in 15-20 games though. He has always had his stretches where he puts up a PPG+ for a week or two. Problem is the stretches where he goes 0 for 5 or 6 games.

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01-30-2013, 08:35 PM
  #44
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Sam Gagner is already the Captain of this team-- BAM|!!!!

He has hit Oilers managment like a Mike Tyson left hand and they are already sleeping and they havent even hit the floor yet.

Instead of celebrating what they have and giving him the C he deserves they are spit-roasting him and pushing him around, trying to pigeonhole a Hall of an Ebbs into that leadership role. Boo-ya, Sammy will lead this team from the second line as he has done so far this year, what we have accomplished so far has been on the back of the 2nd line and the PP. Managment dont want to admit he has 3 dimensional vision like Nuge does because they missed it while they were trying to turn Sam into a robo-player. Thankfully it didnt work and he has managed to find ways to create offense despite the horrible systems he has been forced to work within from an offensive perspective.

Our top 2 players hands down are Gagner and Nuge in that order, until Nuge matures another year or two Sam will lead this team which is why it was a poor idea to not give him the permanent A at least until Nuge steps up - or just hand him the C and force a better player to earn it from him.

It is kind of sucky to watch your own organisation submarine a player who is obviously earning the role of Captain, and that is exactly what is happening here.

Gagner will soon start putting up multiple point nights-- as it is the 2nd PP unit looks better than the first and the 2nd line looks better than the first!!

Managment thinks its a no-brainer to hold the C back for one of the big three draft picks, I think this is a decision they will regret because it gives Gagner a goal, a target to focus on. And to be honest I am sure all of those studs want to earn the letter and they know who is who in the locker room -- the men in the room know who holds power positions on the ice , who the leaders are. Watch Sammy have a 5 point night tonight in Phoenix off a Yakupov hatty to solidify this point , ha ha ha.

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01-30-2013, 08:52 PM
  #45
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His trend of tenacious hockey and out battling opponents started to really take off last season, seriously i talked about it a lot last year. He's growing up.

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01-31-2013, 09:21 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by McClelland View Post
Gagner looks a bit stronger this year but also slower(not many games played)! Gags benefits from that the team is better and not spending so much in own zone. Gags will always make points in pp with all the free ice he gets then. He has 1 point es and the rest in pp. His 1 year deal says pretty much, if he doesnt has improved his defensive play fo gaw at the end of the season, his time in the oilers ends .
I don't think he's slower. Looks faster, has a faster first few steps. He's looked really good, yes he's missed some defensive zone tasks but at the same time he's done a lot better than other years.

I also question if he misses as many as everyone say in his own zone or if it's because he is the first one back and ends up covering the guy yak or hemsky should have.

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Old
01-31-2013, 09:31 AM
  #47
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gagner has outplayed nuge every game so far this season. but nuge is a golden boy so no one wants to point it out. im not saying gagner is better but he is playing better right now. i think keeping sam and supporting him with a bigger winger and moving hemsky to another line is a better option.

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01-31-2013, 09:38 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
Does anyone else see that Gagner's compete level has totally changed?

He was 2nd in blocked shots against Colorado.

He has as many points right now as Eberle.

He just seems to be trying much harder this year to stay consistent.

Now if only his FO% would improve..
The qual of Comp he has faced has increased year to year.
Gagner has been able to take on more defensive zone draw situation.

He was a PPG player with Penner/Hemsky and Hall/Eberle.

Until last night the complete lack of lane structure from Yakupov and Hemsky was killing him @ evens.

Would still like to see Yakupov moved to RW with Him and Smyth

EDIT: Corner and Yoest! I see allready covered.

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01-31-2013, 09:45 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
I'd rather Penner. Bickell doesn't bring nearly enough offense
To dream! Penner averaged 25G/season in the 3.75 season with the oilers.
20th best in the league for wingers.

Penner-Gagner-Yakupov

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01-31-2013, 10:12 AM
  #50
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Yeah, I'm a Gagner doubter, but I have to admit, his compete level has been pretty consistent for the first 6 games.

He's great when he plays like he has been. Plays bigger than he is.. like Gionta. He's great when he has that 'statement' to make (like when Quinn put him as a 4th liner 2 years ago in the season opener, and he responded with a Gordie Howe Hat trick).


The problem with Gags comes when he loses that drive, and has these 20+ game stretches of complacency.


Also the entire forward unit is just too small and weak. Particularly Center on our top 6.



Gagner isn't necessarily at fault for how this team was constructed, but we DO need more size in our top 6 if we want to compete for a cup.


Hall, RNH, Ebs, Yak are untouchable.

Which leaves Hemsky and Gagner as the odd-men-out for size replacements. Then a re-schuffling of the lines would be in order:


Big LW - RNH - Eberle
Hall - Big C - Yakupov



IMHO, I think Gagner's career trajectory has him tracking with Mike Comrie.

30 goal/60 points peaks. Undersized but feisty. But totally tradeable if an uipgrade like Lucic were on the table.

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