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Alain Vigneault Discussion - Part 2

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01-29-2013, 02:38 PM
  #826
Scurr
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
How is AV improving? Can you give examples?
Many defensive coaches say they can coach an offensive style, few can. AV did.

The way AV deploys his lines is inventive and very effective.

Our "system" is constantly changing. We have another new forecheck to start the season. AV gets **** for not being quick enough to adapt, I think that's a convenient excuse for our players when they don't play well.

He pulled Schneider after 5 goals in game 1 while we were still only down 3. I think that's a step in the right direction.

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01-29-2013, 02:59 PM
  #827
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AV can be a good coach. He just needs to hire a consultant to make all the decisions for him.

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01-29-2013, 03:10 PM
  #828
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AV can be a good coach. He just needs to hire a consultant to make all the decisions for him.
I was hearing the other day how the Sharks are so much better because they brought in Larry Robinson as an assistant, I was mad jeally. Actually **** it, let's poach him right now.

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01-29-2013, 03:12 PM
  #829
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There is snow outside & my birthday was recently so it MUST be January but it sure feels like its October.

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01-29-2013, 03:16 PM
  #830
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Did anyone else see the post game interview?

AV said they gave it all and the guys were out of gas due to the games, then follows up with his usual excuses, LA is a stanley cup champion, they are a good team, etc...

You know AV I would believe this if you didn't shorten the bench and bench our best forward in that game (Kassian) and Shroeder who won most of his faceoffs and is in mid season form.

If Vigneault believed that his team was out of gas then why the **** did he start double shifting Higgins, Hansen, etc.

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01-29-2013, 03:43 PM
  #831
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Did anyone else see the post game interview?

AV said they gave it all and the guys were out of gas due to the games, then follows up with his usual excuses, LA is a stanley cup champion, they are a good team, etc...

You know AV I would believe this if you didn't shorten the bench and bench our best forward in that game (Kassian) and Shroeder who won most of his faceoffs and is in mid season form.

If Vigneault believed that his team was out of gas then why the **** did he start double shifting Higgins, Hansen, etc.
Maybe you believe that AV would be a better coach if he signaled out the players that were "out of gas", but something tells me that that would have been the wrong move as well. You would no doubt complain if he double shifted a rookie and a sophomore as you suggested.

Its embarrassing how much some Canuck fans constantly flame our coaching, management and players. It seems to be never ending whether we are winning or losing this team can do no right. I do not for the life of me understand this need to constantly whine. Hell we even have an AV hate thread on the main boards so we can tell the rest of the league how much we hate our team.

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01-29-2013, 03:46 PM
  #832
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If you can learn to think for yourself, then you should be able to ask these questions regardless.

Or should we never question the coach? Why does this forum exist then?
Question, sure, but people talk about him as if he's an idiot and they're hockey geniuses. There's a lot going on that we don't see or know about. Even the most knowledgeable fan should be able to admit they don't have his wealth of first hand experience and knowledge. Sure he makes mistakes and maybe he won't be here much longer but people always take the easy way out and assume the coach is wrong.

People also conveniently forget all the times they post their half-baked coaching ideas that turn out to be awful or call AV an idiot for something that turns out to work brilliantly.

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01-29-2013, 03:57 PM
  #833
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Imagine if the coach would single out players like Bowman would do with habs.In front of 60 media in 1978 he singled out STEVE SHUTT on playing very poorly and said he might be removed from Lafleur line.Back then there was no internet or twitter but imagine how much dislike there would be on coach.

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01-29-2013, 04:05 PM
  #834
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It was cute when that person said (and since deleted) that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's wrong with AV's system, and then said that the team with the 6th most SOG in the NHL last year (less than 1 shot per game out of 3rd) didn't shoot the puck nearly enough.

This is the problem. We've got "this and that and whatnot is what's wrong with the team's system" posts being made by the people who stand there at the game screaming "SHOOT. ****ING SHOOT" for the entire 2min duration of the PP. We have people complaining about the team's systems that couldn't draw up an actual breakout if you put a gun to their head.

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01-29-2013, 04:41 PM
  #835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grub View Post
Did anyone else see the post game interview?

AV said they gave it all and the guys were out of gas due to the games, then follows up with his usual excuses, LA is a stanley cup champion, they are a good team, etc...

You know AV I would believe this if you didn't shorten the bench and bench our best forward in that game (Kassian) and Shroeder who won most of his faceoffs and is in mid season form.

If Vigneault believed that his team was out of gas then why the **** did he start double shifting Higgins, Hansen, etc.
What did you think he'd say. I think he is going to be desperate pretty soon, but only until the Cauncks are healthy will he face any real heat.

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01-29-2013, 04:51 PM
  #836
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I've been one of Vigneault's most vocal critics, but he's not going anywhere. Or rather, he's not going anywhere until after this season, at the earliest.

Given the fact he's just signed a new contract, he's missing two top-six forwards, and he's waiting on assets from a potential Luongo trade, I'm fairly certain Gillis will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Depending how the season unfolds, I suspect his position will be re-evaluated in the summer.

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01-29-2013, 04:56 PM
  #837
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Overall I think showing that you're still confident in the players that have lead to a lot success here is worthwhile. This team needs Malhotra and a couple others to step it up big time, maybe this was a show of confidence?

I'm not suggesting we should be throwing away points in this endeavour but there is no proof that playing Kassian and Schroeder would have lead to a different result.

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01-29-2013, 05:19 PM
  #838
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Originally Posted by VanEric View Post
Question, sure, but people talk about him as if he's an idiot and they're hockey geniuses. There's a lot going on that we don't see or know about. Even the most knowledgeable fan should be able to admit they don't have his wealth of first hand experience and knowledge. Sure he makes mistakes and maybe he won't be here much longer but people always take the easy way out and assume the coach is wrong.

People also conveniently forget all the times they post their half-baked coaching ideas that turn out to be awful or call AV an idiot for something that turns out to work brilliantly.
True, but what I've brought up as concerns in the past has been from what we observe on the ice (shortening the bench when all 4 lines were holding their own) or from what he or the team tells the media (no part in motivating the team) - mostly on the ice... at least for me, that is. You're right, nobody can claim to know more than he does with the first-hand knowledge he has. But when you see him doing stuff that hasn't worked before in the past...

I actually don't have that big of a problem with much of what AV does. It's just there are certain things that have me worried for the postseason.

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01-29-2013, 05:31 PM
  #839
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
(no part in motivating the team)
This is a leap of faith that people have taken based on AV conceding that he has given the room to the players. I don't know that it is accurate. I know they've made videos to show the players to get them amped up, for example. Rah rah speeches aren't the only way to motivate and eventually lose their effectiveness anyway.

This imo is and example of making judgements with a lack of information.

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01-29-2013, 05:31 PM
  #840
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If AV is part of the problem, he's a very minor one. The onus always has fallen on the players. Coaches can only guide and instruct to a certain extent, it's up to these grown men getting paid millions to execute. When they don't, it's just so easy to scapegoat a single person instead.

I bet Washington right now is regretting the firing off Boudreau. "Hey look, Ovechkin still can't score. Hey look, our team still sucks. Oh wow, Oates is even worse! Maybe it wasn't the coach after all."

It's the players that need to be held accountable about 90% of the time. The problem is, people see rare stories of success like Bylsma in Pittsburgh, but they conveniently ignore the fact that that team lost in the SCF finals the year prior, and maybe, just maybe, they won the next year because the group improved collectively thanks to their experiences.

AV does the best with what he can and it's the incessant cries of the compulsive few on here that seem to ring the loudest. The good news is that Gillis is a far more patient and cerebral man than most posters, otherwise this team would have a never ending carousel of coaches coming in and out.

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01-29-2013, 05:44 PM
  #841
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If AV is part of the problem, he's a very minor one. The onus always has fallen on the players. Coaches can only guide and instruct to a certain extent, it's up to these grown men getting paid millions to execute. When they don't, it's just so easy to scapegoat a single person instead.

I bet Washington right now is regretting the firing off Boudreau. "Hey look, Ovechkin still can't score. Hey look, our team still sucks. Oh wow, Oates is even worse! Maybe it wasn't the coach after all."

It's the players that need to be held accountable about 90% of the time. The problem is, people see rare stories of success like Bylsma in Pittsburgh, but they conveniently ignore the fact that that team lost in the SCF finals the year prior, and maybe, just maybe, they won the next year because the group improved collectively thanks to their experiences.

AV does the best with what he can and it's the incessant cries of the compulsive few on here that seem to ring the loudest. The good news is that Gillis is a far more patient and cerebral man than most posters, otherwise this team would have a never ending carousel of coaches coming in and out.
Well it could be the coaches in that case, because both have a lack of NHL head coaching exp..

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01-29-2013, 05:56 PM
  #842
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I'm not suggesting we should be throwing away points in this endeavour but there is no proof that playing Kassian and Schroeder would have lead to a different result.
maybe not but we'll never know if they dont get a chance. It was clear the vets weren't getting it done that game so why not give the players that got you the lead a shot? the thing that bugs me most is AV always says things like "If players show they are capable they will play, we've always done things this way and always will". If he was true to his words he would have parked the Sedins on the bench and played Burrows-Kassian, Schroeder-Raymond in OT.

I doubt anyone would have a problem with that even if the Kings scored.

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01-29-2013, 06:02 PM
  #843
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Well it could be the coaches in that case, because both have a lack of NHL head coaching exp..
Come on... Calgary's been playing that card for the past several years as well. At some point, you have to realize the team just isn't capable of producing as it once did.

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01-29-2013, 06:06 PM
  #844
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maybe not but we'll never know if they dont get a chance. It was clear the vets weren't getting it done that game so why not give the players that got you the lead a shot? the thing that bugs me most is AV always says things like "If players show they are capable they will play, we've always done things this way and always will". If he was true to his words he would have parked the Sedins on the bench and played Burrows-Kassian, Schroeder-Raymond in OT.

I doubt anyone would have a problem with that even if the Kings scored.
The difference between AV and your average fan is that he wants to see it for more than 4-6 games before you earn his trust. You aren't going to lose it after 4-6 games either, AV is loyal. Schroeder has been given significant ice time for a young guy, so has Kassian. He's been true to his word.

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01-29-2013, 06:11 PM
  #845
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The difference between AV and your average fan is that he wants to see it for more than 4-6 games before you earn his trust. Schroeder has been given significant ice time for a young guy, so has Kassian. He's been true to his word.
you think so? what is he afraid of, young players will lose all confidence if they make a mistake in crunch time? so what happens to their confidence when they get benched for no good reason. to me it will make them squeeze the stick, try to do too much when they finally do get a shot. if that happens he will then send them to the AHL saying they aren't ready for big minutes.

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01-29-2013, 06:20 PM
  #846
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you think so? what is he afraid of, young players will lose all confidence if they make a mistake in crunch time? so what happens to their confidence when they get benched for no good reason. to me it will make them squeeze the stick, try to do too much when they finally do get a shot. if that happens he will then send them to the AHL saying they aren't ready for big minutes.
Honestly, Kassian and Schroeder are both getting too much credit for their defence right now. Both have been good and are definitely putting in the effort but both made mistakes that could have cost us last night. That's to be expected from guys that are still adjusting to the pace of the NHL game. AV trusts the guys that have been here because they have earned that. Not by being perfect but by doing the right things more often than not. Making young guys earn trust will benefit them and the team going forward.

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01-29-2013, 06:21 PM
  #847
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Honestly, Kassian and Schroeder are both getting too much credit for their defence right now. Both have been good and are definitely putting in the effort but both made mistakes that could have cost us last night. That's to be expected from guys that are still adjusting to the pace of the NHL game. AV trusts the guys that have been here because they have earned that. Not by being perfect but by doing the right things more often than not. Making young guys earn trust will benefit them and the team going forward.
Schroeder is not really getting too much credit. He's playing some of the toughest minutes on the team right now — both in terms of zone starts and QoC. (Obviously limited sample size and all that.)

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01-29-2013, 06:26 PM
  #848
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Schroeder is not really getting too much credit. He's playing the toughest minutes on the team right now both in terms of zone starts and QoC.
He is getting too much credit for how he played last night imo. He turned the puck over trying to make a move 1 on 1 while the team was changing, he lost his check multiple times in our zone when LA activated their D and went with a 5 man cycle and he had trouble staying on his feet. I like him, his overall game 4 games in is miles ahead of most guys but he aint perfect.

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01-29-2013, 06:27 PM
  #849
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He is getting too much credit for how he played last night imo. He turned the puck over trying to make a move 1 on 1 while the team was changing, he lost his check multiple times in our zone when LA activated their D and went with a 5 man cycle and he had trouble staying on his feet. I like him, his overall game 4 games in is miles ahead of most guys but he aint perfect.
Of course not, but I would assume when he's being praised it's relative to the expectations. I don't think anyone thinks he's ready for 15 minutes a night shadowing Anze Kopitar. At least I would hope not. I guess the phrase "getting too much credit" just didn't seem to make sense to me given his contributions.

I'm sure he could've matched-up against the Kings 3rd line for a few shifts to end the game which would've rested the other guys more for the final 2 minutes. IMO that was a mistake given how tired they supposedly all were.

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01-29-2013, 06:32 PM
  #850
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Of course not, but I would assume when he's being praised it's relative to his expectations. I don't think anyone thinks he's ready for 15 minutes a night shadowing Anze Kopitar. At least I would hope not.
That's fair. Should we expect to see him out there with under 5 minutes left, protecting a one goal lead? He's been more than I expected but I don't think so, not yet.

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