HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Nashville Predators
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

X and O observations

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-25-2013, 10:43 AM
  #1
hoosierpred
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 73
vCash: 500
X and O observations

Illustrated very well by last nights game. The predators play a very conservative game in their own end based on trying to force the puck to the half-boards and trying to win a puck battle there with close puck support. The Blues countered this by using one deep forechecker (F1) and having both other forwards (F2 and F3) take away any pass to the board. F2 and F3 don't even bother trying to win puck battles, they just try to keep the puck deep using their forward momentum. If we play our usual game we have to often: 1) defeat the first forchecker on the end boards, 2) win one or two puck battles on the sideboards after the first outlet pass, 3) win a puck battle after the seemingly inevitable dump and chase. This in a nutshell is why we seem to spend so little time actually possessing the puck. (that and very poor timing of our cycle in the offensive zone)

To counter this, the center of the ice in the defensive zone must be used, but we seem very reluctant to do it due to the intrinsic risk, but other teams are not afraid to do it. The key is to hit the center with a pass when the opponents board forwards have momentum going the wrong way. Even when we had Suter we would use the middle less than almost any other team i've observed. Very disheartening to see us play into opponent's strengths.


Last edited by hoosierpred: 01-25-2013 at 11:05 AM. Reason: typo
hoosierpred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-25-2013, 12:58 PM
  #2
jlsg
Registered User
 
jlsg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 474
vCash: 500
It's sorta like beating the neutral zone trap, you haver to make quick short passes. Preds have changed up the defensive zone scheme a little and I thing wingers are having a tough time adjusting. They don't seem to be getting back into position quick enough and when they do there isn't any puck support. There really shouldn't be much of a battle on the boards if you make the passes short and quick, the problem is the other winger needs to be in position to get the pass.
They had it working well at times in the last 2 games, but couldn't get it working much last night. If the strong side winger can get into position and come down the board a little, the the weak side guy wheel around to get the pass around the top of the circles they can open up the middle. Do that a few times and the opposing wingers won't be coming down so hard on the boards. Then everything can open up. But id you're a step late getting into position you can't setup that first pass to the wheel man.

jlsg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-25-2013, 12:59 PM
  #3
wadesworld
Registered User
 
wadesworld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosierpred View Post
To counter this, the center of the ice in the defensive zone must be used, but we seem very reluctant to do it due to the intrinsic risk, but other teams are not afraid to do it. The key is to hit the center with a pass when the opponents board forwards have momentum going the wrong way. Even when we had Suter we would use the middle less than almost any other team i've observed. Very disheartening to see us play into opponent's strengths.
Unfortunately, our defensive center ice pass turnovers are far too common. I guess that's why we avoid it.

wadesworld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 11:43 AM
  #4
hoosierpred
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 73
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsg View Post
It's sorta like beating the neutral zone trap, you haver to make quick short passes. Preds have changed up the defensive zone scheme a little and I thing wingers are having a tough time adjusting. They don't seem to be getting back into position quick enough and when they do there isn't any puck support. There really shouldn't be much of a battle on the boards if you make the passes short and quick, the problem is the other winger needs to be in position to get the pass.
They had it working well at times in the last 2 games, but couldn't get it working much last night. If the strong side winger can get into position and come down the board a little, the the weak side guy wheel around to get the pass around the top of the circles they can open up the middle. Do that a few times and the opposing wingers won't be coming down so hard on the boards. Then everything can open up. But id you're a step late getting into position you can't setup that first pass to the wheel man.
That's just it. The blues were basically taking away that first pass to the sideboards by keeping their F2 and F3 hard on the boards (both at the same time) and very close to our forwards (so the forwards on the sideboards are not open initially. They can get away with this because both forwards are very quick and if forced to, they turn to the middle quickly to backcheck. Our passes should still be short, but they should be from our D in the corner to a centrally located forward (usually the center) and then diagonally to a forward on the boards (who's) taking advantage of the then misplaced forward momentum of their F2 or F3 on the boards.

hoosierpred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:00 AM
  #5
Seth Lake
Registered User
 
Seth Lake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 8,855
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Seth Lake
OK, I've pretty much had it with the new systems. I think it was a severe miscalculation to try to change the breakout pattern and the defensive zone system with only a week of training camp and no exhibition games.

While the new overload defensive zone coverage (DZC) is a solid coverage and can work, it is currently leaving the Preds total inept in their own zone because it is not in any way instinctive and you see players standing, watching, and thinking should I go or should I hold this position as the opponent starts cycling the puck deep. Additionally, due to the confusion in our end of the rink, when we do get the puck...there is no one to send a pass up to for a breakout, therefore it's kept in and the cycle begins again. By the time we breakout of our own end the players are exhausted and it's time to dump and change more often than not.

With two days off prior to our next game, the coaches need to really sit down today and evaluate if this is the coverage they want to stick with right now or if they want to switch back to the traditional "man on box behind" DZC as the base coverage with times where they use the overload (puck battle in corner below dots, puck battle behind the net, puck battle on the half-wall), yet always know to bounce back into the box coverage when the puck moves away.

This is not a call to bring in new coaches or throw anyone under the bus here. It's basically saying this is the first actual stop and evaluate point we've had this season where a change can be made, practiced tomorrow, and put into place for Thursday. I've seen the presentation the team got on the coverage, I've seen a Toronto coach give another presentation on the same coverage. If the lockout didn't happen, I believe this would have worked. I still believe it can work, but right now...things have got to be simplified and the players need to rebuild their confidence to move forward.

I fully expect the message to be clearly sent tonight and tomorrow within the team. The Preds have to go more North-South, they need to be less selective in their shot selection and throw pucks on net from all angles, they need to generate traffic to the net in layers before and after each shot is taken, and they need to not only help the defensemen in their end of the ice, but also get help from the defensemen activating into the offense or staying high and getting shots through to the net. [/rant]

Seth Lake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 12:22 PM
  #6
JR303
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 190
vCash: 500
I'm not good at the x and o's of the system, so I didn't realize that it had changed, but I knew that they guys were thinking, rather than playing by instinct, so this all makes sense.

It's quite apparent that they are spending WAY too much time making decisions, especially with the puck, and our opponets have picked up on this and are putting pressure on the puck carrier, who more often than not, doesn't have very many outlets for a pass. I know it will get fixed, I just wonder how long before we dig too deep a hole to get out of.

Thanks for the post SLAKE.

JR303 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 02:45 PM
  #7
predfan98
Registered User
 
predfan98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,456
vCash: 500
Thanks Slake...

I didn't know enough to know about this either...

Let us know if this changes over the next couple of games or if they keep going down this path.

Thanks.........

predfan98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 03:44 PM
  #8
Preds Partisan
Nothing
 
Preds Partisan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 696
vCash: 500
Per Cooper Preds with the day off. So much for working on the X's n O's with the players.

Preds Partisan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 04:09 PM
  #9
Drake744
Unregistered User
 
Drake744's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,351
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preds Partisan View Post
Per Cooper Preds with the day off. So much for working on the X's n O's with the players.
Nothing like spending a free day in LA to help fix the strategy. Unless the coaches are trying to figure it out.

Drake744 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 04:31 PM
  #10
Byrddog
Registered User
 
Byrddog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,734
vCash: 500
Unless the change has the end result of not shooting the puck when you have a chance it really is a secondary argument. If you do not put the puck on net you ahve 0 chance of scoring. These other issues can be worked out. Maybe im just too simple minded in how what I see as a problem.

Byrddog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 04:32 PM
  #11
CantbeatzPekka
Weber/Jones/Josi
 
CantbeatzPekka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: gamehendge
Country: Somalia
Posts: 4,067
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosierpred View Post
~snip~

To counter this, the center of the ice in the defensive zone must be used, but we seem very reluctant to do it due to the intrinsic risk, but other teams are not afraid to do it. The key is to hit the center with a pass when the opponents board forwards have momentum going the wrong way. Even when we had Suter we would use the middle less than almost any other team i've observed. Very disheartening to see us play into opponent's strengths.

You mentioned not using the center ice in or own zone for passes. I have a little background story on Trotz as to why the preds dont use the center ice in our own zone:

So when i was playing hockey back in TN circa 2001 when I was 8 or 9, Trotz came and talked to our team. You know the only thing I remember him saying? It was to never pass the puck in front of your goalie aka the slot in your own zone. Im sure he DRILLS that into his players knowing Trotz's style of defensive coaching, hence we never see those passes being made.

CantbeatzPekka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 04:38 PM
  #12
Seth Lake
Registered User
 
Seth Lake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 8,855
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Seth Lake
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantbeatzPekka View Post
You mentioned not using the center ice in or own zone for passes. I have a little background story on Trotz as to why the preds dont use the center ice in our own zone:

So when i was playing hockey back in TN circa 2001 when I was 8 or 9, Trotz came and talked to our team. You know the only thing I remember him saying? It was to never pass the puck in front of your goalie aka the slot in your own zone. Im sure he DRILLS that into his players knowing Trotz's style of defensive coaching, hence we never see those passes being made.
No, actually the team is taught to use the net front D as an outlet on the breakout when traditional lanes are occupied by the forecheck. In youth hockey, this is still taught as a no-no, but at the pro level Scotty Bowman popularized it and it's now the thing to do.

Seth Lake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 04:45 PM
  #13
Seth Lake
Registered User
 
Seth Lake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 8,855
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Seth Lake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preds Partisan View Post
Per Cooper Preds with the day off. So much for working on the X's n O's with the players.
FWIW, today being a day off is best right now. Gives everyone time to reflect and for X's and O's to be tweaked tomorrow in practice with a recharged group that is eager to get things on the right path instead of hating to head to the rink and continue this drudgery.

Seth Lake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 05:00 PM
  #14
CantbeatzPekka
Weber/Jones/Josi
 
CantbeatzPekka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: gamehendge
Country: Somalia
Posts: 4,067
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLake View Post
No, actually the team is taught to use the net front D as an outlet on the breakout when traditional lanes are occupied by the forecheck. In youth hockey, this is still taught as a no-no, but at the pro level Scotty Bowman popularized it and it's now the thing to do.
this was in the early 2000's. WHen did Bowman popularize that technique? Either way he nailed that point in us. So i thought id share the connection.

CantbeatzPekka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 06:39 PM
  #15
Seth Lake
Registered User
 
Seth Lake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 8,855
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Seth Lake
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantbeatzPekka View Post
this was in the early 2000's. WHen did Bowman popularize that technique? Either way he nailed that point in us. So i thought id share the connection.
During the period after the last lockout really.

It's a good rule for youth hockey, but at the pro level is commonly overlooked.

Seth Lake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 07:08 PM
  #16
glenngineer
Registered User
 
glenngineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Spring Hill, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 3,944
vCash: 500
Loved your analysis on the system changes SLake. Here's my question, with as little roster turnover as we had we had a good chance of coming into the season with a team ready to play and come out of the gates flying. We knew the system. We knew it worked. So why in the heck did we go to a new system and only a week of training camp? That makes no sense to me. Implement portions of it as the season goes on but to change it all up was stupid. Not one of Trotz's brighter moments.

glenngineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 07:12 PM
  #17
Drake744
Unregistered User
 
Drake744's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,351
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtrickhayOrnqvistpay View Post
Loved your analysis on the system changes SLake. Here's my question, with as little roster turnover as we had we had a good chance of coming into the season with a team ready to play and come out of the gates flying. We knew the system. We knew it worked. So why in the heck did we go to a new system and only a week of training camp? That makes no sense to me. Implement portions of it as the season goes on but to change it all up was stupid. Not one of Trotz's brighter moments.
This is my question

Drake744 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 07:32 PM
  #18
Seth Lake
Registered User
 
Seth Lake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 8,855
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Seth Lake
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtrickhayOrnqvistpay View Post
Loved your analysis on the system changes SLake. Here's my question, with as little roster turnover as we had we had a good chance of coming into the season with a team ready to play and come out of the gates flying. We knew the system. We knew it worked. So why in the heck did we go to a new system and only a week of training camp? That makes no sense to me. Implement portions of it as the season goes on but to change it all up was stupid. Not one of Trotz's brighter moments.
That was what I was ultimately trying to get to this morning. They decided they were going to teach this system. They broke it down over the summer and prepared to teach it. I think the main miscalculation was how long it'd take the players to grasp it and that's what is killing them right now.

FWIW, I never addressed the new controlled breakout pattern. Whenever I see it run there are two suicide passes waiting to happen and a third player finally coming back to the puck late with little support when he gets the pass.

Change is good. But how you implement it and how it's received ultimately determine how well it works out. Thus far, this is not working out...

Seth Lake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 07:38 PM
  #19
Predatorbill
Registered User
 
Predatorbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 770
vCash: 50
For those of us who have never played the game, but understand the basic strategies. Thanks

Predatorbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 07:46 PM
  #20
CantbeatzPekka
Weber/Jones/Josi
 
CantbeatzPekka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: gamehendge
Country: Somalia
Posts: 4,067
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLake View Post
During the period after the last lockout really.

It's a good rule for youth hockey, but at the pro level is commonly overlooked.
as it should be. Many times that is the only option for an outlet pass.

CantbeatzPekka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 11:35 AM
  #21
golfmade
Go Preds Go
 
golfmade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Taiwan
Country: Taiwan
Posts: 19,460
vCash: 500
Thanks for the insight hoosier and SLake, I could tell that they were using a different system but couldn't really put my finger on what exactly it was.

golfmade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 02:59 PM
  #22
Legionnaire11
Registered User
 
Legionnaire11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hendersonville
Country: United States
Posts: 2,750
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfmade View Post
Thanks for the insight hoosier and SLake, I could tell that they were using a different system but couldn't really put my finger on what exactly it was.
Seems like there's 20+ players in Preds uniforms who can't put their finger on it either.

Legionnaire11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 05:51 PM
  #23
Seth Lake
Registered User
 
Seth Lake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 8,855
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Seth Lake
I'll be coaching tonight during the game, so here are a couple things to look for to identify if they are still using the overload coverage...

1) Both D and the C are in the corner with one on the puck, a 2nd on top of the opposition's support player, and the other in a position between those two, his man, and the net.

2) You see the weak side wing (wing furthest away from the puck) sagging down to cover the slot (net front). This is part of the coverage when the 2nd D overloads the area around the puck.

I'm betting they still use it, but play more of the traditional "Box + 1" and use the overload only when the opponent is pinned in the corner or along the half wall...

Seth Lake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-31-2013, 08:51 PM
  #24
golfmade
Go Preds Go
 
golfmade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Taiwan
Country: Taiwan
Posts: 19,460
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
Seems like there's 20+ players in Preds uniforms who can't put their finger on it either.
IMHO I wouldn't put 100% blame on them, it's already a strange, shortened season. If you're used to the coaching staff wanting things done a certain way and then all of a sudden things change up, you're bound to make the kind of mistakes we've been seeing. Not excusing them, especially with the no look, cross ice passes and so forth.

golfmade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2013, 08:22 AM
  #25
hoosierpred
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 73
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLake View Post
I'll be coaching tonight during the game, so here are a couple things to look for to identify if they are still using the overload coverage...

1) Both D and the C are in the corner with one on the puck, a 2nd on top of the opposition's support player, and the other in a position between those two, his man, and the net.

2) You see the weak side wing (wing furthest away from the puck) sagging down to cover the slot (net front). This is part of the coverage when the 2nd D overloads the area around the puck.

I'm betting they still use it, but play more of the traditional "Box + 1" and use the overload only when the opponent is pinned in the corner or along the half wall...
I hope this is what they end up doing. I happen to like the overload system, but i think it is a little more complicated with respect to assignments and the weak side forward has to be super defensively responsible which has not always happened in our games to date.

I particularly like the system when the puck carrier has his back to the net and may have trouble picking up the possible double.

Last year the preds would start with that box and one but it would eventually start to look very man on man to me and I thought it led to some problems breaking the cycle. The overload is the right counter to that, but i don't like when a team uses it exclusively just to avoid predictability.

If the preds learn it to an acceptable degree, I think it will be better for the team in the long run. Now if we could only get our offense going. Thanks for the interesting comments.

hoosierpred is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:44 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.