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Old
01-29-2013, 03:35 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Even if they swung for the fences and missed, there was no need to bring in mediocrity in favor of youth.
Right, because Kindl, Mursak, and Emmerton are anything but mediocre.

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01-29-2013, 03:39 PM
  #27
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Right, because Kindl, Mursak, and Emmerton are anything but mediocre.
No, but there is that 1% chance they end up being good. The same cannot be said about Sammy and the other dinosaurs.

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01-29-2013, 03:44 PM
  #28
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I tend to agree with Bob here.

If Holland got his dream players last offseason in Suter, Nash, and Salo, there was still no point in signing Sammy, Tootoo(well somewhat, he's been great) CC, Quncey, etc. That still doesn't give this teams youth a chance to grow and experience what it's like to play in the NHL.

When you have good top end talent nowadays, you can't afford to pay plugs 1.5-3.75 million dollars, you just cannot. What successful GMs do now is insert home grown, cheap talent to plug the holes so that they can afford to pay 4-6 guys around 6 million dollars each. The difference between a guy like Kindl and Qunicey is not worth almost 3 million dollars. The difference between a guy like Matt Carle, although overpaid at 5.5m, and Quincey, to me is certainly worth 1.75million.

It's just really frustrating to be a fan of this team right now, not because they aren't an elite team, but because management doesn't seem to either realize, or care to do anything to fix it.

When you see talented young players succeed on teams like Philly, Colorado, Vancouver, San Jose, Ottawa, Carolina, New Jersey.. etc. etc, it's absolutely infuriating that young guys won't be given a chance on this team.

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01-29-2013, 04:04 PM
  #29
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Kinda OT, but I didn't want to make a new thread about it. How much will this season effect Lidstrom's legacy? I imagine it will be propelled into god mode status if the Wings fail to make the playoffs.

I also wonder how much blame Z is going to get if the Wings have multiple years without making the playoffs.

Now, we know the truth, but the media loves to stir up controversy and general public don't visit HFBoards.

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01-29-2013, 04:20 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
When you see talented young players succeed on teams like Philly, Colorado, Vancouver, San Jose, Ottawa, Carolina, New Jersey.. etc. etc, it's absolutely infuriating that young guys won't be given a chance on this team.
Oh give me a break. Most of this young talent are high first rounders either traded for or drafted in the high 1st round (think 1-10). The only exception is Henrique, who got a shot when injuries piled up. None of our prospects took that shot and ran with it when they were given a chance.

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01-29-2013, 04:20 PM
  #31
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Bob, you could at least cite my posts before you copy and paste them into your own thread

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01-29-2013, 04:26 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Every time your turn around some one is talking about the Red Wings transition year.

I just saw a post with all the new names:
Sammy
Tootoo
Smith
CC
Brunner
Quincey
Huskins
Lashoff


The sad thing is... this isn't even the "transition."

Any transition that doesn't give icetime to Tatar and Nyquist isn't a transition. Any transition that plays CC or Huskins over Kindl isn't a transition... Any transition that cuts Mursak so we can keep Sammy isn't a transition.

In other words, we're looking at a season of mediocrity where we don't even get the one true benefit of being mediocre -- letting the kids prove themselves on the job.

That's what a transition year should be.

Because next year, we've still got Tatar and Nyquist. And guys like Andersson and Ferraro and Jarnkrok are going to be knocking on the door.

This year... is literally retarded.
I dunno, man. I really like Tootoo. He's becoming my favorite bottom 6 player behind Helm. Lashoff has been impressive and so has Huskins. Brunner reminds me of a high energy Danny Heatly, shoot, shoot, shoot. Oh, and if Wings make the playoffs (and I think they will), Sammy will be an important element in scoring. He's usually pretty clutch.

I give Kenny a 'B-' considering the circumstances.

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01-29-2013, 04:38 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Oh give me a break. Most of this young talent are high first rounders either traded for or drafted in the high 1st round (think 1-10). The only exception is Henrique, who got a shot when injuries piled up. None of our prospects took that shot and ran with it when they were given a chance.
Remind me again when our prospects were given these glorious chances to run with. Are you talking about training camp, when Gus and Tatar see that KH has kept Cleary and Bert around and brought in Sammy for top 9 duty? Was it Nyquist's cup of coffee last year, or the 1 "apparently do or die" game this year? For Tatar, was it those 9 games he was up for 2 seasons ago?

Just curious. I think people feel bad for Mursak with his injuries but not many here seem to think he'd amount to much anyway. Kindl- he's never really had a big chance due to injuries and FA signings, but I don't think he's more than a bottom pairing guy (others see more in him). The prospects that should have gotten a solid look at top 6 spots or 3rd scoring line are Gus and Tatar, and they just haven't been given the opportunity.

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01-29-2013, 04:46 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Oh give me a break. Most of this young talent are high first rounders either traded for or drafted in the high 1st round (think 1-10). The only exception is Henrique, who got a shot when injuries piled up. None of our prospects took that shot and ran with it when they were given a chance.
Not sure why you get so upset about this topic.

I fail to see what draft ranking has to do whether a player is talented or not. Does that mean Jarnkrok has to sit longer in the AHL than a player who is not as goo, but drafted sooner? That's a terrible argument.

The Wings know what they have in Nyquist and Tatar at the AHL level. They are NHL ready players. They knew what they had with Ericsson and Smith. Guys like Kindl and Mursak were never or haven't even been given a legit chance, and Kindl is a first rounder.

Everyone I've named is an NHL caliber player.

I touched on guys not given a legit chance in Kindl and Mursak, and it's even taken too long for a guy as good as Smith to get a chance, Nyquist obviously is ready, and so is Tatar. Why then, are they kept back in favour of older guys who cost more and aren't even necessarily better?

I'll tell you what, I'd much rather see Nyquist and Tatar get 40 games under their belts this year and head into next year with that much more experience and really be able to contribute.

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01-29-2013, 04:48 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
Remind me again when our prospects were given these glorious chances to run with. Are you talking about training camp, when Gus and Tatar see that KH has kept Cleary and Bert around and brought in Sammy for top 9 duty? Was it Nyquist's cup of coffee last year, or the 1 "apparently do or die" game this year? For Tatar, was it those 9 games he was up for 2 seasons ago?
Thank you for doing my work for me. If you don't consider them chances, then you are being unrealistic and unfair.

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01-29-2013, 04:53 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Thank you for doing my work for me. If you don't consider them chances, then you are being unrealistic and unfair.
Horrible logic.

Brendan Smith was ready last year and Holland brought in garbage which forced him to rot in the AHL for another season.

Nyquist and Tatar were/are ready to play, but Holland is a garbage man, and he collects the garbage other NHL teams leave on the side of the road.

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01-29-2013, 04:55 PM
  #37
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Tatar might be useful on the 3rd or 4th line. He is stronger on the puck than Nyquist.

Nyquist is useless on the bottom 6, he is a top 6 or nothing player. He is tiny and weak. He needs to bulk up.

So if you want Nyquist, then say bye-bye to Brunner. Would people put Nyquist on the top 6 and lose Brunner for nothing? There is no risk in losing Nyquist, Brunner will NEVER pass waivers.

As for Sammy, who else shoots right, Nyquist or Tatar? NEITHER DO!

People don't understand that RH players are important. This isn't xBox Live, people!!!

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01-29-2013, 04:55 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Oh give me a break. Most of this young talent are high first rounders either traded for or drafted in the high 1st round (think 1-10). The only exception is Henrique, who got a shot when injuries piled up. None of our prospects took that shot and ran with it when they were given a chance.
Sens:
Condra - 7th round
Greening - 7th round
Browiecki - 5th round
Regin - 3rd round
Z. Smith - 3rd round

Flyers:
Wellwood - 6th round
Rinaldo - 6th round
Read - undrafted


and even guys like Giroux, who have been playing for, what, 3 full seasons + now? was drafted 22nd overall. Kindl was drafted 19th overall the year before (2005).

edit: I should add, if you think a guy like Colin Greening "ran" with his chance all the way to winging Spezza last season, you're lost. Murray didn't pollute his line up with plugs and let his young guys play. They made the playoffs last year and currently have a better record than Detroit


Last edited by P U L L H A R D: 01-29-2013 at 05:07 PM.
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01-29-2013, 04:57 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
Sens:
Condra - 7th round
Greening - 7th round
Browiecki - 5th round
Regin - 3rd round
Z. Smith - 3rd round

Flyers:
Wellwood - 6th round
Rinaldo - 6th round
Read undrafted


and even guys like Giroux, who have been playing for, what, 3 full seasons + now? was drafted 22nd overall. Kindl was drafted 19th overall the year before (2005).
This is why I don't think all of the worries about losing Jim Nill is going to be some crushing blow to the Wings. Nill handles the draft, that's his job.

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01-29-2013, 05:07 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
Sens:
Condra - 7th round
Greening - 7th round
Browiecki - 5th round
Regin - 3rd round
Z. Smith - 3rd round

Flyers:
Wellwood - 6th round
Rinaldo - 6th round
Read - undrafted


and even guys like Giroux, who have been playing for, what, 3 full seasons + now? was drafted 22nd overall. Kindl was drafted 19th overall the year before (2005).
What are you trying to say, Jim Nill is bad at drafting? Lol

Also, this team would look a lot better right now if Jiř Fischer didn't have a heart condition and Igor Grigorenko wasn't in that horrible car accident.

Also, lets not forget the draft picks Holland traded away to keep this team rolling.

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01-29-2013, 05:07 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
What are you trying to say, Jim Nill is bad at drafting? Lol

Also, this team would look a lot better right now if Jiř Fischer didn't have a heart condition and Igor Grigorenko wasn't in that horrible car accident.

Also, lets not forget the draft picks Holland traded away to keep this team rolling.
Holland has traded like 3 picks in the past 9 years.

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01-29-2013, 05:09 PM
  #42
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I will be honest, Hossa may very well be the BEST player in the league for his cap hit right now...5.2 is it? Sure its one of those back diving long term contracts. BUT he is at 5.2 (Carter (LAK) is 5.2) also really good long term deal and Hossa is better. He played well for us that season and playoffs. I would love to have him on our team for that cap hit right now.
He played great in Game 4's of that playoffs, took the rest of it off for the most part.

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01-29-2013, 05:09 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
Not sure why you get so upset about this topic.
It's a dead horse that has been beaten over and over and over and over and over again. It's so obnoxious. I detest it when arm chair GMs think they can just rag on someone who is actually getting payed to do his job using questionable and downright lousy reasoning. The guy has been managing the best run organization in all of sports for 16 years. Not you. He did all the work, made the phone calls, made the final decisions. Not you. He gets the paycheck. Not you.

Quote:
I fail to see what draft ranking has to do whether a player is talented or not. Does that mean Jarnkrok has to sit longer in the AHL than a player who is not as goo, but drafted sooner? That's a terrible argument.
This is ludicrous reasoning. Do you ever notice how few prospects make the jump to the NHL the year they are drafted? Very few. Only the elite talent that are drafted in the top 10, the MacKinnons, the Landeskogs, the Bogosians, and the Kassians of the world make it, and rarely. Even armchair GMs like you should understand this simple fact of NHL drafting. You opined the young talent that Philly, Colorado, Vancouver, San Jose, Ottawa, Carolina, and New Jersey are rolling out. You're opining that we aren't trotting out our Schenns, our Couturiers, our Landeskogs, our Kassians, our Coutures, our Karlssons, our Silfverbergs, our Skinners, our Henriques. We have none of those. That's why they aren't up. They don't exist. Outside of Silfverberg and Henrique, these guys were drafted in the high first round because they were that talented. They also possessed the ability to translate their game rapidly to the NHL level. I doubt many of our prospects, sans Nyquist who is in his second year of pro hockey, could have made that jump so fast.

Quote:
The Wings know what they have in Nyquist and Tatar at the AHL level. They are NHL ready players. They knew what they had with Ericsson and Smith. Guys like Kindl and Mursak were never or haven't even been given a legit chance, and Kindl is a first rounder.
And for whatever reason, it's not in the plans for Nyquist and Tatar to play 10 minutes a night against the Shaws, the Shawn Thorntons, the Reeves, the Dorsetts, the Lapierres, the Eagers, and the Sabotkas of the world. They wanted them to spend one more year getting top six minutes. So be it. That's their plan. We don't even know what's going to happen next. All we have is what is going on now. For all we know, Holland could pull of a ridiculous move, make buyouts, ect... It's too early to crucify him. I don't even think he deserves crucifixion.


Quote:
I touched on guys not given a legit chance in Kindl and Mursak, and it's even taken too long for a guy as good as Smith to get a chance, Nyquist obviously is ready, and so is Tatar. Why then, are they kept back in favour of older guys who cost more and aren't even necessarily better?
The people who make the decisions disagree with you. Their opinion counts, not yours. I don't believe I have all the info to pass judgement.

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01-29-2013, 05:10 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
What are you trying to say, Jim Nill is bad at drafting? Lol

Also, this team would look a lot better right now if Jiř Fischer didn't have a heart condition and Igor Grigorenko wasn't in that horrible car accident.

Also, lets not forget the draft picks Holland traded away to keep this team rolling.
JMan was saying all of those teams are playing top10 picks at a young age because they are high profile guys who were taken early. I was pointing out how he was very wrong about numerous young players getting regular spots on 2 playoff teams, despite their draft status being low. And how a guy like Murray in Ottawa is running with the kids and it is working out perfectly fine. Better than expected, even.

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01-29-2013, 05:10 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Horrible logic.

Brendan Smith was ready last year and Holland brought in garbage which forced him to rot in the AHL for another season.

Nyquist and Tatar were/are ready to play, but Holland is a garbage man, and he collects the garbage other NHL teams leave on the side of the road.
What garbage? Kindl was about to be given his big shot at the big club. Finally, a first round defender was up full time! We needed a seventh defenseman, not Smith rotting in the pressbox.

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01-29-2013, 05:16 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Tatar might be useful on the 3rd or 4th line. He is stronger on the puck than Nyquist.

Nyquist is useless on the bottom 6, he is a top 6 or nothing player. He is tiny and weak. He needs to bulk up.

So if you want Nyquist, then say bye-bye to Brunner. Would people put Nyquist on the top 6 and lose Brunner for nothing? There is no risk in losing Nyquist, Brunner will NEVER pass waivers.

As for Sammy, who else shoots right, Nyquist or Tatar? NEITHER DO!

People don't understand that RH players are important. This isn't xBox Live, people!!!
Tatar has tailored his game to be useful in a third line role, really come a long way there. He could still be top six but he has made the adjustments to break in lower in the lineup.

Nyquist is night and day different in terms of lower body strength this year and a hell of a lot stronger on the puck than Brunner.

Brunner actually has the option to be sent down if they wanted to open up the competition. I don't want him to go down, but he doesn't need to clear waivers. Another thing with Brunner is he actually prefers playing his off-wing something that will never happen with all of our left handed shots.

The RH shot thing is far more important to the d-man than it is the forward situation. Sure it is nice to have them, but a player like Nyquist is better on his backhand in terms of passing and clearing the zone than a lot of guys on their forehand. As above I am more inclined to let guys play where they are comfortable if it means better production up front. If Brunner wants to be a left wing play him there.

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01-29-2013, 05:17 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
Sens:
Condra - 7th round
Greening - 7th round
Browiecki - 5th round
Regin - 3rd round
Z. Smith - 3rd round

Flyers:
Wellwood - 6th round
Rinaldo - 6th round
Read - undrafted


and even guys like Giroux, who have been playing for, what, 3 full seasons + now? was drafted 22nd overall. Kindl was drafted 19th overall the year before (2005).

edit: I should add, if you think a guy like Colin Greening "ran" with his chance all the way to winging Spezza last season, you're lost. Murray didn't pollute his line up with plugs and let his young guys play. They made the playoffs last year and currently have a better record than Detroit
It should be noted these 2 teams instituted REAL rebuilds.

Phi traded out Richards and Carter, while several injuries have allowed them to play alot of young talent.
Ottawa traded off most of their 2nd and 3rd line players (Fischer, Foligno, Kelly) (am i missing some others?) for draft picks.

Detroit has not done this yet. But both of these teams decided to rebuild after either missing the playoffs or being a very low seed in the playoffs for several years running.

Detroit STATISTICALLY has not fallen that far to being mediocre. (This year may be the first year... For much more details on Detroits quality team see my posts in the NEW-SCHOOL red wings thread.

But I do agree with the premise that both Tatar and Nyquist should get their chance this year. If we do not play them NEXT year for 70+ games, then they should be traded so they can try to make an NHL team (I do not want them traded, leaving only one option, dump Sammy, Cleary at deadline if we are 7th or worse).

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01-29-2013, 05:19 PM
  #48
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Kindl was the #6 defenseman the majority of the year last season before the trade for Quincey. If they brought up Smith last year like everyone wanted, then Kindl never would have played b/c he was firmly behind Lidstrom, Stuart, Kronwall, White and Ericsson on the depth chart. Even if they never signed White in FA to play on the top pairing with Lidstrom and played Smith the whole season instead, then Kindl was at best going to be a #6 (which he was anyway the majority of last season). He's already played over 100 NHL games and they watch him everyday in practice. They already gave him a "chance" or whatever that means.

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01-29-2013, 05:22 PM
  #49
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Holland has traded like 3 picks in the past 9 years.
Yeah in the recent last 9 years since the CBA came into play. Look at prior years (1999) Holland traded a lot of top picks to ice talent. That is just ONE example out of many...

Traded:
23th overall to Chicago
47th overall to Tampa
59th overall to NYR
91st overall to Oilers

Then those suckers drafted Henrik Zetterberg 210th overall

Source [CLICKY]

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01-29-2013, 05:24 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
JMan was saying all of those teams are playing top10 picks at a young age because they are high profile guys who were taken early. I was pointing out how he was very wrong about numerous young players getting regular spots on 2 playoff teams, despite their draft status being low. And how a guy like Murray in Ottawa is running with the kids and it is working out perfectly fine. Better than expected, even.
Gotcha

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