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Holland Really Screwed the Pooch

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Old
01-29-2013, 06:25 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
It should be noted these 2 teams instituted REAL rebuilds.

Phi traded out Richards and Carter, while several injuries have allowed them to play alot of young talent.
Ottawa traded off most of their 2nd and 3rd line players (Fischer, Foligno, Kelly) (am i missing some others?) for draft picks.

Detroit has not done this yet. But both of these teams decided to rebuild after either missing the playoffs or being a very low seed in the playoffs for several years running.

Detroit STATISTICALLY has not fallen that far to being mediocre. (This year may be the first year... For much more details on Detroits quality team see my posts in the NEW-SCHOOL red wings thread.

But I do agree with the premise that both Tatar and Nyquist should get their chance this year. If we do not play them NEXT year for 70+ games, then they should be traded so they can try to make an NHL team (I do not want them traded, leaving only one option, dump Sammy, Cleary at deadline if we are 7th or worse).
Going to the finals and being 2 wins away from a cup =! low seed/ miss playoffs (Philly 2010)

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01-29-2013, 06:27 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Brendan Smith was ready last year and Holland brought in garbage which forced him to rot in the AHL for another season.

Nyquist and Tatar were/are ready to play, but Holland is a garbage man, and he collects the garbage other NHL teams leave on the side of the road.
He just controls their contract value after the ELC burning those ELC years in the minors.

That's just plain and simple and obvious plan.

Keep them down as long as possible, where they can still play and develop and at the same time it keeps their caphits down in the future. Because when they hit in the league, those comparable players aren't the most expensive ones.

If you put our youth already in good position to score nice points, you are battling against arbitrator and high caphits pretty fast.

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01-29-2013, 06:29 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
He just controls their contract value after the ELC burning those ELC years in the minors.

That's just plain and simple and obvious plan.

Keep them down as long as possible, where they can still play and develop and at the same time it keeps their caphits down in the future. Because when they hit in the league, those comparable players aren't the most expensive ones.

If you put our youth already in good position to score nice points, you are battling against arbitrator and high caphits pretty fast.
Ken Holland is a total moron if that is what he is really doing.

Wings are not in that position where they have the luxury about worrying about cap hits on contracts for their prospects, especially defenseman.

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01-29-2013, 06:30 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Ken Holland is a total moron if that is what he is really doing.

Wings are not in that position where they have the luxury about worrying about cap hits on contracts.
It worked when the players playing ahead of them made sense. Send Helm, Leino and Ericsson down because we still have an elite team. Doesn't work now.

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01-29-2013, 06:31 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Ken Holland is a total moron if that is what he is really doing.

Wings are not in that position where they have the luxury about worrying about cap hits on contracts for their prospects.
That's how we'll build a very caphit-friendly contender for the future.

Too bad if you hate it.

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01-29-2013, 06:31 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Tatar might be useful on the 3rd or 4th line. He is stronger on the puck than Nyquist.

Nyquist is useless on the bottom 6, he is a top 6 or nothing player. He is tiny and weak. He needs to bulk up.

So if you want Nyquist, then say bye-bye to Brunner. Would people put Nyquist on the top 6 and lose Brunner for nothing? There is no risk in losing Nyquist, Brunner will NEVER pass waivers.

As for Sammy, who else shoots right, Nyquist or Tatar? NEITHER DO!

People don't understand that RH players are important. This isn't xBox Live, people!!!
Funny, Datsyuk started in a bottom six role. Maybe this team would be more successful going back to 3 scoring lines? Rotate Nyquist and Bert between Datsyuk's wing and with Helm/Tatar on the third line. Or throw Tatar on a line with Abby and Tootoo, put Nyquist on a line with Sammy and Helm...

Don't know why that is so impossible. Oh yeah, because Holland has too many skilless plugs.

Bertuzzi - Datsyuk - Nyquist
Filppula- Zetterberg - Brunner
Franzen - Helm - Sammy
Tatar - Abdelkater - Eaves

Or something like that. To me that's much more balanced scoring and gives Tatar and Nyquist real. You can roll four lines pretty evenly, IMO.

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01-29-2013, 06:33 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
That's how we build a very caphit-friendly contender for the future.

Too bad if you hate it.
Too bad the current team is garbage and you are hoping that the prospects turn into the next Z/Datsyuk.

That's the school of moronic GM'ing. Ken Holland should realize the situation the Wings are in, and realize that sticking players in the minors for 400 years doesn't work anymore.

They don't have the talent to support that system anymore.

They will be a cap friendly lottery team.

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01-29-2013, 06:35 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Ken Holland should realize the situation the Wings are in, and realize that sticking players in the minors for 400 years doesn't work anymore.
After five years you will see how excellent plan this really was.

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01-29-2013, 06:36 PM
  #59
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Thank you for doing my work for me. If you don't consider them chances, then you are being unrealistic and unfair.
You should keep more of your answers this short- it's still crazy, but gives less material for us to work with. A team would never have turnover if they considered those short runs with the Wings as being legitimate chances for top prospects to make the team.

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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
It's a dead horse that has been beaten over and over and over and over and over again. It's so obnoxious. I detest it when arm chair GMs think they can just rag on someone who is actually getting payed to do his job using questionable and downright lousy reasoning. The guy has been managing the best run organization in all of sports for 16 years. Not you. He did all the work, made the phone calls, made the final decisions. Not you. He gets the paycheck. Not you.
So... you're actually saying that your boy Kenny is using "questionable and downright lousy reasoning" in his decision-making? Man, with BFF's like you, I don't think Kenny needs any enemies.

No, I know what you were trying to say (OBVIOUSLY it was an unintentional shot at BFFGMKH by you). But you seem to be implying that we should not be questioning a GM b/c he gets paid to do his job. Must be nice to have a job that gets a free pass from criticism- I assume that the same rule applies to criticizing players also, right? They are also off-limits b/c they get a paycheck from the team, correct? Oh ****, I can expect to hear from attorneys representing Q and Cleary any day now!!

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And for whatever reason, it's not in the plans for Nyquist and Tatar to play 10 minutes a night against the Shaws, the Shawn Thorntons, the Reeves, the Dorsetts, the Lapierres, the Eagers, and the Sabotkas of the world. They wanted them to spend one more year getting top six minutes. So be it. That's their plan. We don't even know what's going to happen next. All we have is what is going on now. For all we know, Holland could pull of a ridiculous move, make buyouts, ect... It's too early to crucify him. I don't even think he deserves crucifixion.
Since you're going all biblical here and crucifixions are out, are public stonings on the table?

Yes, we must shelter our poor prospects from the big bad guys on other teams. Never mind that most of the guys you list don't play against top 6 players so it wouldn't be an issue. Hell, I'll bet Tatar would be fine playing on Helm's wing if you asked him, even if you warned him that there is the chance that he would get hit by a guy larger than him (something that every smaller player in the league has to deal with, not just Wings players). Tatar would be much better than Cleary slowing down the 3rd line.

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The people who make the decisions disagree with you. Their opinion counts, not yours. I don't believe I have all the info to pass judgement.
Yep, you've made it crystal clear that you toe the Red Wings company line (probably better than some who are on their payroll) and any opinions that question some RW brass decisions are to be discarded with contempt. That kinda nails it, right?

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01-29-2013, 06:37 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
After five years you will see how excellent plan this really was.
So five years from now I can expect the Wings to be contenders? Gee wiz, that's great to hear.

Of course you are assuming the prospects turn out to be useful and are on great contracts because they sucked too much to get good contracts after their ELC's were up.

Sign me up for this **** show.

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01-29-2013, 06:39 PM
  #61
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To me, Bringing in Sammy and leaving Nyquist off is equivalent to Edmonton re-signing Cam Barker this offseason and leaving J. Schultz off the team. Sure you might get some vet experience over the kid, but who cares? Nyquist is going to be a good player in the NHL, why not let him get some good minutes with Flip/Z/Datsyuk? Makes no sense to me, at all.

edit:
Sammys impact > Barkers impact
Schultz hypothetical/ estimated impact > Nyquists hypothetical/ estimated impact

but you kool aid drinkers know what I mean


Last edited by P U L L H A R D: 01-29-2013 at 06:46 PM.
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01-29-2013, 06:51 PM
  #62
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Funny, Datsyuk started in a bottom six role.
Yep, He played on the fourth line with some scrub who was Bobby Hull's son.

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01-29-2013, 06:53 PM
  #63
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Sens:
Condra - 7th round
Greening - 7th round
Browiecki - 5th round
Regin - 3rd round
Z. Smith - 3rd round
So you're going to cite a collection of 2nd/3rd line tweeners drafted by a team that has not made the playoffs on a consistent basis for the last couple of years as to why we should throw our prospects to the wolves. Ok.

Quote:
Flyers:
Wellwood - 6th round
Rinaldo - 6th round
Read - undrafted
Wellwood is a scrub who hasn't played 40 games in the NHL. Rinaldo is a 4th line scrapper. And let's be honest, how often does an undrafted talent of Read's calibre show up? Maybe one every couple of years. Philadelphia also put themselves in the situation where they needed any depth possible after dumping Carter and Richards.


Quote:
and even guys like Giroux,
who have been playing for, what, 3 full seasons + now? was drafted 22nd overall.
If you're going to compare any of our prospects to the Caliber of Giroux... Well don't. I love our prospect pool, but I highly doubt (Though it could happen... Perhaps, but unlikely) we have an 100 pt talent in our farm system.
Quote:
Kindl was drafted 19th overall the year before (2005).
Poor Jakub Kindl. If him sucking fits someone's point, they'll use it. If him being a firstrounder fits someone's point, they'll use it.
Quote:
edit: I should add, if you think a guy like Colin Greening "ran" with his chance all the way to winging Spezza last season, you're lost.
From my understanding, Milan Michalek and Daniel Alfredsson were Spezza's linemates. Neither here nor there. The only reason Ottawa is littered with young 2nd/3rd line tweeners is because they were terrible in 10-11. I'm guessing being terrible in 08-09 also played a role in that as well. If you want to hold a team that hasn't made the playoffs on a regular basis as a standard of excellence... Well then I question your definition of what excellence is.

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Murray didn't pollute his line up with plugs and let his young guys play. They made the playoffs last year
As the 8th seed.

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and currently have a better record than Detroit
...have you ever heard of small sample sizes? The season just started. You'll use anything to make a point, good grief.

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01-29-2013, 06:54 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
Funny, Datsyuk started in a bottom six role.
Wasn't that line Hull - Datsyuk - Robitaille that year?

I'd agree with you if Holland would have said screw the Salary Cap he doesn't need to follow the rules and signed Crosby and Malkin so Nyquist could play their wing on the 3rd line


But since there's a salary cap, I'm afraid your point is moot.

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01-29-2013, 07:03 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
So you're going to cite a collection of 2nd/3rd line tweeners drafted by a team that has not made the playoffs on a consistent basis for the last couple of years as to why we should throw our prospects to the wolves. Ok.



Wellwood is a scrub who hasn't played 40 games in the NHL. Rinaldo is a 4th line scrapper. And let's be honest, how often does an undrafted talent of Read's calibre show up? Maybe one every couple of years. Philadelphia also put themselves in the situation where they needed any depth possible after dumping Carter and Richards.



If you're going to compare any of our prospects to the Caliber of Giroux... Well don't. I love our prospect pool, but I highly doubt (Though it could happen... Perhaps, but unlikely) we have an 100 pt talent in our farm system.
Poor Jakub Kindl. If him sucking fits someone's point, they'll use it. If him being a firstrounder fits someone's point, they'll use it.

From my understanding, Milan Michalek and Daniel Alfredsson were Spezza's linemates. Neither here nor there. The only reason Ottawa is littered with young 2nd/3rd line tweeners is because they were terrible in 10-11. I'm guessing being terrible in 08-09 also played a role in that as well. If you want to hold a team that hasn't made the playoffs on a regular basis as a standard of excellence... Well then I question your definition of what excellence is.


As the 8th seed.


...have you ever heard of small sample sizes? The season just started. You'll use anything to make a point, good grief.
I'm not saying it is a scientific formula that has been proven time and again, I'm just stating that it has worked for others (to give young guys a shot, no matter how large or small the role, so far as to take teams to the playoffs, and take #1 seeds 7 games in the case of Ottawa last year.)

Michalek - Spezza - Greening
Foligno - Turris - Alfredsson

is what they used for a large chunk of the season last year. He is now in a 3rd line/ middle 6 role, as Silfverberg has been given the most time on the first line so far (I think they put Greening back in with Spezza and Michalek their last game due to Silfverberg not exactly leaping out of the gate so far) and Latendresse (sp?) has replaced Foligno on the 2nd line.

Greening is good, but he isn't exactly special. I would easily compare his impact to Nyquist's. Different style, though, obviously. He was at the All-Star game last year with the "young guns" section or whatever they're calling it nowadays.


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01-29-2013, 07:03 PM
  #66
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You should keep more of your answers this short- it's still crazy, but gives less material for us to work with. A team would never have turnover if they considered those short runs with the Wings as being legitimate chances for top prospects to make the team.
They had their shot. Management didn't think they did enough to maintain their spot. So be it. We've experienced no negative consequences out of these decisions except for the obnoxious few who look at other teams's superstar young players and unfairly compare them to our best talent and expect them to jump in and perform like said superstars.


Quote:
No, I know what you were trying to say (OBVIOUSLY it was an unintentional shot at BFFGMKH by you). But you seem to be implying that we should not be questioning a GM b/c he gets paid to do his job. Must be nice to have a job that gets a free pass from criticism- I assume that the same rule applies to criticizing players also, right? They are also off-limits b/c they get a paycheck from the team, correct? Oh ****, I can expect to hear from attorneys representing Q and Cleary any day now!!
I'm implying that Holland hasn't done anything that has caused us to fall flat off the face of the earth. We haven't taken a dive. None of his decisions has caused harm to the team. I'll withhold judgement until there is something worth judging him for. Not playing youngsters isn't worth criticizing him for.

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Yes, we must shelter our poor prospects from the big bad guys on other teams. Never mind that most of the guys you list don't play against top 6 players so it wouldn't be an issue.
Do you have a firm grasp of our top six situation? If Nyquist or Tatar were up, they would be on the bottom 6.
Quote:
Hell, I'll bet Tatar would be fine playing on Helm's wing if you asked him, even if you warned him that there is the chance that he would get hit by a guy larger than him (something that every smaller player in the league has to deal with, not just Wings players). Tatar would be much better than Cleary slowing down the 3rd line.
Unfortunately, Cleary signed a contract way back when he was good and is under contract this year.

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01-29-2013, 07:10 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
I'm not saying it is a scientific formula that has been proven time and again, I'm just stating that it has worked for others (to give young guys a shot, no matter how large or small the role, so far as to take teams to the playoffs, and take #1 seeds 7 games in the case of Ottawa last year.)
I'm not referring to their playoff performance. I'm referring to the fact they were two losses away from not making the playoffs. A swing of two victories. That much. They wouldn't have made it. The young guys didn't punch them a ticket to guaranteed playoffs. They barely made it in.

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Michalek - Spezza - Greening
Foligno - Turris - Alfredsson

is what they used for a large chunk of the season last year.
And he scored a resounding... wait for it... 37 points last year! That's 17 goals scored! Yes... That must have meant all the difference compared to a Bertuzzi or a Samuelsson... Oh wait... That's no difference at all. Perhaps they had an awful season the previous year, held a fire sale, and were left with Greening as one of their only options.

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01-29-2013, 07:14 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Wasn't that line Hull - Datsyuk - Robitaille that year?

I'd agree with you if Holland would have said screw the Salary Cap he doesn't need to follow the rules and signed Crosby and Malkin so Nyquist could play their wing on the 3rd line


But since there's a salary cap, I'm afraid your point is moot.
Hull-Datsyuk-Devereaux was the 3rd line

Remember Babcock wanted Smith last year, Holland wasted a 1st round pick on Quincey while Smith was rotting in Grand Rapids. To me that bad management. Sign Samuelson (with a NMC) over Tatar/Nyquist is even more stupid.

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01-29-2013, 07:15 PM
  #69
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I'm not referring to their playoff performance. I'm referring to the fact they were two losses away from not making the playoffs. A swing of two victories. That much. They wouldn't have made it. The young guys didn't punch them a ticket to guaranteed playoffs. They barely made it in.

And he scored a resounding... wait for it... 37 points last year! That's 17 goals scored! Yes... That must have meant all the difference compared to a Bertuzzi or a Samuelsson... Oh wait... That's no difference at all. Perhaps they had an awful season the previous year, held a fire sale, and were left with Greening as one of their only options.
Before Anderson got hurt they were neck and neck with Boston for division lead. They then traded for Ben Bishop who went ~.500 over 10 games or so, and their season was fairly stagnant from that point forward, much like ours was after all of our injuries late in the season.

Would you rather not have Nyquist scoring ~30-40 points playing on lines 1 through 3 and getting some PP time (1st or 2nd unit, doesn't matter which) than have some plug do it for 2 or 3x the price, all the while taking a spot from Nyquist to do the same thing and gain confidence?

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01-29-2013, 07:17 PM
  #70
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He just controls their contract value after the ELC burning those ELC years in the minors.

That's just plain and simple and obvious plan.

Keep them down as long as possible, where they can still play and develop and at the same time it keeps their caphits down in the future. Because when they hit in the league, those comparable players aren't the most expensive ones.

If you put our youth already in good position to score nice points, you are battling against arbitrator and high caphits pretty fast.
That sounds good in theory, but is really only useful on the ice if the guys playing ahead of your top prospects are really good players and not just run of the mill plug guys.

KH is also missing out on getting to see what he has in his better prospects by burning the ELC's in the minors. He is choosing to hand out 2nd contracts to guys who have very limited NHL experience in general, so he has to project what he thinks they'll turn out to be as players. Play the deserving guys while on their ELC's and he can get a better handle on how they may turn out as pros.

KH held Smith back last year and I think it's hurt the Wings this year- he could be a year better if he played last year and learned from Lidstrom. Maybe if Nyquist had a legit shot last year to show what he could do, KH doesn't sign Sammy and Gus plays somewhere in the top 9. Sure, they could potentially do very well, put up some #'s and get a higher 2nd contract, but Kenny has paid guys in the past more than they deserved (E's 2nd contract comes to mind).

Del Zotto had a few productive season with the Rangers and his 2nd deal was reasonable for a top 4 guy, so I don't really buy that the cost savings are great, and they certainly don't outweigh the benefits of seeing guys perform against NHL talent and knowing earlier what kind of players they can be.

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01-29-2013, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
Before Anderson got hurt they were neck and neck with Boston for division lead. They then traded for Ben Bishop who went ~.500 over 10 games or so, and their season was fairly stagnant from that point forward, much like ours was after all of our injuries late in the season.

Would you rather not have Nyquist scoring ~30-40 points playing on lines 1 through 3 and getting some PP time (1st or 2nd unit, doesn't matter which) than have some plug do it for 2 or 3x the price, all the while taking a spot from Nyquist to do the same thing and gain confidence?
I don't really care who is scoring 30-40 points as long as someone is scoring 30-40 points and we are making the playoffs.

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01-29-2013, 07:23 PM
  #72
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I don't really care who is scoring 30-40 points as long as someone is scoring 30-40 points and we are making the playoffs.
So you'd rather have some guy who will be here for maybe 2 more years play with Pavel than let Nyquist learn as much as he can from those guys (Pav, Z, etc.) That is negligent to say the very least. Ask Pav and Z how much playing with Stevie Y meant to them, I'm sure they'll tell you.

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01-29-2013, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown View Post
Hull-Datsyuk-Devereaux was the 3rd line

Remember Babcock wanted Smith last year, Holland wasted a 1st round pick on Quincey while Smith was rotting in Grand Rapids. To me that bad management. Sign Samuelson (with a NMC) over Tatar/Nyquist is even more stupid.

I don't like your proposal, it is foolish.

One, Quincey was a RFA, not a one year "patch". Holland was preparing for the loss of Lidstrom AND Stuart. Smith is fine and dandy but he can be brought up and sent down without risk. And Quincey is the better defenseman right now.

Two, Nyquist is weeakkkkk. He's a feather weight against heavy weights. He is boy among men. And who is he going to bump off the top 6? Zetterberg? Brunner? Who?? Because he certainly ain't no bottom 6 player.

Three, Tatar has been good but I think he is hyped. He would be good instead of Abdelkader or Cleary, but why risk lose players that have an effective role?? It just makes more sense to use him as a depth guy during injuries and let him get top line minutes in the AHL.

Four, Sammy is a RH shot. Wings have only a few and adding him patches a hole that Tatar or Nyquist can't fulfill. Sammy is clutch in the playoffs. God knows we can't depend on Franzen anymore...

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01-29-2013, 07:36 PM
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Some people on this board are incredibly short-sighted. The same people who are complaining that Brendan Smith doesn't look as good as he should, even though he has only played 20 games as opposed to the 80 or more games he should have logged by now, are going to be the same ones complaining a year or two from now when Nyquist and Tatar are up with only a handful of games and don't look as good as they expect.

People defend Holland citing Cleary's 26 goal season and Sammy's 30 goal season even though they are a shell of what they were. But having Cleary and Sammy in your line-up is going to be 0 benefit to the team in 2 years, whereas having Tatar and Nyquist in the lineup as regulars would make them and the team much better off for the future, and really not any worse right now. There's really no point at all to have these aging veterans on the roster, because they aren't contributing much, and we have better players in GR than we have had probably since Fil and Hudler were down there.

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01-29-2013, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post

Two, Nyquist is weeakkkkk. He's a feather weight against heavy weights. He is boy among men.

..
You overexagggerate this so much that it is actually hilarious. People said that last year, how many do you see that are saying the same thing this year other than yourself.

You hate Smith and Nyquist, I think we got it.

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