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Kevin Shattenkirk vs Erik Johnson

View Poll Results: Who's the better player?
Kevin Shattenkirk 94 52.51%
Erik Johnson 85 47.49%
Voters: 179. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-28-2013, 01:59 AM
  #76
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I loved shatty a lot when he was with the Avs because the kid is just such a great natural thinker of the game, but EJ's on another level defensively. He's become absolutely astounding along the boards and behind the net, is great at breaking up 2 on 1s, and in general covering for others in transition, and my only gripe with his defense is that he doesn't play a very chippy game and doesn't punish guys for trying to camp out in front of Varly. He neutralizes them, but with his size, strength, skating and instincts I'd like to see him play a grittier and dirtier game.

Offensively there's still a lot to be done with his shot, but he's a monster at charging the puck up the ice and makes a very nice outlet pass, but man is that shot not getting it done, the slapper never gets through and too often he goes for a pass when he pinches in in situations where a hard, high wrister would do a lot more good.

He was trying to do too much at the start of last season, but he's adjusted well to having to clean up after ****** partners as long as he stays healthy.

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01-28-2013, 02:49 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by avsfan09 View Post
Atleast your being reasonable. I am really looking forward to seeing how he performs this season. If he is consistent than I think he's a number one.

He was great last year until suffering an Injury. I hope that was what was holding him back the past season. He's still quite young and D-men in the past have been known to develop much later.
That's EJ's main issue. Consistency. That and hockey sense. Avs fans all seem in agreement that his hockey sense has come a long way since the trade, so that is a good thing.

As others have alluded to, with EJ, one week he is a world beater, worthy of the #1 overall pick. And other weeks, he is just a guy.

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Originally Posted by avsfan09 View Post
Decisions. Strong in the corners good outlet passes. He's been steady for us.
Good. His main problem in St. Louis was decision making. It makes sense that he would be taking longer to develop in that area since he went the USNTDP and NCAA route, getting significantly fewer games than a major juniors player, or a player from overseas playing in the KHL, SEL, FEL, etc.

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Originally Posted by jfisher6 View Post
Blues fans: If EJ was a natural lefty, would you guys want him on your team more than Shattenkirk? Just curious
No. Shattenkirk makes us much deeper on defense, giving us two fantasic PMD on two different pairings. The Blues are currently built around a depth set-up. Having one of the top PMD in the league on our second pairing makes our transition game incredibly difficult to deal with, and is a major factor in the Blues leading the league in shot differential.

Great question though.


Shattenkirk has such great hockey sense. Significantly better than EJ's. While EJ has developed since the trade, so has Shattenkirk. EJ has much better physical tools to work with, and so looks more intimadating on the ice. It would be interesting to see how EJ would look under Hitchcock.

I'm not voting since I haven't seen much of EJ in the past 12 months, but I can tell you this: Shattenkirk is a stud, and would play on the top pairing on many teams in the NHL.

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Old
01-28-2013, 03:21 AM
  #78
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Shattenkirk because i prefer OFD but Johnson is better against tougher competition.

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01-28-2013, 03:45 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post


If Shattenkirk ends up as good as Rafalski he's a #1 defenseman. I can't believe how much you are underrating him.
No dice. Rafalski played on very good teams and was very good at moving the puck, but he performed as a #1 defenseman only after the lockout, when he was 32 and had a ton of playoff experience. Before that, he was a second pairing guy. His overall two-way impact was superb because of his puck control and smart decisions, and that showed for a few years with Detroit even more than it did with New Jersey, but Shattenkirk is a better checking player. He boxes out players better and blocks shots better. Shattenkirk was a significant reason that the Blues had a historic defensive season last year.

Rafalski's overall peak was undoubtedly better overall than Shattenkirk is right now, but Shattenkirk can do more defensively - and four years younger than when Rafalski even made the NHL.

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01-28-2013, 08:56 AM
  #80
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Close but Shattenkirk

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Old
01-28-2013, 09:16 AM
  #81
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I don't think that any of those two should be considered as top-20. They are borderline #1 defensemen who are far from being a real #1 on D.

Agreed, I've seen a lot more of Shatty in the last two years than Johnson, but damn, the EJ I remember (Post-Injury) was nowhere close of being the contributor that Shattenkirk is. And I may have seen a lot more of Shatty, but I've seen my fair share of EJ and from what I've seen in it, I didn't see a general on D, but rather a very good defenseman who does a lot. But, clearly, lacked the game control part.

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Old
01-28-2013, 09:58 AM
  #82
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EJ, but HF loves their offense.

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01-28-2013, 01:11 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Chocas View Post
I don't think that any of those two should be considered as top-20. They are borderline #1 defensemen who are far from being a real #1 on D.

Agreed, I've seen a lot more of Shatty in the last two years than Johnson, but damn, the EJ I remember (Post-Injury) was nowhere close of being the contributor that Shattenkirk is. And I may have seen a lot more of Shatty, but I've seen my fair share of EJ and from what I've seen in it, I didn't see a general on D, but rather a very good defenseman who does a lot. But, clearly, lacked the game control part.
I can see that, EJ doesn't really ever dominate unless he's gets mad, and then he just gets scary, but he almost never gets mad. Still EJ does a great job considering how moronic his partners have been cleaning up for them and trying to scrape together whatever semblance of defense you can with a defense that doesn't skate very good and is scared of the puck.

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01-28-2013, 01:22 PM
  #84
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E. Johnson is the better player.

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01-28-2013, 03:17 PM
  #85
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what I find interesting about this trade is that the Blues got 3 offensive guys (Shattenkirk, Stewart & Rattie), while Colorado got 3 defensive guys (Johnson, McClemment & Siemens). Makes comparisons a little trickier.

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01-28-2013, 03:47 PM
  #86
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surprised this is so close, offensively shattenkirk's game destroys EJ's, i still take EJ in our end of the rink.

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Old
01-29-2013, 12:20 AM
  #87
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Shatty is absolutely perfect for the Blues. And EJ is perfect for the Avs.

2 completely different players so a comparison isn't fair.

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Old
01-29-2013, 01:02 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by NothingLikeAnEJ View Post
Shatty is absolutely perfect for the Blues. And EJ is perfect for the Avs.

2 completely different players so a comparison isn't fair.
This.

Avs need EJ more, Blues need Shatty more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGoBLUES91 View Post
Another 2 points tonight making that 8 for Shattenkirk along with airtight defense.

But Johnson is a better two-way (meaning good at offense and defense, of course) with his 1.
Shatty is playing on a contending team that actually has structure.

EJ is playing on one of the bottom teams at the moment with Downie, Landeskog, and RoR out.

Again, these comparison are pretty bad since they're different players. Shatty is better offensively, and no matter how good he is defensively, he can't bring things that EJ can.

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01-29-2013, 01:14 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by PAZ View Post
This.

Avs need EJ more, Blues need Shatty more.



Shatty is playing on a contending team that actually has structure.

EJ is playing on one of the bottom teams at the moment with Downie, Landeskog, and RoR out.

Again, these comparison are pretty bad since they're different players. Shatty is better offensively, and no matter how good he is defensively, he can't bring things that EJ can.

Yeah I am sure the Avs would hate having a D-man that produces more and is on the ice more when his team scores and the other team doesnt.

It's not really a "comparison" it's a poll. Overall who is better? Discussions ensue and in my opinion saying one is good for one team and the other fits the other is a cop-out.

Player vs. Player, regardless of team - Who is better? Statistically its Shatty. In hopeful Avs fan eyes its EJ.

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01-29-2013, 01:28 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by FilthyNote View Post
Yeah I am sure the Avs would hate having a D-man that produces more and is on the ice more when his team scores and the other team doesnt.

It's not really a "comparison" it's a poll. Overall who is better? Discussions ensue and in my opinion saying one is good for one team and the other fits the other is a cop-out.

Player vs. Player, regardless of team - Who is better? Statistically its Shatty. In hopeful Avs fan eyes its EJ.
I've missed you FilthyNote, it's been a while haha

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01-29-2013, 01:33 AM
  #91
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Few people have the conviction to stick by their guns regardless of what happens the way FilthyNote does.

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01-29-2013, 01:39 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by FilthyNote View Post
Yeah I am sure the Avs would hate having a D-man that produces more and is on the ice more when his team scores and the other team doesnt.

It's not really a "comparison" it's a poll. Overall who is better? Discussions ensue and in my opinion saying one is good for one team and the other fits the other is a cop-out.

Player vs. Player, regardless of team - Who is better? Statistically its Shatty. In hopeful Avs fan eyes its EJ.
Clearly. Thats why this poll is so close

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Old
01-29-2013, 12:44 PM
  #93
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I'd love Shattenkirk in most offensive situations, but when you need your defender to actually stop the opposition you call in EJ everyday of the week.

Meanwhile EJ can still hold his own through the neutral zone and offensively on a team that knows what they are doing (aka, not this Avs team).

EJ, I just hate how we have to keep saying the same thing. It's not like Shattenkirk is bad or anything, EJ is simply a different defender that plays better in a role more suitable for our needs and overall defensive value.

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01-29-2013, 05:30 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Torr View Post
EJ, but HF loves their offense.
Well it is a huge part of the game...And its not like Shatty is horrible on D...He is a top 4 dmen based on D and he continues to get better...His offense is worlds better then EJ.

And to the person who said neither are top 20 and neither are number 1's I agree with this statement...I keep waiting for EJ to do something on offense but I am starting to doubt he will ever turn into anything more then a 30-40 point dman. I hope I am wrong cause I still want him to turn into a real number 1...I just dont see him improving on the same things he has had trouble with his whole career on offense and he should be improving by now...And before Avs fans come in and say he has improved I am not talking about on d I am talking his offensive game...And yes I do still watch him play.

His D has gotten better and he is a rock who can play 25 minutes a night but his O is just not there.

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01-29-2013, 09:12 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Few people have the conviction to stick by their guns regardless of what happens the way FilthyNote does.
I'm curious what's happened? Shattenkirk had the edge in virtually every statistical category a player can be measured in last season, including advanced stats relating to defense. This season he has 8 points in 6 games, Johnson at last years pace would have scored that many in 22 games. For anyone to think he's better than Shattenkirk given what we know is just astonishing to me. Even by eye Shattenkirk is easily the far more noticable player, terrific passer and hockey sense. Johnson makes the odd nice move but he's certainly nothing special in his own zone like he's being made out to be and his offense has been mediocre despite ample opportunity to score.

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01-29-2013, 11:54 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by SillyRabbit View Post
E. Johnson is the better player. That's why it took Shattenkirk AND Stewart to get him.
That's why everyone agrees that Alexei Yashin is better than Jason Spezza or Zdeno Chara, right?

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Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
Shatty is also better defensively and physically than Rafalski ever was, so the line that he's a powerplay specialist is going nowhere.
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Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
No dice. Rafalski played on very good teams and was very good at moving the puck, but he performed as a #1 defenseman only after the lockout, when he was 32 and had a ton of playoff experience. Before that, he was a second pairing guy. His overall two-way impact was superb because of his puck control and smart decisions, and that showed for a few years with Detroit even more than it did with New Jersey, but Shattenkirk is a better checking player. He boxes out players better and blocks shots better. Shattenkirk was a significant reason that the Blues had a historic defensive season last year.

Rafalski's overall peak was undoubtedly better overall than Shattenkirk is right now, but Shattenkirk can do more defensively - and four years younger than when Rafalski even made the NHL.
Rafalski was an excellent defensemen in his late 20s with the Devils. He finished 9th in Norris voting (and second among Devils defensemen, behind Stevens but ahead of Niedermayer) in 2001 (his second season). The next season neither Rafalski nor Niedermayer received Norris votes, but Rafalski finished ahead in postseason AS voting. Rafalski would lose the battle the following two seasons, culminating in Niedermayer's Norris win. Rafalski continued to pop up as a leader in Norris voting through 2010. He played excellent in both ends, although in his final season (2010-11) his defense did start to slip a bit. Shattenkirk isn't at Rafalski's level yet, but he's well on his way and if he keeps up will pass him. But Rafalski was an excellent two-way defenseman; he was very underrated in his own end.

As for Johnson, he is overrated. He gets talked up like some kind of defensive monster with all kinds of offensive skills; like he's the next Pronger. It's just silly. He's a decent #2 defenseman at best. People try and prop him up as a #1, or as a top-15 guy... it's insanity. It's like Toronto fans with Phaneuf, or how Columbus fans could sometimes get about Nash when he was there. Simply disengaged from reality.

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01-30-2013, 12:16 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
I'm curious what's happened? Shattenkirk had the edge in virtually every statistical category a player can be measured in last season, including advanced stats relating to defense. This season he has 8 points in 6 games, Johnson at last years pace would have scored that many in 22 games. For anyone to think he's better than Shattenkirk given what we know is just astonishing to me. Even by eye Shattenkirk is easily the far more noticable player, terrific passer and hockey sense. Johnson makes the odd nice move but he's certainly nothing special in his own zone like he's being made out to be and his offense has been mediocre despite ample opportunity to score.
Every Avs fan should read this. Every one of them.

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01-30-2013, 12:21 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by LetsGoBLUES91 View Post
Every Avs fan should read this. Every one of them.
Oh trust me, we have. We all know Eskimo44. He has a reputation. He is also the creator of the jokes you'll see from Avs fans about how Petry is so great, since according to Eskimo44, Petry>Johnson. Avs fans don't take him seriously. Its really tough to actually listen to what he says. The guy watches no Avs games but apparently knows everything. Do YOU think there are 100 better defensman in the league than Johnson? Eskimo does. Glad you agree with him though. Its hilarious. The biggest haters of EJ on HF are Blues fans. Sure, there are a few others from other fan bases, but most are Blues fans. Quite amusing actually.

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01-30-2013, 12:33 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Oh trust me, we have. We all know Eskimo44. He has a reputation. He is also the creator of the jokes you'll see from Avs fans about how Petry is so great, since according to Eskimo44, Petry>Johnson. Avs fans don't take him seriously. Its really tough to actually listen to what he says. The guy watches no Avs games but apparently knows everything. Do YOU think there are 100 better defensman in the league than Johnson? Eskimo does. Glad you agree with him though. Its hilarious. The biggest haters of EJ on HF are Blues fans. Sure, there are a few others from other fan bases, but most are Blues fans. Quite amusing actually.
Well to the Blues fans for the most part that come into these threads still think of Johnson as the player he was with the Blues which is a player that never came close to living up to the hype and a first overall busted on the team...I also would not say most Blues fans as there are more blues fans then not who think EJ is a good player just not a true number 1...

And then there are some who do nothing but dog him out...A lot of Blues fans get tired of even hearing about him and are sick of this same argument being rehashed...However the fans who still feel the need to dog him out are going to come into these threads and crap on him...All fan bases are the same...There are always going to be some in a fanbase who feel the need to do the same thing certain Blues posters are doing...I personally get involved in these conversations because I am still a Johnson fan...

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01-30-2013, 12:36 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Oh trust me, we have. We all know Eskimo44. He has a reputation. He is also the creator of the jokes you'll see from Avs fans about how Petry is so great, since according to Eskimo44, Petry>Johnson. Avs fans don't take him seriously. Its really tough to actually listen to what he says. The guy watches no Avs games but apparently knows everything. Do YOU think there are 100 better defensman in the league than Johnson? Eskimo does. Glad you agree with him though. Its hilarious. The biggest haters of EJ on HF are Blues fans. Sure, there are a few others from other fan bases, but most are Blues fans. Quite amusing actually.
Maybe because we're the only fanbase that has seen him play as much as Colorado fans...

Not to change this into an EJ bashing thread, but you guys do overrate him. I have really yet to see a legitimate argument of how he's a #1 d-man. Really all you guys ever say is "You need to start watching Avs games because he's turned into a dominant defender". Sorry but that doesn't cut it. Stats, and more importantly, eyes, show that he really isn't anything great. Johnson's slight edge defensively just is not enough to cover the large gap on offense between the two. Johnson isn't even more physical than Shattenkirk these days even though all we hear about is how EJ is such a monster with his size. He doesn't even use it. Johnson is a better shot-blocker and therefore sees more PK time, but really, that's it; he's nothing special. Shattenkirk continues to improve defensively and plays the same amount of minutes as EJ (22 per game). I do agree Johnson is a bit better defender, but overall, he isn't the better player...He's just not, no matter how much you guys try to say it's just because people don't watch the Avs. The difference on defense between the two continues to decrease while Shattenkirk continues to be far superior offensively and widen that gap. And from what I've seen between the two, Shattenkirk is more consistent, while both offer leadership. I would rather have Shattenkirk than Johnson. EJ at this point is a #2 still.

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