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Alain Vigneault Discussion - Part 2

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01-29-2013, 07:34 PM
  #851
Tiranis
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
That's fair. Should we expect to see him out there with under 5 minutes left, protecting a one goal lead? He's been more than I expected but I don't think so, not yet.
See my edit. I think he could've handled a few short shifts to give the other guys more of a break. Maybe not in the last 2 minutes, but AV cut him off at 5 minutes and IMO that was too early given how the game was going. (And also, he looked better and better defensively as the game wore on so in that regard it also didn't make sense to me. His face-offs also got better as the game went on.)

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01-29-2013, 07:35 PM
  #852
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I guess the phrase "getting too much credit" just didn't seem to make sense to me given his contributions.
I should have worded that better, especially since I've been one giving him a lot of credit. He has been good but I think people need to keep in mind that he's only played 4 games. He still has a lot to learn. That's more what I meant.

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01-29-2013, 07:37 PM
  #853
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
But Kesler back makes the entire line up shift down one peg of responsibility.

Sedin's either stay with Kassian, or Burrows goes back there.

I wouldn't be surprised if they keep Burrows at 3C, and see if they can get Schroeder some chemistry with Kesler and Raymond.

The offense isn't there yet from the checking line, but Higgins looked way better last night than at any other point this season.

If we can get that 3rd line to start grinding a bit more in the offensive zone, we'll be fine.
No question, the domino effect at play (reminds me when we had so many injuries that Glass became a fixture on the 3rd line).

That's also why I hope Lapierre is injured otherwise I'm po'd at his total absence. LY he was carrying the 4th line and would have been out there in the later stages of last night's game, this year he can't even carry himself.

One thing everyone forgets is we signed Malhotra for a reason - weren't satisfied with Wellwood as 3C. So even when Kes comes back, we need a 3C and as you say, it might have to be Burr (still think its a unnecessary pressure and risk to put that burden on the shoulders of young Schroeder).

Hopefully everything falls into place real soon.

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01-29-2013, 07:39 PM
  #854
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^^ if you watch video of the tieing goal, both Burr and Higgins were completely gassed and neither had the energy to go and cover the point. That one is on AV (or was there an icing?).

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01-29-2013, 07:49 PM
  #855
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
See my edit. I think he could've handled a few short shifts to give the other guys more of a break. Maybe not in the last 2 minutes, but AV cut him off at 5 minutes and IMO that was too early given how the game was going. (And also, he looked better and better defensively as the game wore on so in that regard it also didn't make sense to me. His face-offs also got better as the game went on.)
I'm going to watch it again but from what I remember he missed one shift. Manny went out one time with Raymond/Weise. What you're saying is reasonable, I think that's reasonable too.

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01-29-2013, 09:04 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
This is a leap of faith that people have taken based on AV conceding that he has given the room to the players. I don't know that it is accurate. I know they've made videos to show the players to get them amped up, for example. Rah rah speeches aren't the only way to motivate and eventually lose their effectiveness anyway.

This imo is and example of making judgements with a lack of information.
What other ways would you say he's used to motivate players? Benching them or calling them out in the media in order to send a message seem to be his go-to methods.

I can't claim inside knowledge like "He's lost the room" or "The players have tuned him out", but going by our captain's own admission - IIRC - he doesn't come in the room and really say anything and instead just leaves that up to the players. But to me the more important thing is that he can spark the team from the bench when it's needed, for instance when all the momentum is going against us or we're getting blown out. IMO he could stand to instill more 'fight' or 'pushback' in this team when things are going poorly, particularly in the playoffs, even if it's up to them to go out there and execute. This is all from what we've seen in the postseason. If these other supposed motivation methods we don't know are not helping, then either he's not doing it at all, or it's not effective. Neither of which are good signs.

In fact I might even go so far as to refer to a Slovakian web article from a few years ago that Tiranis brought up in the past, where Demitra spoke out against AV and how he actually "demoralized" the team...

Actually, I haven't heard of these videos though - what are these?

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01-29-2013, 09:12 PM
  #857
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^ didn't know Demitra did that. I'm not surprised, i remember he said to the media how he didn't like how AV keeps switching the lines when he was there and that was when he was still on the team. AV seems to leave alot of bitterness in players that have left the club. The out spoken ones are Wille Mitchell, Naslund, and O'brien comes to mind. KEsler is next.

AV needs to learn to communitate with his players because right now it seems like they are often on different pages. Enough of this let the players run their own thing. When he makes comments to media and makes questionable roster moves, the players are gonna be more bitter towards him because of the lack of communication. more likely they take things the wrong way like Kesler did off season.
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...ults-critique/


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01-29-2013, 09:22 PM
  #858
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He's not supposed to be their buddy and you can find stories like that about every coach.

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01-29-2013, 09:35 PM
  #859
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He's not supposed to be their buddy and you can find stories like that about every coach.
no but he's suppose to be more professional and not:

- tell media that your player is partying at roxy too much
- tell media that your player had a bad camp and the back injury is jsut an excuse
- tell media that your player needs to pass and use his teammates more but don't tell him that yourself

He's not suppose to be their buddy but when you don't communicate to your players and go straight the media first that's just gonna make your player lose respect for you.

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01-29-2013, 10:01 PM
  #860
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I think it's time for AV to move on just like other people think it was time for Luongo to move on. He's coached a team that's started slow and melted down to end pretty much every single season he's been here. Seriously. Are there any exceptions to that? Have they ever had a quick start to a season (there must be at least one exception) or a non-melty ending?

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01-29-2013, 10:11 PM
  #861
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Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
^ didn't know Demitra did that. I'm not surprised, i remember he said to the media how he didn't like how AV keeps switching the lines when he was there and that was when he was still on the team. AV seems to leave alot of bitterness in players that have left the club. The out spoken ones are Wille Mitchell, Naslund, and O'brien comes to mind. KEsler is next.

AV needs to learn to communitate with his players because right now it seems like they are often on different pages. Enough of this let the players run their own thing. When he makes comments to media and makes questionable roster moves, the players are gonna be more bitter towards him because of the lack of communication. more likely they take things the wrong way like Kesler did off season.
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...ults-critique/

The 'new mould' of coaches all seem like they're good communicators. Guys like Guy Boucher, Dallas Eakins, Jon Cooper. Established coaches like Laviolette and Deboer. I liked Noel and MacT when they were in the system because they sought to teach and communicate with their players.

If you look at the coaches who have had recent success, it's that they're also intense, passionate and demanding - always pushing their players to be the best they can be. People like Quenneville and Byslma. Even Darryl Sutter, as much as he's known for being a hard-ass, and he communicates well with his players too.

Remember what some people were saying about this team seeming to be too laid back, casual and not enough intensity at times over the course of the 2nd half of last season? Perhaps it's time for AV to take back the reigns and stop giving the players so much autonomy.

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01-29-2013, 10:37 PM
  #862
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This team needs a new coach and a swift kick in the ass as well, this team plays too passe with AV in charge and the attitude and effort is starting to show.

How many more years can we ride AV? I wanted him gone during the 08-09 season..

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01-29-2013, 10:56 PM
  #863
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I think it's time for AV to move on just like other people think it was time for Luongo to move on. He's coached a team that's started slow and melted down to end pretty much every single season he's been here. Seriously. Are there any exceptions to that? Have they ever had a quick start to a season (there must be at least one exception) or a non-melty ending?
I'll admit that it often feels this way, but the nature of a knockout system in the playoffs is that every team gets eliminated except one, so every fanbase thinks their team "melted down" or "beat themselves" or whatever. One team has to lose every series (fans also misunderstand what "choking" is in this respect, as it seems literally 90% of losing teams are called chokers now, which is structurally nonsensical), and some losses are prettier than others, but there have to be far more losses than wins, so almost everyone's season comes to a sputter in some way. And the fans always feel the team could have won but for one or two costly mistakes -- but this is true of almost every win or loss in every sport, and someone has to win what is ultimately a coin toss between two teams that are necessarily close in talent (as they are all now).

The 2006-07 Canucks didn't melt down at the end, although they got overmatched by a dominant Anaheim team in the second round. I wouldn't say the team "melted down" in the 2010 playoffs either, for instance -- they just lost. And while the 2011 finals took an ugly turn once it became clear the team could no longer overcome their health situation, it's tough to claim that a team that makes it within a game of the big prize actually "melted down" even if they had a rough go of it -- rather explicably, frankly -- in a few individual games.

I will agree that the Canucks have tended to peak around January or so, but I would argue this was always the case, even going back to the Pat Quinn days. (Part of what made the 1994 run so weird is that the team got better all of a sudden after a consistently mediocre season, although that one actually did start strong). When a trend lasts that long I think there are some structural factors at play, and some of it may be the reality of playing in a high-travel market, who knows.

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01-29-2013, 11:12 PM
  #864
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Come on... Calgary's been playing that card for the past several years as well. At some point, you have to realize the team just isn't capable of producing as it once did.
WTF, all the coaches they've had recently are very experienced.

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01-29-2013, 11:24 PM
  #865
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WTF, all the coaches they've had recently are very experienced.
Does Playfair count? No idea what's being argued.

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01-30-2013, 12:16 AM
  #866
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no but he's suppose to be more professional and not:

- tell media that your player is partying at roxy too much
- tell media that your player had a bad camp and the back injury is jsut an excuse
- tell media that your player needs to pass and use his teammates more but don't tell him that yourself

He's not suppose to be their buddy but when you don't communicate to your players and go straight the media first that's just gonna make your player lose respect for you.
Dont know if Ive asked before but Id like someone to timeline those comments with Hodgsons comments that the "NHL is where he needs to be".

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01-30-2013, 12:45 AM
  #867
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Dont know if Ive asked before but Id like someone to timeline those comments with Hodgsons comments that the "NHL is where he needs to be".
During the 2009 camp:

Quote:
Earlier in the week Hodgson said that a return to junior would be a step backward.

"I don't think I'd develop much at all [in junior]. This is where I need to be for more development. This is where I think I fit," Hodgson said.
After he was cut:

Quote:
The Canucks sent him back to Brampton. He was crushed.

A second opinion from The Cleveland Clinic confirmed the herniated disk. But doctors there recommended he stay off skates indefinitely.

Then it got worse. Canucks coach Alain Vigneault inferred Hodgson was using the injury as an excuse for a poor camp, trying to ''roll the (blame) in a different direction.''

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01-30-2013, 12:53 AM
  #868
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Those comments about staying in the NHL gave me a bad feeling at the time. They look even worse when you look back now. I just don't understand the feeling of entitlement that this kid seems to have.

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01-30-2013, 12:56 AM
  #869
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Those comments about staying in the NHL gave me a bad feeling at the time. They look even worse when you look back now. I just don't understand the feeling of entitlement that this kid seems to have.
They're pretty ballsy.

Im curious to know what other conversations were had. Would love to have been a fly on the wall.

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01-30-2013, 12:56 AM
  #870
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Thanks mate. I dont know why but ive struggled to find these.

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01-30-2013, 01:01 AM
  #871
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Those comments about staying in the NHL gave me a bad feeling at the time. They look even worse when you look back now. I just don't understand the feeling of entitlement that this kid seems to have.
My sense was that he was impatient. I think he looks at Eberle, his contemporary and WJC teammate, and thought that his progress should track in a similar way. I'm not basing this on anything. Just this gut feeling I get when I think about the whole situation.

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01-30-2013, 01:09 AM
  #872
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My sense was that he was impatient. I think he looks at Eberle, his contemporary and WJC teammate, and thought that his progress should track in a similar way. I'm not basing this on anything. Just this gut feeling I get when I think about the whole situation.
At the time Eberle was still in the WHL though. He didn't make the NHL until 2010.

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01-30-2013, 01:11 AM
  #873
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At the time Eberle was still in the WHL though. He didn't make the NHL until 2010.
Maybe he means Hodgsons playmates from Ontario.

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01-30-2013, 01:14 AM
  #874
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Maybe he means Hodgsons playmates from Ontario.
Yeah, that makes more sense. I can see how he could feel like he should be at the same level as Duchene given their OHL play but at the same time, a lot of prospects must feel like that and none of them ever vocalize it. Haven't really heard anyone else in the past 5 years make comments like that.

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01-30-2013, 01:24 AM
  #875
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Yeah, that makes more sense. I can see how he could feel like he should be at the same level as Duchene given their OHL play but at the same time, a lot of prospects must feel like that and none of them ever vocalize it. Haven't really heard anyone else in the past 5 years make comments like that.
Depends. My understanding is there was a tight knit community of hockey families. Could have been pressure to keep up with the Jones.

Good family friends who son I am good friends with played high level minor hockey up until junior on select teams with guys like Barret Jackman, Dave Morriset, Kris Beech and Steve McCarthy. So I got to see some of the more intense side of it. Theres quite a bit of competition between parents etc.

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