HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Isles - YIKES

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-29-2013, 11:42 PM
  #326
SidGenoMario
Registered User
 
SidGenoMario's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,277
vCash: 500
Who do you replace Bylsma with?

SidGenoMario is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:46 PM
  #327
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
Who do you replace Bylsma with?
Who should you replace Bylsma with or who will Shero replace Bylsma with?

The latter answer most likely is John Hynes. The former answer is someone outside the organization who is known as an excellent tactician, bench boss, and someone who can get the most from Sid and Geno.

My vote is Dave King. Ask Rick Tocchet to be an assistant. Ask Fitzie again for a big favor.

Optional: Let EJ coach the PP. He'll forget more today about coaching a PP than Bylsma will ever know.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:46 PM
  #328
shureshot66
Global Moderator
 
shureshot66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,299
vCash: 500
Well that was a pure dumpster fire.

Whatever the hell is happening to these guys during that first intermission, the coaches need to figure it out. Quickly.

shureshot66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:47 PM
  #329
MonsterSurge
Registered User
 
MonsterSurge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,387
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
Who do you replace Bylsma with?
As someone said before...


MonsterSurge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 11:47 PM
  #330
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by shureshot66 View Post
Well that was a pure dumpster fire.

Whatever the hell is happening to these guys during that first intermission, the coaches need to figure it out. Quickly.
It seems pretty clear that the coaches are beyond figuring it out and/or lack the ability/influence with the players at this point to do anything about it.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:05 AM
  #331
UnderratedBrooks44
Registered User
 
UnderratedBrooks44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Miranda's house
Posts: 12,822
vCash: 500
I think the whole 'patience is a virtue' thing with the roster is coming to a head this season.

We've got nobody, NOBODY in the forward department save for Bennett who probably isn't making an impact this year if he were to play. He just went pro months ago. That's it. As Jags touched on earlier, we've got superstars but other teams have great players AND depth. This is a major concern. Check out our goal scoring so far this year. It's downright troubling.

With all these D prospects we have, if we were to trade any today what would we get exactly? The only guys I can see getting anything notable for would be Despres (because he's just about ripe) and Morrow, but even Morrow has had some troubles. If his billing is to be believed he wouldn't be healthy scratched a bunch of times in the AHL. Those guys though, I think you can get decent players for.

Who else? Harrington, Pouliot, Maata, and Borts aren't getting a big return at the moment unless some team needs two of them to completely restock AND they make good trading partners.

Oh I almost forgot: The cap is going down next year so you better be careful who you add. That's a big freakin problem because the forwards may need somewhat of an overhaul. We are literally one top six forward short of a legitimate NHL roster. Think about that.

I don't like it, and I think it might be time to call this "draft all Dmen" philosophy somewhat of a failure. Are we trying to win Cups now or in three years when these guys are worth trading?

I think Bylsma is insanely overrated but all the suits need to take a look at what's going on here and make adjustments. I'm tired of this patience garbage when we let UFAs go by that could help us and forego depth because we don't like the look on their faces. Just win baby. Honestly what did we ever have to lose with some of the guys that were out there? Scott freaking Gomez would help our top 6 right now and that's not a joke. He can skate and pass the puck. That's two more things I can say for him than anyone after our 5 best forwards.

UnderratedBrooks44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:19 AM
  #332
bambamcam4ever
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Oh I almost forgot: The cap is going down next year so you better be careful who you add. That's a big freakin problem because the forwards may need somewhat of an overhaul. We are literally one top six forward short of a legitimate NHL roster. Think about that.
The cap will be exactly the same next year.

bambamcam4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:24 AM
  #333
Big McLargehuge
Global Moderator
Buff Drinklots
 
Big McLargehuge's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Country: Germany
Posts: 54,458
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
the cap will be exactly the same next year.
$64.3 =/= $70.2

__________________
“The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile, but that it is indifferent. If we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death, our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.” - Stanley Kubrick
http://sprites.pokecheck.org/i/054.gif
Big McLargehuge is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:25 AM
  #334
Malkinstheman
Registered User
 
Malkinstheman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 976
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
The cap will be exactly the same next year.
The cap is 70 this year and will decrease to 64.3 next year

Malkinstheman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:28 AM
  #335
Sidney the Kidney
Beastmode Penguins
 
Sidney the Kidney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Jesus, and what about our asset management? At least Holmgren attempted to fill in holes.
This is where my frustration with Shero comes in. Someone said it earlier in the thread, but it's like this organization (Shero included) thinks we're still that 2009 Cup winner, and is just waiting for them to "get to our game".

How many off-seasons has it been obvious we're short on actual talent on the wings, and what has been his answer recently? Comrie, Steve Sullivan and ... Tanner Glass. I know people will be quick to point out James Neal, but for crying out loud, that's one winger in 4 seasons added that actually improves our talent level. We're still about 3 wingers away from being able to compete with the elite teams in the league.

Bottom line is, the Pens had obvious holes coming into this season. Shero did nothing to fix them. Nothing. People can say he tried to land Parise, but the end result is he didn't land him, and thus the roster we had coming into this season still had massive talent holes up front.

To be honest, I'm more frustrated with the roster Shero has assembled than with Bylsma's coaching.

Sidney the Kidney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:28 AM
  #336
canadianguy77
Registered User
 
canadianguy77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,006
vCash: 500
A lot of this is Shero's fault. He insist's on surrounding the 2 best centers in the game with guy's nearing the end of their careers.(aside from Neal) He doesn't make trades to make the team younger.
It's obvious that Dupuis and Kunitz have both lost a step. Especially Kunitz. I mean, why not get rid of a few first round picks, and get some younger talent. Guys with speed that can get open, so Geno and Sid can feed them? And what's with the reluctance to trading away some first rounders in package deals with our 30-something vets? It's not like they finish close to the bottom every year and those picks are valueable.
I dunno...but Shero has proven just as inept as Bylsma imo. Are you listening Mario and Ron?

canadianguy77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:29 AM
  #337
Dangles78
Registered User
 
Dangles78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 727
vCash: 500
The only part that irritates me is the perception of this last draft and the criticism of not drafting FF or Grigs. Neither are NHL factors now like some thought they'd be or expect. They hold as much value as DePo or Maatta. People disregard the growth of our NCAA prospects, but continue to bring up Moulson?

We may not have a "dynamic" forward prospect because...uh...we haven't been drafting in a position to acquire one...don't bring up FF and Grigs. Like I've said SEVERAL times; 2012 draft was weak and both of those players have several question marks. What we do have is the best 2 players in the world, a deep prospect pool, elite goalieS, and a solid top-4.

But wait, all that? Ya...all that. What's lacking? Coaching. Plain and simple. The system and overall message isn't working. Sometimes you just need to try something new.

Dangles78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:30 AM
  #338
Tender Rip
Learning from Scuds?
 
Tender Rip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 12,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I love #29, but if we can't re-sign him in order to get a better roster, I'm not crying. I think this team could win with like a Niemi or someone of a weaker talent level. It would just have to be amazing moves to get someone from Shero. But this talk is neither here nor there.
It is though - even if it isn't coaching related. We have very few tradeable assets who could conceivably net us a serious return. If Toronto (for instance) are really interested in Luongo, they will be interested in Fleury also.
We do have a more than capable number 2. We'd be a better team here and now if we dealt Fleuiry and got Kulemin+Reimer as a return for instance. And there will be other teams who are interested. Still.

Tender Rip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:32 AM
  #339
canadianguy77
Registered User
 
canadianguy77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,006
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
The only part that irritates me is the perception of this last draft and the criticism of not drafting FF or Grigs. Neither are NHL factors now like some thought they'd be or expect. They hold as much value as DePo or Maatta. People disregard the growth of our NCAA prospects, but continue to bring up Moulson?

We may not have a "dynamic" forward prospect because...uh...we haven't been drafting in a position to acquire one...don't bring up FF and Grigs. Like I've said SEVERAL times; 2012 draft was weak and both of those players have several question marks. What we do have is the best 2 players in the world, a deep prospect pool, elite goalieS, and a solid top-4.

But wait, all that? Ya...all that. What's lacking? Coaching. Plain and simple. The system and overall message isn't working. Sometimes you just need to try something new.
And some speed on the wings...among other things.

canadianguy77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:34 AM
  #340
Funk311
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 913
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
I think the whole 'patience is a virtue' thing with the roster is coming to a head this season.

We've got nobody, NOBODY in the forward department save for Bennett who probably isn't making an impact this year if he were to play. He just went pro months ago. That's it. As J.......
(for space i axed some of your post)

I really like this POV and comments. The board tends to have a lot of disagreement on personnel and development. But I think regardless of what camp you have been in, you are not happy with where we are at. Both from a talent/attitude perspective and a coaching/extracting results perspective. We have been lucky to see some great hockey in the past 5 years, and our trend went from up and up to flat and failing.

Excellent points about the cap. It sure as hell is not going to get easier. Which is why I have never argued if the guys we drafted are good or bad. I don't follow prospects enough. But i think often about the team operations, and maximizing our ability to win. I just can't say we have done a very good job improving our active (dressed) roster through the draft. Which is where many of these issues stem from.

I know Jiggy is out there thinking we also don't develop talent at forward well either. I agree with that two.

Combine with Brooks' point about passing up cheap reclamation projects and it fills out the entirety of the problem. BTW i am not endorsing a sign gomez idea, but its more the concept of realizing there are holes which need filling and it will take some risk/creativity.

DB also deserves blame for this because no one ever seems to get reasonable chances to expand their role. (No not a tangradi reference) but the lines juggle constantly. No one gets 5-10 games to round into form. One bad shift and Glass or Adams is stepping in for you. I personally think NJD do a great job at creating chemistry and getting more of the units than the sum of their parts.

Funk311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:37 AM
  #341
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
**** You, Duthie
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 42,865
vCash: 500
Just for a little perspective regarding our recent playoff woes, I think we ought to look at the period of '99 to '01 of the most successful team of the Dead Puck Era.

They benefited immensely from regularly drafting Europeans before it became an accepted practice, and there was no cap to prevent the organization from re-signing them. They had superstar talent, high quality depth, and the acknowledged best coach of all-time.

That team was eliminated in the 2nd round twice and the 1st round once in the 3 years following their '98 Cup win.

So how is it so totally unacceptable that our coach, in a capped world, has achieved similar results? Scotty Freaking Bowman barely did any better with a virtual all-star team in an uncapped league.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:39 AM
  #342
Dangles78
Registered User
 
Dangles78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
It is though - even if it isn't coaching related. We have very few tradeable assets who could conceivably net us a serious return. If Toronto (for instance) are really interested in Luongo, they will be interested in Fleury also.
We do have a more than capable number 2. We'd be a better team here and now if we dealt Fleuiry and got Kulemin+Reimer as a return for instance. And there will be other teams who are interested. Still.
No we wouldn't.

We have plenty of opportunity to fill the 2 LW hole. Trading a franchise goalie for a solid 2nd liner (tweener to some) and a backup goalie only sets the Pens back.

Though I think coaching is an issue...I don't think the Pens "future" is a concern. Seriously...for drafting late in most years we have Morrow, Pouliot, Hanowski, Agostino, Maatta, Bluegers, Bennett Harrington, etc. Though most aren't "blue chip", they can help us in the future. Shero needs to create a team that can compete year in and year out and the fill in the holes with these draft picks.

We NEED faith in the players we select. We don't know what we have until we see them play at the NHL level. Any one of them could come here (regardless of their past) and rip the **** outta this league.

Dangles78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:40 AM
  #343
Funk311
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 913
vCash: 500
I apologize for my long posts and this double.

But for isles fans who may be reading....I want to give the isles a plus. They played a great team game. Excellent D zone work and commitment to supporting each other to win battles. It also looks like some of their younger players are taking a turn towards a winning season.

So while we continue to analyze our mess, i think it only fair to give some (some) credit to a team who plays a strong game. It is plus minus after all.

Funk311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:44 AM
  #344
Funk311
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 913
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Just for a little perspective regarding our recent playoff woes, I think we ought to look at the period of '99 to '01 of the most successful team of the Dead Puck Era.

They benefited immensely from regularly drafting Europeans before it became an accepted practice, and there was no cap to prevent the organization from re-signing them. They had superstar talent, high quality depth, and the acknowledged best coach of all-time.

That team was eliminated in the 2nd round twice and the 1st round once in the 3 years following their '98 Cup win.

So how is it so totally unacceptable that our coach, in a capped world, has achieved similar results? Scotty Freaking Bowman barely did any better with a virtual all-star team in an uncapped league.
I think that is fair to bring up. Some perspective never hurts. I am not so much expecting to win all the time, but i expect quality play. It's fine to lose like we did to the sens, or the wings in dance #1. We were playing well and sometimes you lose. The anger is not about 1 game, or not winning 4 consecutive cups. Its about repeating mistakes, failure to address needs, and a noticeable departure in general quality. Speaking for myself of course.

Funk311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:45 AM
  #345
billybudd
5 Mike Rupps
 
billybudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
there was a player-only meeting?
During the Ranger game after they played like trash in, I think, the second.

Edit: some people are saying it was after, not sure. Seth Rorabaugh said something about it on twitter, like, 5 days later.

billybudd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:45 AM
  #346
mpp9
Registered User
 
mpp9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 17,825
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Just for a little perspective regarding our recent playoff woes, I think we ought to look at the period of '99 to '01 of the most successful team of the Dead Puck Era.

They benefited immensely from regularly drafting Europeans before it became an accepted practice, and there was no cap to prevent the organization from re-signing them. They had superstar talent, high quality depth, and the acknowledged best coach of all-time.

That team was eliminated in the 2nd round twice and the 1st round once in the 3 years following their '98 Cup win.

So how is it so totally unacceptable that our coach, in a capped world, has achieved similar results? Scotty Freaking Bowman barely did any better with a virtual all-star team in an uncapped league.
You're missing the point. The players are just not responding to the coach. It's plain as day. Team chemistry? Despres and Jeffrey have sat for much of the season and they were our best players tonight.

mpp9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:45 AM
  #347
Tender Rip
Learning from Scuds?
 
Tender Rip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 12,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
We have plenty of opportunity to fill the 2 LW hole. Trading a franchise goalie for a solid 2nd liner (tweener to some) and a backup goalie only sets the Pens back.
He is a franchise goalie the same way Brooks Orpik is a franchise defenseman.

Tender Rip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:50 AM
  #348
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
**** You, Duthie
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 42,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funk311 View Post
I think that is fair to bring up. Some perspective never hurts. I am not so much expecting to win all the time, but i expect quality play. It's fine to lose like we did to the sens, or the wings in dance #1. We were playing well and sometimes you lose. The anger is not about 1 game, or not winning 4 consecutive cups. Its about repeating mistakes, failure to address needs, and a noticeable departure in general quality. Speaking for myself of course.
I don't think anybody was speaking this way last season before Sid came back. Everyone seemed pretty happy with the state of the team at that point.

My point is that even the team held to the highest modern standard of quality had a similar underwhelming 3 year playoff run to the Pens when it was in its prime, had no cap to deal with, and the best coach of all-time behind the bench.

We are playing bad hockey so far this season. I don't expect it to continue for long, and I believe we'll right the ship with Bylsma at the helm.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:50 AM
  #349
canadianguy77
Registered User
 
canadianguy77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,006
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
No we wouldn't.

We have plenty of opportunity to fill the 2 LW hole. Trading a franchise goalie for a solid 2nd liner (tweener to some) and a backup goalie only sets the Pens back.

Though I think coaching is an issue...I don't think the Pens "future" is a concern. Seriously...for drafting late in most years we have Morrow, Pouliot, Hanowski, Agostino, Maatta, Bluegers, Bennett Harrington, etc. Though most aren't "blue chip", they can help us in the future. Shero needs to create a team that can compete year in and year out and the fill in the holes with these draft picks.

We NEED faith in the players we select. We don't know what we have until we see them play at the NHL level. Any one of them could come here (regardless of their past) and rip the **** outta this league.
I think that we need some guys who are ready to play now. With Sid and Geno (if he re-signs) we have a window of about 6-8 years. The 18-20 year-olds that we've drafted, aren't really going to be able to help this team out. At least not for another 3-4 years. And they're almost all defensemen. Defencemen just take longer to turn into bona-fide Nhl players.

We need to start winning cups now. I think Shero should send one of our defensive prospects, with a Kunitz or Dupuis, and a first round pick, and pick up a 22-25 year old winger who above all, has some speed and decent hands. Anyone here who doesn't think Grabner could score 40 on Sid's flank?

canadianguy77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-30-2013, 12:56 AM
  #350
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
**** You, Duthie
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 42,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
You're missing the point. The players are just not responding to the coach. It's plain as day. Team chemistry? Despres and Jeffrey have sat for much of the season and they were our best players tonight.
I understand the point completely. My point is that we're 6 games into a season where so far Suter is a worse defenseman than Martin, the Isles are a better team than the Flyers, and Marleau is the best player in the league.

What is now shall not forever be. People seem to find a way to forget this every year - it is especially relevant in a season like this that had so little prep time.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:23 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.