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Alain Vigneault Discussion - Part 2

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Old
01-30-2013, 02:18 AM
  #876
Fat Tony
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Actually, I'm thinking more of when Hodgson was healthy again. He may have felt that he had a year's catching up to do.

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01-30-2013, 02:42 AM
  #877
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Is everyone still on the Fire AV Bandwagon?

Or has that worn off now?

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01-30-2013, 02:43 AM
  #878
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been waiting since 2006, never worn off.

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01-30-2013, 02:50 AM
  #879
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Is everyone still on the Fire AV Bandwagon?

Or has that worn off now?
I've been on the FIRE AV bandwagon since 2008-2009 season, somehow and someway he gets out coached.

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01-30-2013, 02:53 AM
  #880
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I've been on the FIRE AV bandwagon since 2008-2009 season, somehow and someway he gets out coached.
same

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01-30-2013, 02:59 AM
  #881
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I was the FIRST to be on teh Wagon!!

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Old
01-30-2013, 03:02 AM
  #882
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I was the FIRST to be on teh Wagon!!
I wanted AV fired before he was even hired.

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01-30-2013, 03:31 AM
  #883
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been waiting since 2006, never worn off.
This just proves that the hatred of Vigneault is irrational. People have been calling for his head since the day he was hired and all he has done is make players better and gotten this team to the top of the NHL and to a game within a cup.

There's a reason why Gillis kept him when he got here. He's a very good coach and if you don't think so you need to post some numbers as evidence vis a vis other coaches over the same length of time.

The problem with you guys and many other fans is that you engage in hero worship when it comes to the players. God forbid you hold them accountable. So instead you blame the coach.

If Bieksa sucks, that's on him.

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01-30-2013, 03:32 AM
  #884
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I've wanted AV fired for awhile too. Nice to see everyone still on the bandwagon.

Lets do some protesting or something!!

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01-30-2013, 03:39 AM
  #885
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This just proves that the hatred of Vigneault is irrational.
No, it doesn't.

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01-30-2013, 04:04 AM
  #886
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been waiting since 2006, never worn off.
What made you think that way even from the very beginning? Just curious.

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01-30-2013, 04:12 AM
  #887
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What made you think that way even from the very beginning? Just curious.
Just thought vancouver can afford to hire better coach than AV to replace Crawford.

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01-30-2013, 04:19 AM
  #888
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It doesn't matter who you are, every coach has a shelf life. Not many guys save Bowman, Trotz, and Ruff last a decade. And Trotz and Ruff were close, but saved by highly budget conscious teams unwilling to pay a guy to stay home.
AV would find another job in a heartbeat, but that doesn't mean he's still the best choice for the Canucks. He's not. It's not working anymore, and a win streak or losing streak won't change my mind.

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01-30-2013, 08:19 AM
  #889
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Originally Posted by TheDiver View Post
This just proves that the hatred of Vigneault is irrational. People have been calling for his head since the day he was hired and all he has done is make players better and gotten this team to the top of the NHL and to a game within a cup.

There's a reason why Gillis kept him when he got here. He's a very good coach and if you don't think so you need to post some numbers as evidence vis a vis other coaches over the same length of time.

The problem with you guys and many other fans is that you engage in hero worship when it comes to the players. God forbid you hold them accountable. So instead you blame the coach.

If Bieksa sucks, that's on him.
Then it's on Gillis for not signing someone better. Fire Gillis!

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01-30-2013, 09:22 AM
  #890
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I actually think AV is a really good coach (iffy on Bowness), but I think he's met his best before date in Vancouver.

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01-30-2013, 09:44 AM
  #891
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I'll admit that it often feels this way, but the nature of a knockout system in the playoffs is that every team gets eliminated except one, so every fanbase thinks their team "melted down" or "beat themselves" or whatever. One team has to lose every series (fans also misunderstand what "choking" is in this respect, as it seems literally 90% of losing teams are called chokers now, which is structurally nonsensical), and some losses are prettier than others, but there have to be far more losses than wins, so almost everyone's season comes to a sputter in some way. And the fans always feel the team could have won but for one or two costly mistakes -- but this is true of almost every win or loss in every sport, and someone has to win what is ultimately a coin toss between two teams that are necessarily close in talent (as they are all now).

The 2006-07 Canucks didn't melt down at the end, although they got overmatched by a dominant Anaheim team in the second round. I wouldn't say the team "melted down" in the 2010 playoffs either, for instance -- they just lost. And while the 2011 finals took an ugly turn once it became clear the team could no longer overcome their health situation, it's tough to claim that a team that makes it within a game of the big prize actually "melted down" even if they had a rough go of it -- rather explicably, frankly -- in a few individual games.

I will agree that the Canucks have tended to peak around January or so, but I would argue this was always the case, even going back to the Pat Quinn days. (Part of what made the 1994 run so weird is that the team got better all of a sudden after a consistently mediocre season, although that one actually did start strong). When a trend lasts that long I think there are some structural factors at play, and some of it may be the reality of playing in a high-travel market, who knows.
I think you make a number of salient points -- most of them, actually. You do contradict yourself slightly by saying that every fan feels its team "melted down" and then giving an example of a time the Canucks didn't. It would seem that even you agree there is a distinction.

As I've said before, I think AV is a very capable coach, who has met his best before date. There is a lot more that goes into playoff failure, including both on-ice and off-ice luck.

And you're right about 2006-2007. They were over-matched, but they also scored 1.8 GPG in the playoffs and had a PP% of 6%. Last year they also lost to a team that might have been better (despite their record), and they were close games, but that was also a President's Trophy winner losing to an 8 seed in 5 games.

If you go through every season -- all of which started slow -- the Canucks were either blown out of the water in the playoffs while routinely being exposed on special teams (either PP or PK), or were crushed in blowouts numerous times. I guess 2007-2008 was an exception: they fell apart and missed the playoffs.

The team just seems prone to wild swings in momentum. Maybe it's the same as every team, but I don't think so. The team (Luongo, Sedins, etc.) probably deserve some of the blame, as well, but how many teams have earned the label Luongo has undeservedly had foisted solely upon him by media, opposing fans, and even many Canucks fans. I think at some point you need a different coach. Others may disagree.

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01-30-2013, 09:53 AM
  #892
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Last playoffs did it for me.

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01-30-2013, 10:31 AM
  #893
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Is everyone still on the Fire AV Bandwagon?

Or has that worn off now?
I paid extra for a reserved seat, has a name placard on it and everything.

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01-30-2013, 10:58 AM
  #894
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I think you make a number of salient points -- most of them, actually. You do contradict yourself slightly by saying that every fan feels its team "melted down" and then giving an example of a time the Canucks didn't. It would seem that even you agree there is a distinction.

As I've said before, I think AV is a very capable coach, who has met his best before date. There is a lot more that goes into playoff failure, including both on-ice and off-ice luck.

And you're right about 2006-2007. They were over-matched, but they also scored 1.8 GPG in the playoffs and had a PP% of 6%. Last year they also lost to a team that might have been better (despite their record), and they were close games, but that was also a President's Trophy winner losing to an 8 seed in 5 games.

If you go through every season -- all of which started slow -- the Canucks were either blown out of the water in the playoffs while routinely being exposed on special teams (either PP or PK), or were crushed in blowouts numerous times. I guess 2007-2008 was an exception: they fell apart and missed the playoffs.

The team just seems prone to wild swings in momentum. Maybe it's the same as every team, but I don't think so. The team (Luongo, Sedins, etc.) probably deserve some of the blame, as well, but how many teams have earned the label Luongo has undeservedly had foisted solely upon him by media, opposing fans, and even many Canucks fans. I think at some point you need a different coach. Others may disagree.
Wonder how we feel around here about San Jose's coaching?

Ron Wilson had them in a conference final, they always had regular season success, but couldn't get over the hump.

Everyone and their dog blamed coaching.

Todd Mcllellan stepped in, and what changed? Nothing. Still a great regular season team with moderate playoff success, two trips to the conference finals in two straight years, but couldn't get over the hump.

Changing coaches rarely puts teams over the hump, the players have to go out there and win games.

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01-30-2013, 11:11 AM
  #895
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Changing coaches rarely puts teams over the hump, the players have to go out there and win games.
You mention San Jose while Conveniently omitting Pittsburgh, which I think is a better comparison.

I will give AV credit in that missing a large part of the teams success in Booth and Kesler the Canucks could be in reality 4-2, but that is where the coach needs to make a difference, and this year he is really not managing the team very well. He is over-using some, under-using others and not adapting himself as a coach to the challenges a short, condensed season.

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01-30-2013, 11:42 AM
  #896
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You mention San Jose while Conveniently omitting Pittsburgh, which I think is a better comparison.

I will give AV credit in that missing a large part of the teams success in Booth and Kesler the Canucks could be in reality 4-2, but that is where the coach needs to make a difference, and this year he is really not managing the team very well. He is over-using some, under-using others and not adapting himself as a coach to the challenges a short, condensed season.
Sorry.

Pittsburgh has Crosby and Malkin, as well as Staal up the middle....it's not convenient, I feel San Jose more closely resembles Vancouver.

Pittsburgh and Chicago both made coaching moves that put them over the top (although lots of rumbles about Bylsma are out there right now) but those were very young teams, not comparable to Vancouver.

Boston is probably a team that didn't make the move, and reaped the benefit...

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01-30-2013, 11:52 AM
  #897
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan View Post
You mention San Jose while Conveniently omitting Pittsburgh, which I think is a better comparison.

I will give AV credit in that missing a large part of the teams success in Booth and Kesler the Canucks could be in reality 4-2, but that is where the coach needs to make a difference, and this year he is really not managing the team very well. He is over-using some, under-using others and not adapting himself as a coach to the challenges a short, condensed season.
I think Bylsma is the abberation there not SJ. Now I don't know the numbers exactly but I can't think of another Coaching change on a perennial contender that put a team over "the hump".

Boudreau for Hunter/Oates= way worse off
Wilson for McLellan= made zero diference
Renney for Torts= same
Stevens for Laviolette= same diff

Edit: Forgot about Chicago but as mentioned in the post above those were stacked young teams. Philly and SJ are teams that are closer to the Canucks.

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01-30-2013, 11:52 AM
  #898
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Sorry.

Pittsburgh has Crosby and Malkin, as well as Staal up the middle....it's not convenient, I feel San Jose more closely resembles Vancouver.

Pittsburgh and Chicago both made coaching moves that put them over the top (although lots of rumbles about Bylsma are out there right now) but those were very young teams, not comparable to Vancouver.

Boston is probably a team that didn't make the move, and reaped the benefit...
IMO the Canucks roster is more talented than the Sharks roster. Seems silly to say it right now given the current state of things, but you know what I mean.

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01-30-2013, 12:02 PM
  #899
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IMO the Canucks roster is more talented than the Sharks roster. Seems silly to say it right now given the current state of things, but you know what I mean.
I disagree, the way I see it the Sharks are way more skilled then Van. We have significantly better goaltending but other then that they are stronger up the middle have better snipers and way more forward depth.

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01-30-2013, 12:18 PM
  #900
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Since many of you would like coach fired please tell me who should be replacement?Bowman is too old at near 80.Don Hay had his chances but failed some of you like Mctavish I don't.There are many unproven coaches in minors or junior who could be good

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