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Paul Kelly says QC & Toronto to get expansion teams; Daly disputes assertion

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01-29-2013, 09:46 PM
  #1
Undertakerqc
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Paul Kelly says QC & Toronto to get expansion teams; Daly disputes assertion

An article from Elliot Friedman: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...expansion.html

Says NHL told him province of Québec and Ontario is underserved. Nice to hear, and really encouraging.

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01-29-2013, 11:35 PM
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Funny most people on here think we have too many teams and yet saying we need to add two more teams to accomidate more canadian expansion because adding another team in a city where the leafs are a religion is going to be a success

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01-29-2013, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by joelef View Post
Funny most people on here think we have too many teams and yet saying we need to add two more teams to accomidate more canadian expansion because adding another team in a city where the leafs are a religion is going to be a success
Building the Toronto2 fanbase is going to be a long-term project, like the other teams added in established markets. Get a devoted group of casual fans through cheap tickets and promotions. Considering Leafs' ticket prices, this will be recieved warmly in the GTA. This will especially attract families with kids, who will make up the future fanbase once they grow up. The second step is going on a playoff run that securely converts a chunk of those casuals into hardcores.

There are four teams in which parallels can be drawn: Islanders, Senators, Devils, and Ducks. They were all placed in areas with pre-existing strong hockey allegiances. The Senators in hockey-mad Canada were able to build quickly by capitalizing on down periods for both the Leafs and Habs. The Devils and Ducks saw lean early years beget long, drawn-out, slow growth that is just starting to pay off. The fans who saw these teams win cups as kids are now old enough to buy tickets and the STH bases in both markets are growing appreciably each year. The Devils are really pushing the whole "Jersey's team" thing and are capitalizing on the disdain many New Yorkers have for the Garden State and the resulting chip many in NJ have on their shoulders. The Ducks, calling themselves "Anaheim" have become an Orange County team and the more friendly, down-to-earth cousins to the flashy, big-spending, Gretzky-grabbing Kings. The Islanders have had a harder time due to a confluence of a long period of irrelevance after winning 4 straight cups and a failure to differentiate themselves as anything other than another "New York" team as opposed to "Long Island's team". For this reason, I think Toronto2 should go by the "Ontario" moniker to leverage Toronto-bashing to their advantage, gaining fans who hate all things Toronto.

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01-29-2013, 11:59 PM
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TORONTO is a horrible sport town.

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01-30-2013, 12:01 AM
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TORONTO is a horrible sport town.
It's not a horrible hockey town, though.

Hamilton Steehawks 2014!

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01-30-2013, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
It's not a horrible hockey town, though.

Hamilton Steehawks 2014!
tell that to scarborough Youth hockey

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01-30-2013, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by joelef View Post
Funny most people on here think we have too many teams and yet saying we need to add two more teams to accomidate more canadian expansion because adding another team in a city where the leafs are a religion is going to be a success
I think a second team could work if you either put it north of the city or to the west. It would be stupid to try do what the clippers do in LA where both teams play the same arena

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01-30-2013, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MartysBetterThanYou View Post
Building the Toronto2 fanbase is going to be a long-term project, like the other teams added in established markets. Get a devoted group of casual fans through cheap tickets and promotions. Considering Leafs' ticket prices, this will be recieved warmly in the GTA. This will especially attract families with kids, who will make up the future fanbase once they grow up. The second step is going on a playoff run that securely converts a chunk of those casuals into hardcores.

There are four teams in which parallels can be drawn: Islanders, Senators, Devils, and Ducks. They were all placed in areas with pre-existing strong hockey allegiances. The Senators in hockey-mad Canada were able to build quickly by capitalizing on down periods for both the Leafs and Habs. The Devils and Ducks saw lean early years beget long, drawn-out, slow growth that is just starting to pay off. The fans who saw these teams win cups as kids are now old enough to buy tickets and the STH bases in both markets are growing appreciably each year. The Devils are really pushing the whole "Jersey's team" thing and are capitalizing on the disdain many New Yorkers have for the Garden State and the resulting chip many in NJ have on their shoulders. The Ducks, calling themselves "Anaheim" have become an Orange County team and the more friendly, down-to-earth cousins to the flashy, big-spending, Gretzky-grabbing Kings. The Islanders have had a harder time due to a confluence of a long period of irrelevance after winning 4 straight cups and a failure to differentiate themselves as anything other than another "New York" team as opposed to "Long Island's team". For this reason, I think Toronto2 should go by the "Ontario" moniker to leverage Toronto-bashing to their advantage, gaining fans who hate all things Toronto.
canucks, IMO, qualify as well. Took a while for the leafs generation to disappear/be outgrown/die off. Even 10 years ago, a leafs-canucks game had just as many leafs fans as you see in ottawa/buffalo.

my feeling on southern ontario 2 is that it'll take a good 15 years to really build the fanbase. The sens are at 20 now and it's still building, but i think SO2 should be able to price out more leafs fans/have a better season ticket base simply due to the massive population advantage.

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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
It's not a horrible hockey town, though.

Hamilton Steehawks 2014!
1. He said toronto, not hamilton or the rest of southern ontario.
2. Take a look at any GTA OHL teams or even the marlies. Compare to CHL teams in ottawa (x2), edmonton, or calgary. Why do fans support junior hockey in those much smaller cities better than toronto if it's such a great hockey town? It's a leafs town... plain and simple.

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01-30-2013, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MartysBetterThanYou View Post
Building the Toronto2 fanbase is going to be a long-term project, like the other teams added in established markets. Get a devoted group of casual fans through cheap tickets and promotions. Considering Leafs' ticket prices, this will be recieved warmly in the GTA. This will especially attract families with kids, who will make up the future fanbase once they grow up. The second step is going on a playoff run that securely converts a chunk of those casuals into hardcores.

There are four teams in which parallels can be drawn: Islanders, Senators, Devils, and Ducks. They were all placed in areas with pre-existing strong hockey allegiances. The Senators in hockey-mad Canada were able to build quickly by capitalizing on down periods for both the Leafs and Habs. The Devils and Ducks saw lean early years beget long, drawn-out, slow growth that is just starting to pay off. The fans who saw these teams win cups as kids are now old enough to buy tickets and the STH bases in both markets are growing appreciably each year. The Devils are really pushing the whole "Jersey's team" thing and are capitalizing on the disdain many New Yorkers have for the Garden State and the resulting chip many in NJ have on their shoulders. The Ducks, calling themselves "Anaheim" have become an Orange County team and the more friendly, down-to-earth cousins to the flashy, big-spending, Gretzky-grabbing Kings. The Islanders have had a harder time due to a confluence of a long period of irrelevance after winning 4 straight cups and a failure to differentiate themselves as anything other than another "New York" team as opposed to "Long Island's team". For this reason, I think Toronto2 should go by the "Ontario" moniker to leverage Toronto-bashing to their advantage, gaining fans who hate all things Toronto.
I don't know if these four teams are an example of "successes".

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01-30-2013, 12:31 AM
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I don't know if these four teams are an example of "successes".
They are successes in the sense that 3 out of the 4 (sorry Isles) are profitable. A GTA team would be at bare minimum as successful as these, most likely more successful given the fact that it is freaking Toronto.

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01-30-2013, 12:40 AM
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Fixed
You won't get an argument from me, but the market seems to simply be too saturated for minor-league teams with an NHL team, AHL Team, the Oshawa Generals, the Mississauga Steelheads, and the Hamilton, Niagara, Barrie, and Kitchener-Waterloo hockey franchises right next door.

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01-30-2013, 02:22 AM
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The franchise fees speculated for Toronto2 are ridiculous and make absolutely zero sense. There is no way a second tier team in Leaf territory could break even or be profitable with $500-700 million in expansion fees. I doubt a Toronto2 franchise would be worth half that amount.

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01-30-2013, 02:25 AM
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The franchise fees speculated for Toronto2 are ridiculous and make absolutely zero sense. There is no way a second tier team in Leaf territory could break even or be profitable with $500-700 million in expansion fees. I doubt a Toronto2 franchise would be worth half that amount.
half the city hates the Leafs and supports other NHL teams...

6.4 million people in a hockey first area = no brainer for 2 teams.

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01-30-2013, 02:44 AM
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1. He said toronto, not hamilton or the rest of southern ontario.
2. Take a look at any GTA OHL teams or even the marlies. Compare to CHL teams in ottawa (x2), edmonton, or calgary. Why do fans support junior hockey in those much smaller cities better than toronto if it's such a great hockey town? It's a leafs town... plain and simple.
1. Who's "he"; joelef? Because Kelly isn't quoted in the article as saying "Toronto".

2. The Marlies are 5th in AHL Attendance, explain to me how that supports your theory.

None of those cities have the market saturation that the GTHA does. You're comparing 5+ Team apples to Ottawa's 2+ team oranges.

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01-30-2013, 02:55 AM
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canucks, IMO, qualify as well. Took a while for the leafs generation to disappear/be outgrown/die off. Even 10 years ago, a leafs-canucks game had just as many leafs fans as you see in ottawa/buffalo.

my feeling on southern ontario 2 is that it'll take a good 15 years to really build the fanbase. The sens are at 20 now and it's still building, but i think SO2 should be able to price out more leafs fans/have a better season ticket base simply due to the massive population advantage.



1. He said toronto, not hamilton or the rest of southern ontario.
2. Take a look at any GTA OHL teams or even the marlies. Compare to CHL teams in ottawa (x2), edmonton, or calgary. Why do fans support junior hockey in those much smaller cities better than toronto if it's such a great hockey town? It's a leafs town... plain and simple.
I actually disagree here on how long you think it would take for a second team in the GTA to gain a large fanbase. This isn't just a Leafs town, it's a hockey town, arguably the largest hockey fanbase in the world in this area. There are plenty of people who dislike the Leafs and would immediately cheer for the second team coming here. If the Leafs were consistent winners, I think the 15 years you suggested would apply, but they aren't winners, as well all know(1967). People in this area travel down to Buffalo all the time to see the Sabres play...anyone. They just wanna see hockey. You mention how this area doesn't do well with junior hockey or other leagues. Well, lets keep in mind, we also have a MLB team,MLS and the NBA. There are plenty of options and chances are, if you like hockey, you probably like one of those other leagues. Professional top leagues do well in Toronto, not amateur one's. Those cities you mention have an NHL team and none of the other sports. Do you really think if those cities had the NBA,MLB,MLS etc that the other leagues would continue thriving?

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01-30-2013, 03:02 AM
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I actually disagree here on how long you think it would take for a second team in the GTA to gain a large fanbase. This isn't just a Leafs town, it's a hockey town, arguably the largest hockey fanbase in the world in this area. There are plenty of people who dislike the Leafs and would immediately cheer for the second team coming here. If the Leafs were consistent winners, I think the 15 years you suggested would apply, but they aren't winners, as well all know(1967). People in this area travel down to Buffalo all the time to see the Sabres play...anyone. They just wanna see hockey. You mention how this area doesn't do well with junior hockey or other leagues. Well, lets keep in mind, we also have a MLB team,MLS and the NBA. There are plenty of options and chances are, if you like hockey, you probably like one of those other leagues. Professional top leagues do well in Toronto, not amateur one's. Those cities you mention have an NHL team and none of the other sports. Do you really think if those cities had the NBA,MLB,MLS etc that the other leagues would continue thriving?
Really? Youth hockey in Toronto is declining at a rapid rate.

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01-30-2013, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
The franchise fees speculated for Toronto2 are ridiculous and make absolutely zero sense. There is no way a second tier team in Leaf territory could break even or be profitable with $500-700 million in expansion fees. I doubt a Toronto2 franchise would be worth half that amount.
disagree
Another Toronto team would easily be in the top 4 or 5 in revenues..

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01-30-2013, 04:34 AM
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Really? Youth hockey in Toronto is declining at a rapid rate.
What the hell does peewee hockey have to do with the NHL? Besides the GTHL is the largest league in the world..... Not that has anything to do with an NHL team

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01-30-2013, 04:47 AM
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Question for you Canadians. Why is Markham opposed to an arena, especially if it brings another NHL team to the area? Strikes me as odd for the hockey hotbed of the sport.

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01-30-2013, 04:52 AM
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Question for you Canadians. Why is Markham opposed to an arena, especially if it brings another NHL team to the area? Strikes me as odd for the hockey hotbed of the sport.
Because there is no guarantee of getting a team.. If the NHL said we want to put another team in Toronto, there would probably be a few cities competing to get an arena built, then it's a no brainier....

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01-30-2013, 05:05 AM
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Because there is no guarantee of getting a team..
You think QC is building an arena for ***** and giggles? They have a promise in pocket. Either the Coyotes, or an expansion team. That's how the NHL does business. Having 'concerned citizens' torpedo a nice arena isn't going to make the league jump for joy when discussing expanding Toronto. It just makes them leery, and likely puts Toronto 2 behind Seattle.

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01-30-2013, 05:23 AM
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Even if Leafs are a religion that possible Toronto team would play toi full crowds every single night. It's Toronto for Christ's sake.

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01-30-2013, 05:33 AM
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You think QC is building an arena for ***** and giggles? They have a promise in pocket. Either the Coyotes, or an expansion team. That's how the NHL does business. Having 'concerned citizens' torpedo a nice arena isn't going to make the league jump for joy when discussing expanding Toronto. It just makes them leery, and likely puts Toronto 2 behind Seattle.
Personally, I think both Quebec and the money guys in Markham have deals in place for teams... But as we all know, the NHL does all it's business behind closed doors and out of public scrutiny... This guy would not have resigned his position to spearhead an arena for the unknown. Looking at who will be involved in arena operations, it's comapnies owned by Jeremy Jacobs and Ed Snider... Think they may have some inside info? Lol... These are 2 of the guys that pull Bettmans puppet strings. As well, with the new CBA I'm quite certain these guys would love to have another partner ease their burden of increased revenue sharing...

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01-30-2013, 05:34 AM
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Question for you Canadians. Why is Markham opposed to an arena, especially if it brings another NHL team to the area? Strikes me as odd for the hockey hotbed of the sport.
They're not opposed to the arena. They're opposed to the funding arrangement.
Even though I would love to see a second team (or a third) I agree NO taxpayer money should be used to build an arena.

Now that they've voted to continue the process I hope protections are in place to protect taxpayer investments.

My personal opinion....a team in Markham would be a gold mine.

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01-30-2013, 06:08 AM
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You think QC is building an arena for ***** and giggles? They have a promise in pocket. Either the Coyotes, or an expansion team. That's how the NHL does business. Having 'concerned citizens' torpedo a nice arena isn't going to make the league jump for joy when discussing expanding Toronto. It just makes them leery, and likely puts Toronto 2 behind Seattle.
Well first of all, the current Colisée was built in 1949. The lady is old and tired, despite the facelift she got in 1980. We're passing up on shows because the Colisée can't accomodate them for technical reasons.

So we needed a new arena. So why not build something that could be used for the NHL? It's pretty much the only large venue between Montreal and Halifax.

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