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Kevin Shattenkirk vs Erik Johnson

View Poll Results: Who's the better player?
Kevin Shattenkirk 94 52.51%
Erik Johnson 85 47.49%
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Old
01-29-2013, 11:42 PM
  #101
Avs44
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Originally Posted by BlueDream View Post
Maybe because we're the only fanbase that has seen him play as much as Colorado fans...

Not to change this into an EJ bashing thread, but you guys do overrate him. I have really yet to see a legitimate argument of how he's a #1 d-man. Really all you guys ever say is "You need to start watching Avs games because he's turned into a dominant defender". Sorry but that doesn't cut it. Stats, and more importantly, eyes, show that he really isn't anything great. Johnson's slight edge defensively just is not enough to cover the large gap on offense between the two. Johnson isn't even more physical than Shattenkirk these days even though all we hear about is how EJ is such a monster with his size. He doesn't even use it. Johnson is a better shot-blocker and therefore sees more PK time, but really, that's it; he's nothing special. Shattenkirk continues to improve defensively and now plays the same amount of minutes as EJ (22 per game). I do agree Johnson is a better defender and would do better against 1st-liners than Shatty would, but the difference between the two continues to decrease IMO while Shattenkirk continues to be far superior offensively and widen that gap. And from what I've seen between the two, Shattenkirk is more consistent, while both offer leadership. I would rather have Shattenkirk than Johnson. EJ at this point is a #2 still.
I'm not denying he is a #2 on a lot of teams. But he is the Avs #1 defensman. If you would rather have Shattenkirk, fine. For what the Blues need, I think they probably would rather have Shattenkirk. He is an excellent defensman. For what the Avs need, we would rather have Johnson. Without him, we easily have the worst D in the league. He is really our only top 4 defender. Playing with scrubs like Hunwick and O'Brien is certainly not helping him statewise. Nor is having an idiotic coach like Sacco, who gives Matt ****ing Hunwick more PP time. The Avs are happy with the trade, and so are the Blues. Why certain people have to bash EJ so much is beyond me

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01-29-2013, 11:56 PM
  #102
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EJ beats Shatty in pretty much every physical tool but IMO, hockey sense is the most important skill in hockey and Shatty is much better than EJ there. They're very hard to compare because they play very different games but I'd give a very slight edge to Shatty.

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01-29-2013, 11:58 PM
  #103
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I don't think Shattenkirk could be a #1. But man, he's one of hell of a 2nd pairing. Not many teams can roll out Petro/Shatty/Polak from the right side.

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01-30-2013, 12:16 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
I'm not denying he is a #2 on a lot of teams. But he is the Avs #1 defensman. If you would rather have Shattenkirk, fine. For what the Blues need, I think they probably would rather have Shattenkirk. He is an excellent defensman. For what the Avs need, we would rather have Johnson. Without him, we easily have the worst D in the league. He is really our only top 4 defender. Playing with scrubs like Hunwick and O'Brien is certainly not helping him statewise. Nor is having an idiotic coach like Sacco, who gives Matt ****ing Hunwick more PP time. The Avs are happy with the trade, and so are the Blues. Why certain people have to bash EJ so much is beyond me
What's important to emphasize here is that he's Colorado's moral #1 defenseman. He's their best penalty killer and he's their dangerous situation tied/one-goal game player. In actual responsibility, he doesn't face the toughest competition or play the most even-strength minutes - since the beginning of last year, guys like O'Brien, Hejda, O'Byrne, and now Zanon, have had harder defensive assignments.

However, the overall defensive responsibility on the Avalanche is very much a shared load, which makes that moral leader defenseman even more important, even if that guy does not get the same amount of responsibility you'd expect from a top-pairing defenseman.

And while I do think Shattenkirk's overall impact is superior, this is where I can really agree with Colorado fans that Shatty wouldn't be able to perform that role for them. He wouldn't be the guy you put out there to kill off a penalty late in a game or to keep a line of 220lb forwards from walking all over you. That steadiness can be vital to a team that's otherwise not so hot.

One of the often-repeated criticisms of Shattenkirk from Avs fans when the trade went down was that he got shoved off the puck in his own zone fairly often. That situation basically never happens with the Blues. He's obviously improved defensively, but I mean it's just rare as hell that a Blues' defender has the puck in his own zone while under pressure for long enough that he can get physically abused. They support each other and make quick passes to defuse the pressure and leave the zone unscathed. On a team that doesn't have that kind of support and structure, Erik Johnson's tools are going to shine in a way that they might not elsewhere.

If I were building a team from scratch and I had to choose one guy, it'd be Shattenkirk, but this really is a situation in which EJ performs a role for the Avalanche that was harder to come by and, due to their particular make-up, was at least as important. There is no such thing as value in a vacuum.


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01-30-2013, 06:50 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by BlueDream View Post
Maybe because we're the only fanbase that has seen him play as much as Colorado fans...

Not to change this into an EJ bashing thread, but you guys do overrate him. I have really yet to see a legitimate argument of how he's a #1 d-man. Really all you guys ever say is "You need to start watching Avs games because he's turned into a dominant defender". Sorry but that doesn't cut it. Stats, and more importantly, eyes, show that he really isn't anything great. Johnson's slight edge defensively just is not enough to cover the large gap on offense between the two. Johnson isn't even more physical than Shattenkirk these days even though all we hear about is how EJ is such a monster with his size. He doesn't even use it. Johnson is a better shot-blocker and therefore sees more PK time, but really, that's it; he's nothing special. Shattenkirk continues to improve defensively and plays the same amount of minutes as EJ (22 per game). I do agree Johnson is a bit better defender, but overall, he isn't the better player...He's just not, no matter how much you guys try to say it's just because people don't watch the Avs. The difference on defense between the two continues to decrease while Shattenkirk continues to be far superior offensively and widen that gap. And from what I've seen between the two, Shattenkirk is more consistent, while both offer leadership. I would rather have Shattenkirk than Johnson. EJ at this point is a #2 still.
What is a #2 defender if not a #1 around half the league?

Sure, he's a #2 compared to Pietrangelo, but there's around 8-12 teams in the league EJ would be #1 on. If that's not a #1 defender so be it, but he's still in the upper echelon of the entire league's defense. HF ranking him around ~20 iirc.

He's not slightly better than Shattenkirk defensively, he's another level above Shattenkirk. The type of defender that isn't just good positionally and with his stick, but has the physical tools to back up his play and win the battles. Shattenkirk cannot play defense like EJ can, that's why we traded him to acquire EJ, EJ is a clear upgrade defensively.

Kirk is akin to a good #3 defender, leads the charge offensively but doesn't quite have that defensive ability to control the play defensively. EJ is akin to a good #2, controls the defensive area and can lead the rush offensively, just doesn't have the finish of Shattenkirk.

If the Avs had a competent team offensively, EJ would have far different offensive numbers. Instead we're one of the worst teams at the moment.

Also, people need to throw out the competition stats, Sacco is an incompetent coach that used EJ less than Wilson despite the most uneducated of hockey fan being able to clearly see which of those two are better. We have bigger issues than whether Shattenkirk or EJ are better in Colorado.

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01-30-2013, 11:29 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
He's not slightly better than Shattenkirk defensively, he's another level above Shattenkirk. The type of defender that isn't just good positionally and with his stick, but has the physical tools to back up his play and win the battles. Shattenkirk cannot play defense like EJ can, that's why we traded him to acquire EJ, EJ is a clear upgrade defensively.
Disagree completely. Breaking up the play and then skating the puck out of the zone or making a good outlet pass is just as important in defence (Shatty is better at both), as tying people up along the boards. I also have a hard time agreeing that EJ is better with his stick defensively than Shatty - his reach would be better, but Shatty has a much higher hockey IQ.

I would also not agree that EJ is much more physical - EJ had about 60 more hits last season (130 to 70), but I would not say that makes EJ a physical defender (he was outside the top 30 defensemen for hits last year). Shatty also blocked more shots (9). He is being really underrated in his own zone while EJ is being very overrated.



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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Kirk is akin to a good #3 defender, leads the charge offensively but doesn't quite have that defensive ability to control the play defensively. EJ is akin to a good #2, controls the defensive area and can lead the rush offensively, just doesn't have the finish of Shattenkirk.
Given what I typed above, I would argue that Shatty is closer to being a #1 Dman than EJ.


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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
If the Avs had a competent team offensively, EJ would have far different offensive numbers. Instead we're one of the worst teams at the moment.
The Blues 'offensive competence' starts with the defence making a good outlet pass or carrying the puck up the ice. If EJ was better this in regard, it would help the Avs offense and lead to more goals. Kind of a catch-22.

Look at last season, the Blues were 21st in scoring and 1st in goals against. Our defence was lead by Pietro (5th in Dman scoring) and Shatty (15th in Dman scoring). I think this stat is really telling of these two dman's quality when they can put up so many points on a offensively challenged team while playing outstanding defence.

If we had EJ instead of Shatty playing on our second pairing, I really do not think he would have put up more than 30 points and our defence would not have been improved. More realistically is that both categories would have been worse. Obviously no way to prove this...


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01-30-2013, 11:36 AM
  #107
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Not having watched too much of EJ a tthe end of his STL tenure I can't say whether he has taken a major step up or not, but EJ has been absolutely fantastic for us defensively. He's constantly in the right place to clean up for his partners, he's unbelievably good at taking the puck away down low and along the boards, he's been fantastic at breaking up 2 on 1s breaking up the other team's transition game, and he's just a monster who'll run over anybody when he skates the puck out of the zone. He's given up a couple goals in his time here that were sloppy and mistakes on his part, but every player does that, even the greats, and EJ's hockey IQ has been a strength in his time here.

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01-30-2013, 11:41 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
What is a #2 defender if not a #1 around half the league?

Sure, he's a #2 compared to Pietrangelo, but there's around 8-12 teams in the league EJ would be #1 on. If that's not a #1 defender so be it, but he's still in the upper echelon of the entire league's defense. HF ranking him around ~20 iirc.

He's not slightly better than Shattenkirk defensively, he's another level above Shattenkirk. The type of defender that isn't just good positionally and with his stick, but has the physical tools to back up his play and win the battles. Shattenkirk cannot play defense like EJ can, that's why we traded him to acquire EJ, EJ is a clear upgrade defensively.

Kirk is akin to a good #3 defender, leads the charge offensively but doesn't quite have that defensive ability to control the play defensively. EJ is akin to a good #2, controls the defensive area and can lead the rush offensively, just doesn't have the finish of Shattenkirk.

If the Avs had a competent team offensively, EJ would have far different offensive numbers. Instead we're one of the worst teams at the moment.

Also, people need to throw out the competition stats, Sacco is an incompetent coach that used EJ less than Wilson despite the most uneducated of hockey fan being able to clearly see which of those two are better. We have bigger issues than whether Shattenkirk or EJ are better in Colorado.
You haven't watched Shattenkirk much. He's Dan Boyle-esque...do you consider him a #3? A part of defense that you're not taking into consideration is the ability to get to loose pucks, as well as take chances and have the speed to recover. Shattenkirk is glowingly better at those than EJ...and has also put on 15lbs of muscle since leaving Col...he's not exactly the most fun person to play against. In fact, he was oft matched up against the other teams top lines last year due to Carlo being paired with Petro.

Yes EJ is a better defender. But the gap between Shatty and EJs defense isn't as large as you're making it seem.

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01-30-2013, 11:47 AM
  #109
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Disagree completely. Breaking up the play and then skating the puck out of the zone or making a good outlet pass is just as important in defence (Shatty is better at both), as tying people up along the boards. I also have a hard time agreeing that EJ is better with his stick defensively than Shatty - his reach would be better, but Shatty has a much higher hockey IQ.

I would also not agree that EJ is much more physical - EJ had about 60 more hits last season (130 to 70), but I would not say that makes EJ a physical defender (he was outside the top 30 defensemen for hits last year). Shatty also blocked more shots (9). He is being really underrated in his own zone while EJ is being very overrated.
That's... what EJ does. He separates the man from the puck with his body, takes it and skates it out. Sometimes deciding to skate it all the way through the neutral zone himself and start the play offensively.

What I don't understand is why EJ having 60 more hits than Kirk doesn't make him more physical, but Kirk blocking 9 more shots is a relevant discussion topic?

Shattenkirk cannot and does not control the play defensively like EJ will. It's just a fact, not even objectively capable of being discussed with stats. Shattenkirk can stop a play by being in the right position or using his stick effectively, but so can EJ and then some. EJ can also make the big hit, aka play more physically (which he does!).

Quote:
Given what I typed above, I would argue that Shatty is closer to being a #1 Dman than EJ.
So argue for it?

Quote:
The Blues 'offensive competence' starts with the defence making a good outlet pass or carrying the puck up the ice. If EJ was better this in regard, it would help the Avs offense and lead to more goals. Kind of a catch-22.

Look at last season, the Blues were 21st in scoring and 1st in goals against. Our defence was lead by Pietro (5th in Dman scoring) and Shatty (15th in Dman scoring). I think this stat is really telling of these two dman's quality when they can put up so many points on a offensively challenged team while playing outstanding defence.

If we had EJ instead of Shatty playing on our second pairing, I really do not think he would have put up more than 30 points and our defence would not have been improved. More realistically is that both categories would have been worse. Obviously no way to prove this...
Why are you comparing the Blues offense to the Avs offense and trying to say that either team would be any better switching players? That isn't even remotely related to the topic on hand.

The Avs as a whole are offensively anemic right now. We can't even cycle properly. What do you expect EJ to get points from?

His assist this season came on the result of going down low, winning a battle himself and passing it to a wide open PAP in the slot. If your defenders have to go down low behind the net in order to get points, you've got bigger problems than needing a more offensively minded guy.

All their points tell you is that your team's offense runs through the defense. It doesn't tell you Shattenkirk is better than EJ nor does it tell you that EJ would be better on the Blues than Shattenkirk. Quit trying to substitute completely separate statistical outcomes with eachother and roleplaying the results.

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Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
You haven't watched Shattenkirk much. He's Dan Boyle-esque...do you consider him a #3? A part of defense that you're not taking into consideration is the ability to get to loose pucks, as well as take chances and have the speed to recover. Shattenkirk is glowingly better at those than EJ...and has also put on 15lbs of muscle since leaving Col...he's not exactly the most fun person to play against. In fact, he was oft matched up against the other teams top lines last year due to Carlo being paired with Petro.

Yes EJ is a better defender. But the gap between Shatty and EJs defense isn't as large as you're making it seem.
Dan Boyle-esque and yet not as good as Dan Boyle. We (you and I, not other people) are caught up in semantics here. I consider a top pairing defender to require superb defensive acumen and only in very rare cases tolerate an unreal offensive production to substitute for defensive abilities (Green, Karlsson for instance). If a defender cannot be your go to go on the PK 6 minutes a night, I'm hesitant to believe he's a top pairing defender. On the other hand, a superb offensive defender with average to above average defensive abilities is easily a strong #3 defender that leads their pairing on the 2nd unit (or 1st for less skilled teams).

If EJ suddenly couldn't score, he could still provide you game changing defensive plays. If Shattenkirk suddenly couldn't score he'd be an above-average defender hardly getting 2nd pairing minutes.

Granted there's more to it than that, like how some of the best shutdown defenseman isn't a top pairing defender either. But my point is still the same, one of the two has top pairing defensive play.


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01-30-2013, 12:06 PM
  #110
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Dan Boyle-esque and yet not as good as Dan Boyle. We (you and I, not other people) are caught up in semantics here. I consider a top pairing defender to require superb defensive acumen and only in very rare cases tolerate an unreal offensive production to substitute for defensive abilities (Green, Karlsson for instance). If a defender cannot be your go to go on the PK 6 minutes a night, I'm hesitant to believe he's a top pairing defender. On the other hand, a superb offensive defender with average to above average defensive abilities is easily a strong #3 defender that leads their pairing on the 2nd unit (or 1st for less skilled teams).

If EJ suddenly couldn't score, he could still provide you game changing defensive plays. If Shattenkirk suddenly couldn't score he'd be an above-average defender hardly getting 2nd pairing minutes.

Granted there's more to it than that, like how some of the best shutdown defenseman isn't a top pairing defender either. But my point is still the same, one of the two has top pairing defensive play.
Honestly, with respects to Dan Boyle and Sharks fans, he's quickly approaching. I can't argue with the bolded if we're also assuming that Shattenkirk would then lose his ability to make an outlet pass. That's what makes him so dangerous defensively. He's crafty and physical enough that he can push you off the puck long enough to send the puck the other way...he's a counterstrike defender that's nasty to play against 1 on 1, where as I see EJ as a much more dominant zone/space defender.

I'm not saying that EJ isn't punishing 1-1, but he's not going to consistently separate a David Backes, Dustin Brown, Joe Thornton, Cory Perry, TJ Oshie, Ryan Clowe, etc... off of the puck, whereas Shattenkirk's game is all about positioning/matching a player stride for stride until the opportunity to pin and/or swipe appears.

There's an isolation video out there in Youtube land with Shatty vs. Malkin when Malkin was on a tear...I think you would be impressed, and see exactly what I'm talking about. His 1-1 coverage is akin to a rabid animal.

Again, EJ is the better defender and I can't argue with your scenario, but don't be surprised if Shattenkirk is the one playing on Suter's right come Olympic time...Shattenkirk's hockey IQ permeates to both sides of the puck.

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01-30-2013, 12:15 PM
  #111
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Honestly, with respects to Dan Boyle and Sharks fans, he's quickly approaching. I can't argue with the bolded if we're also assuming that Shattenkirk would then lose his ability to make an outlet pass. That's what makes him so dangerous defensively. He's crafty and physical enough that he can push you off the puck long enough to send the puck the other way...he's a counterstrike defender that's nasty to play against 1 on 1, where as I see EJ as a much more dominant zone/space defender.

I'm not saying that EJ isn't punishing 1-1, but he's not going to consistently separate a David Backes, Dustin Brown, Joe Thornton, Cory Perry, TJ Oshie, Ryan Clowe, etc... off of the puck, whereas Shattenkirk's game is all about positioning/matching a player stride for stride until the opportunity to pin and/or swipe appears.

There's an isolation video out there in Youtube land with Shatty vs. Malkin when Malkin was on a tear...I think you would be impressed, and see exactly what I'm talking about. His 1-1 coverage is akin to a rabid animal.

Again, EJ is the better defender and I can't argue with your scenario, but don't be surprised if Shattenkirk is the one playing on Suter's right come Olympic time...Shattenkirk's hockey IQ permeates to both sides of the puck.
I wouldn't surprised if Kirk was on Suter's right at all, he's a phenomenal offensive talent but needs a reliable defensive player to handle the zones (or net) as you so accurately put it. Although I'd expect Yandle to get that spot regardless of handedness and McDonagh to pair with Kirk. (EJ and JJ the 2nd/3rd pairing)

I agree with your post pretty much 100% to be honest. And my scenario was pretty damning for someone like Shattenkirk, but it's what I feel is the best requirement for someone to be a top pairing defender I've come up with so far.

EJ really is the complete defensive package. If he fails to strip the puck with his stick, he's fast enough and physical enough to gain the zone back over most players (sans your power forward types you brought up, which are power forwards due to those very reasons themselves) and he's strong enough to shrug off most players along the boards. He pins them, wins the battle. He blocks shots at key times, he can crush a guy like anyone else.

He's like a swiss army knife on defense, whatever role I need him in he's suitable for. Where he lacks is an area Avs fans still hope a suitable partner and/or coach could correct for him, his offensive game.

I'm glad to feel like I'm having a real conversation with a Blues fan rather than an argument, so thanks for that.


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01-30-2013, 12:25 PM
  #112
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I wouldn't surprised if Kirk was on Suter's right at all, he's a phenomenal offensive talent but needs a reliable defensive player to handle the zones as you so accurately put it. Although I'd expect Yandle to get that spot regardless of handedness and McDonagh to pair with Kirk. (EJ and JJ the 2nd/3rd pairing)

I agree with your post pretty much 100% to be honest. And my scenario was pretty damning for someone like Shattenkirk, but it's what I feel is the best requirement for someone to be a top pairing defender I've come up with so far.

EJ really is the complete defensive package. If he fails to strip the puck with his stick, he's fast enough and physical enough to gain the zone back over most players (sans your power forward types you brought up, which are power forwards due to those very reasons themselves) and he's strong enough to shrug off most players along the boards. He pins them, wins the battle. He blocks shots at key times, he can crush a guy like anyone else.

He's like a swiss army knife on defense, whatever role I need him in he's suitable for. Where he lacks is an area Avs fans still hope a suitable partner and/or coach could correct for him, his offensive game.

I'm glad to feel like I'm having a real conversation with a Blues fan rather than an argument, so thanks for that.
It is nice to have a real conversation on here! Honestly, I was, and still am, a big fan of EJs. His physical tools are something to behold, and he's got a really great attitude. Very sincere.

His offensive game is very perplexing, but I think it stems from him being able to dominate players end to end so much that he never had to learn how to utilize his teammates heading up the ice. If a coach can bring that out in him then...whew...watch out.

I have Yandle on EJ's left, FWIW...pretty nasty top 2 pairings

Still, Canada with Doughty/Weber -- Petro, and sweden with OEL -- Karllson...lord have mercy.

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01-30-2013, 01:04 PM
  #113
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I'll admit I haven't seen a lot of EJ, but from what I have seen he has settled down and improved a lot.

Shattenkirks defense is wildly underrated here. He can battle on the boards with anybody. He is deceptively strong.

I would give Shatty the nod right now based on the fact I think they are comparible defensively but Shatty is way ahead offensively.

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01-30-2013, 01:48 PM
  #114
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I'll admit I haven't seen a lot of EJ, but from what I have seen he has settled down and improved a lot.

Shattenkirks defense is wildly underrated here. He can battle on the boards with anybody. He is deceptively strong.

I would give Shatty the nod right now based on the fact I think they are comparible defensively but Shatty is way ahead offensively.
Yeah, the difference between the two for me is Shattys offensive ability. For whatever reason, EJs offensive output has taken a step back from his first couple of years. Some of it is certainly attributed to facing tougher players, but I think he just lacks great hockey sense, especially in the offensive zone. He can put the puck on another players stick, but his vision slow and uncreative; his shot is powerful, but he isnt great at putting himself in scoring positions.

Shatty is one of the best puck movers in the league, and has also been a great power play producer. He really adheres to the "best defense is a good offense" strategy, he is a fantastic puck handler.

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01-30-2013, 02:02 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
Honestly, with respects to Dan Boyle and Sharks fans, he's quickly approaching. I can't argue with the bolded if we're also assuming that Shattenkirk would then lose his ability to make an outlet pass. That's what makes him so dangerous defensively. He's crafty and physical enough that he can push you off the puck long enough to send the puck the other way...he's a counterstrike defender that's nasty to play against 1 on 1, where as I see EJ as a much more dominant zone/space defender.

I'm not saying that EJ isn't punishing 1-1, but he's not going to consistently separate a David Backes, Dustin Brown, Joe Thornton, Cory Perry, TJ Oshie, Ryan Clowe, etc... off of the puck, whereas Shattenkirk's game is all about positioning/matching a player stride for stride until the opportunity to pin and/or swipe appears.

There's an isolation video out there in Youtube land with Shatty vs. Malkin when Malkin was on a tear...I think you would be impressed, and see exactly what I'm talking about. His 1-1 coverage is akin to a rabid animal.

Again, EJ is the better defender and I can't argue with your scenario, but don't be surprised if Shattenkirk is the one playing on Suter's right come Olympic time...Shattenkirk's hockey IQ permeates to both sides of the puck.
*shrug* EJ's done it when he's been healthy for us so why would he suddenly stop? He's been amazing taking the puck away from even great players one on one. He's done absolutely everything you could ask from a defensemen who's regularly cleaning up for everybody else. Add how bad our team is at holding possession of the puck in the offensive zone and EJ has no choice but to be constantly thinking about his defensive responsibilities.

Only things I want to see from him is to learn how to create room for his shot more since he's not going to be getting set up very well, and to get mad more often, when he plays mad he gets involved all over the ice and just beasts, and when he's doing that he has the speed and instincts to get back when the puck starts going the other way.


Last edited by cgf: 01-30-2013 at 02:08 PM.
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01-30-2013, 02:09 PM
  #116
taylord22
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
*shrug* EJ's done it when he's been healthy for us so why would he suddenly stop? He's been amazing taking the puck away from even great players one on one.
Well, by contrast, I don't know why Shatty would suddenly stop being awesome at defending 1-1/stripping the puck and firing it the other way...because he's been amazing at both of those things. But mainly, it's his intelligence and speed getting to loose pucks. He's a HUGE part of the reason we can play the defensive game that we do.

I've got nothing against EJ, and wasn't attempting to be overly critical of his game, and even concede he's the better all around defender...I'm fighting against labels placed on Shattenkirk's game during his rookie year. He's grown in size and defensive ability greatly over the last 2 years.


Last edited by taylord22: 01-30-2013 at 02:22 PM.
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01-30-2013, 02:56 PM
  #117
LetsGoBLUES91
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
What is a #2 defender if not a #1 around half the league?

Sure, he's a #2 compared to Pietrangelo, but there's around 8-12 teams in the league EJ would be #1 on. If that's not a #1 defender so be it, but he's still in the upper echelon of the entire league's defense. HF ranking him around ~20 iirc.

He's not slightly better than Shattenkirk defensively, he's another level above Shattenkirk. The type of defender that isn't just good positionally and with his stick, but has the physical tools to back up his play and win the battles. Shattenkirk cannot play defense like EJ can, that's why we traded him to acquire EJ, EJ is a clear upgrade defensively.

Kirk is akin to a good #3 defender, leads the charge offensively but doesn't quite have that defensive ability to control the play defensively. EJ is akin to a good #2, controls the defensive area and can lead the rush offensively, just doesn't have the finish of Shattenkirk.

If the Avs had a competent team offensively, EJ would have far different offensive numbers. Instead we're one of the worst teams at the moment.

Also, people need to throw out the competition stats, Sacco is an incompetent coach that used EJ less than Wilson despite the most uneducated of hockey fan being able to clearly see which of those two are better. We have bigger issues than whether Shattenkirk or EJ are better in Colorado.
There's so much wrong in this post. I don't even know where to start.

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