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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Isles - YIKES

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Old
01-30-2013, 02:04 AM
  #351
Dangles78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadianguy77 View Post
I think that we need some guys who are ready to play now. With Sid and Geno (if he re-signs) we have a window of about 6-8 years. The 18-20 year-olds that we've drafted, aren't really going to be able to help this team out. At least not for another 3-4 years. And they're almost all defensemen. Defencemen just take longer to turn into bona-fide Nhl players.

We need to start winning cups now. I think Shero should send one of our defensive prospects, with a Kunitz or Dupuis, and a first round pick, and pick up a 22-25 year old winger who above all, has some speed and decent hands. Anyone here who doesn't think Grabner could score 40 on Sid's flank?
I think this team will see an "overhaul" in the next coming years. Kenny is ready to make the jump, Archibald (like I've said before) is surprising people, Hano may become what we think he is.

The fact is. If everything goes right. We have a 3C model with Sid, Geno and Sutter. It's a matter of filling in the gaps. Shero has done fine. There needs to be more patience with him opposed to DB. This team in a year or two will be dominant, trust me, but not with this coaching system in place.

X-Crosby-Bennett
X-Malkin-Neal
Agostino-Sutter-X
X-Vitale-X

Those X's, IMO, can be filled easily in the next coming years because of UFA opportunities and development of players in the system.

I won't even bother with the defense core because as long as Letang is able to be resigned then we are golden. I'm a BC homer, but when I say Dumoulin is the real deal, people need to trust me. We are fine on the backend as long as whatever coaching system is in place trust younger players (cough, cough).

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01-30-2013, 02:17 AM
  #352
deakka
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Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
No we wouldn't.

We have plenty of opportunity to fill the 2 LW hole. Trading a franchise goalie for a solid 2nd liner (tweener to some) and a backup goalie only sets the Pens back.

Though I think coaching is an issue...I don't think the Pens "future" is a concern. Seriously...for drafting late in most years we have Morrow, Pouliot, Hanowski, Agostino, Maatta, Bluegers, Bennett Harrington, etc. Though most aren't "blue chip", they can help us in the future. Shero needs to create a team that can compete year in and year out and the fill in the holes with these draft picks.

We NEED faith in the players we select. We don't know what we have until we see them play at the NHL level. Any one of them could come here (regardless of their past) and rip the **** outta this league.
Hes a franchise goalie in the sense that he belongs to our franchise. He hasnt done anything to step up as a FRANCHISE goalie.

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01-30-2013, 02:19 AM
  #353
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Hes a franchise goalie in the sense that he belongs to our franchise. He hasnt done anything to step up as a FRANCHISE goalie.
That's beside the point. He's still a HUGE upgrade over Reimer (and almost in the elite category) and Kulemin doesn't do anything for this team. He may be a fit on the 2nd line but he doesn't set us apart from deeper teams...

My point remains.

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01-30-2013, 02:38 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
That's beside the point. He's still a HUGE upgrade over Reimer (and almost in the elite category) and Kulemin doesn't do anything for this team. He may be a fit on the 2nd line but he doesn't set us apart from deeper teams...

My point remains.
Its is a lousy point as having Vokoun as a number two playing a limited (for him) number of games decreases the value he has.

Personally I think Vokoun is better than Fleury, and the net gain in points of having him start Fleury's games would be bigger than the loss from having Reimer take Vokoun's starts. But as that is (despite of everything) a minority view here, say for arguments sake that Fleury is better than Vokoun, the net loss would not be significant.
I would greatly prefer adding Kulemin to Malkin's line and having extra cap-space to find a winger for Sid also, and in any case I think Fleury could likely net more than this anyway. At least if any GM agrees with you that he is a franchise goalie.

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01-30-2013, 02:42 AM
  #355
M0NTY26
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+ We will not make the playoffs playing like this and then we'll win the lottery for the first overall pick. Then, with the 2013, 1st overall selection, the Pittsburgh Penguins will proudly select, out of the USHL, Seth Jones!!!!!!

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01-30-2013, 02:49 AM
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Its is a lousy point as having Vokoun as a number two playing a limited (for him) number of games decreases the value he has.

Personally I think Vokoun is better than Fleury, and the net gain in points of having him start Fleury's games would be bigger than the loss from having Reimer take Vokoun's starts. But as that is (despite of everything) a minority view here, say for arguments sake that Fleury is better than Vokoun, the net loss would not be significant.
I would greatly prefer adding Kulemin to Malkin's line and having extra cap-space to find a winger for Sid also, and in any case I think Fleury could likely net more than this anyway. At least if any GM agrees with you that he is a franchise goalie.
ha ha ha...what? Vokoun is a great goaltender but he's on the older side. He's not the future! You want to trade Fleury to upgrade the wing position? This board has gone full-Rossi.

COACHING

COACHING

Wait...what? COACHING is the problem. This team is in place for another Cup run. It is a matter of fitting in the X's. We have both the offensive and defensive pool to do so. Add in a large UFA crop the coming years....let's hope Shero makes another run at that X spot.

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01-30-2013, 02:54 AM
  #357
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ha ha ha...what? Vokoun is a great goaltender but he's on the older side.
So what? He can be a solution now and next year, and then we find another short term solution in free agency. Rather that than wasting more time waiting for Mr. Godot, the beautiful unique franchise snow flake who has a spine carved from Mount Marsh-mellow.

Quote:
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He is not the future!
No time like the present.

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Old
01-30-2013, 03:01 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
So what? He can be a solution now and next year, and then we find another short term solution in free agency. Rather that than wasting more time waiting for Mr. Godot, the beautiful unique franchise snow flake who has a spine carved from Mount Marsh-mellow.



No time like the present.
Yaaa...uhhhh...

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01-30-2013, 03:14 AM
  #359
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Old
01-30-2013, 03:15 AM
  #360
M0NTY26
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+ We will not make the playoffs playing like this and then we'll win the lottery for the first overall pick. Then, with the 2013, 1st overall selection, the Pittsburgh Penguins will proudly select, out of the USHL, Seth Jones!!!!!!

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01-30-2013, 03:19 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by M0NTY26 View Post
+ We will not make the playoffs playing like this and then we'll win the lottery for the first overall pick. Then, with the 2013, 1st overall selection, the Pittsburgh Penguins will proudly select, out of the USHL, Seth Jones!!!!!!
Uhhhhh.....


.....uhhhhh

......

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Old
01-30-2013, 03:46 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by M0NTY26 View Post
+ We will not make the playoffs playing like this and then we'll win the lottery for the first overall pick. Then, with the 2013, 1st overall selection, the Pittsburgh Penguins will proudly select, out of the USHL, Seth Jones!!!!!!
Only Seth Jones I know plays for the Portland Winterhawks of the WHL. hehe

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Old
01-30-2013, 04:02 AM
  #363
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Maybe there is another Seth Jones in the USHL! Shero type. Big, no hands, plays a denting style of game..... Yep, he would be our 1st overall for sure

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01-30-2013, 04:09 AM
  #364
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I don't think I'm buying this idea that our roster is just too top heavy offensively to compete. I mean sure, I'd love to add another top 6 winger and I think they'll ultimately have to at some point. But that isn't the problem we're seeing right now. Let's not forget that this is, more or less, the same group of forwards that scored more goals than any other group in the league last season. And that was with Crosby out most of the year.

What we're seeing now is a team that is pretty clearly disinterested. No trade is going to fix that. It's either going to take a monumental effort on the players' part to just get past their frustrations or it's going to take a coaching change(whether Bylsma actually deserves it or not). But I fear we're going to be saying "It's still early" until it's too late and another year of Sid/Geno's prime will slip away.

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01-30-2013, 04:49 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
I don't think I'm buying this idea that our roster is just too top heavy offensively to compete. I mean sure, I'd love to add another top 6 winger and I think they'll ultimately have to at some point. But that isn't the problem we're seeing right now. Let's not forget that this is, more or less, the same group of forwards that scored more goals than any other group in the league last season. And that was with Crosby out most of the year.

What we're seeing now is a team that is pretty clearly disinterested. No trade is going to fix that. It's either going to take a monumental effort on the players' part to just get past their frustrations or it's going to take a coaching change(whether Bylsma actually deserves it or not). But I fear we're going to be saying "It's still early" until it's too late and another year of Sid/Geno's prime will slip away.
Just my 2 cents here but the Islanders roster had 11 players playing since October(and that includes 4 of their defensemen and 3 of their top 6). Pittsburgh just looked out of sync which can be expected this early into a season(normal seasons this would be like the last week of training camp). I am guessing by the lastest game 10 the Penguins will be into a better groove.

.500 hockey might not be playoff hockey but if they can hold that up till they get out of the rut(and hopefully they don't by next Tuesday when the Islanders play them again because we can use every point we can get. lol) they should make the playoffs easily.

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01-30-2013, 05:02 AM
  #366
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I know the islanders arent as bad as they used to be. But seeing us score only 1 goal against that defense is a LOOOOW for me.

You better be working the phones Ray!

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01-30-2013, 06:28 AM
  #367
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Wow. Such a poor performance it’s impossible single out anyone individually. Good performance by the Islanders though.

As others have said, Després was one of the few players to show up today. I was (pleasantly) surprised with how physical he played, and he had numerous good breakout passes and seemed to win his individual battles. He also seemed to be on the ice the few times we had any extended play in the offensive zone. Obviously there were some mistakes along the way, but I liked a lot of what I saw.

I also want to see more of Jeffrey with Malkin and Neal. He had a couple of nice plays and didn’t seem to be a liability out there.

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01-30-2013, 06:46 AM
  #368
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--- Zach Parise for not coming here. Hope his balls freeze off up there.

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01-30-2013, 07:16 AM
  #369
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I'm actually quite worried after seeing the game. It just seems like those Tampa teams from a few years past. Three top-of-the-league players surrounded by a bunch of decent grinders and a very mediocre defense topped off with questionable goaltending at times. Of course they didn't have Crosby and Malkin, but Sid looks disinterested at the moment and Malkin very frustrated. Sutter has been a big disappointment, but that's probably because of my expectations. Still Neal didn't exactly light it up either when he first arrived.

It's not that I thought we were a favourite for the cup, but atleast I assumed the playoffs would be an easily accomplished goal. Even that seems like a reach, it looks like we'll be in the battle for the last three spots. I don't think this is one of those early season ruts you shrug off, it seems more like of a continuation of last years muddle-in-the-middle play...both boring and inconsistent hockey.

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01-30-2013, 07:23 AM
  #370
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+ Depres looked at least average. That's a hell of a sight better than just about everyone else.

- This was a frightening game to watch. The Pens have endured some bad spots over the last few years, but on the whole there have been a lot more pluses than minuses. This game, and the last several dozen games have actually been sad - because whether we won or lost, most of the competitive fire that seemed to drive this team has been absent.

- I wasn't angry for much of the game last night. As a fan, looking at a team with no pride that seemed resigned to its fate was just depressing.

+ I'm still happy the lockout is over

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01-30-2013, 07:54 AM
  #371
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If Bylsma was let go then who would guys want to see replace him?

Sutter?
Leclaire?

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01-30-2013, 08:11 AM
  #372
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I've watched my fair share of Penguins meltdowns the last few years. Let me explain what the trend has been.

Goaltending, you don't always notice it, but its there. The Pens are not emotionally mature enough to handle getting scored on when they are trying to get to "their game". Fleury makes this issue worse because hes just not very good at stopping pucks anymore.

I thought they responded well to goal #1. That was the first time they didn't score first all year. They came back with a few good shifts, and then a really good start to the 2nd period. The Islanders were starting to cave. Had this continued for another 5 minutes we might be talking about a different story. But it was like i could predict what would happen next, because i've seen it replayed about 2 dozen times in the last 3 years. The Islanders got 1 turnover, 1 scoring chance, and our goalie couldn't make 1 save. That broke our team's will to compete the rest of the night.

It seems like certain teams bring this out of the Pens more then others. Toronto, Montreal, Islanders, Tampa Bay.. just to name a few. I don't think its coaching. I think its the fact this team has zero faith in its netminder.. that they don't even bother to compete once they get down in a game. They know its pointless. They've all been through it before. Why work hard when your goaltender will let you down?

The solution is really this. Dump half the team and hit a reset button, or dump the goalie.

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01-30-2013, 08:11 AM
  #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
So that was the light at the end of the lockout tunnel?

I rarely get so ticked off after a game. In fact, I defended patience and even defended MT in 2008 until it got this bad. It's just the endless frustration of watching a great team play with zero effort. There was no passion in last night's game. Popping in the tape from 2009 and boom.. you see this immense passion to want to play because they just felt the Cup was within their grasp.

I don't blame coaching because Bylsma is the worst coach.. I blame it because the players (who should be responsible) just aren't listening. When you come out w/ that lack of focus, lack of passion, lack of dedication... that's a HUGE issue. Especially because the players were freaking admitting to it prior to the game in interviews! Just about everyone admitted they need to come out fast and play 60 minutes and then they give us that disgusting ****.

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01-30-2013, 08:26 AM
  #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NastyNick View Post
I've watched my fair share of Penguins meltdowns the last few years. Let me explain what the trend has been.

Goaltending, you don't always notice it, but its there. The Pens are not emotionally mature enough to handle getting scored on when they are trying to get to "their game". Fleury makes this issue worse because hes just not very good at stopping pucks anymore.

I thought they responded well to goal #1. That was the first time they didn't score first all year. They came back with a few good shifts, and then a really good start to the 2nd period. The Islanders were starting to cave. Had this continued for another 5 minutes we might be talking about a different story. But it was like i could predict what would happen next, because i've seen it replayed about 2 dozen times in the last 3 years. The Islanders got 1 turnover, 1 scoring chance, and our goalie couldn't make 1 save. That broke our team's will to compete the rest of the night.

It seems like certain teams bring this out of the Pens more then others. Toronto, Montreal, Islanders, Tampa Bay.. just to name a few. I don't think its coaching. I think its the fact this team has zero faith in its netminder.. that they don't even bother to compete once they get down in a game. They know its pointless. They've all been through it before. Why work hard when your goaltender will let you down?

The solution is really this. Dump half the team and hit a reset button, or dump the goalie.
What a bunch of BS. Did you even watch the team in the past years? The Pens have been in the top3 or top5 since 2007 for win% if they trail first. Yeah, they have seen that before and like always don't care once they fall behind.

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01-30-2013, 08:28 AM
  #375
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Can someone explain to me why Despres was not used on the PP?

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