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Pierre Gauthier was terrible but...

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01-30-2013, 01:33 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Until you can prove Gauthier was the driving force behind ANY of Gaineys moves I can't take them into account. Gainey had the last word and the fault lies with him ultimately. I don't see anyone laying blame for Kaberle or Bourque on PG's head of pro scouting so why all of a sudden is this special set of rules being used?

If you want to discuss the moves made during PG's tenure as GM so be it even though I have went over them ad nauseum.

I know the faithful are ever so desperate to explain Gaineys utter failure away on the nearest scapegoat but I don't buy it.
Well there you have it, I think you unintentionally gave an answer for your Gauthier support.

BTW Gauthier was BOTH GM and head of Pro Scouting during his GM tenure so yes, he gets full credit for Bourque and Kaberle. He also gets credit on helping to find Gorges. How is it 'common sense' to think the Gauthier wouldn't done his job and was involved in Gainey's decisions when he was holding Assistant GM and Head of Pro Scouting positions? I think it's silly to think Dudley has no say/influence in Bergevin's tenure so far for example. The blame still lies on Gainey for pulling the trigger on the moves during his tenure but you still can't absolve the guy who helped load the gun. Gainey resigning and passing his 'work' over to his right hand man was lateral move from the start. How many other GM hiring have you witnessed where former GM is at the press conference pumping the successor's tires sitting right beside him?

That ultimately wasn't a move in a new direction. There was very little difference in both GMs tenure. If you actually went through the transaction history you'd see that the Habs haven't really had a good GM in decades. Lateral and minimal improvements are so rare that even they are regarded as something to praise.

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01-30-2013, 10:17 AM
  #177
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The guy was traded the following day after his mini rant (which he apologized for.) And the guy who he traded him for was suspended. There was no need to do it when he did.

And no, I don't think that he seriously shopped Cammy around and the fact that he was traded the next day and the circumstances of the trade (middle of the game and for a suspended player) are proof of this. It was a knee jerk reactionary trade designed to save face for PG and a desperate grab at possibly grabbing the final playoff spot. If you can't see this with the circumstances under which it was done, there's no convincing you. The facts speak for themselves.
Sure Cammy's rant contributed to the timing of the trade, I never denied that. But he was being shopped around well before then which means it wasn't a knee jerk reaction. That fact also speaks for itself no? But hey at least you've gone from not shopped around to not seriously shopped. I guess that's progress

You're also assuming that Cammy's trade value was going to start getting higher as we approached trade deadline. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with this sentiment but I can understand it if PG decided too trade Cammy before Cammy damaged his value even more with more bad comments and/or listless play.

And finally if PG was making a deseprate grab at a playoff spot, he wouldn't trade Cammy at all, he would've traded prospects/picks for a guy like Bourque instead of aquiring prospects/picks. If anything Cammy's rant provided cover for PG to basically give up on the playoffs and to start selling assets.

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01-30-2013, 10:30 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Well there you have it, I think you unintentionally gave an answer for your Gauthier support.

BTW Gauthier was BOTH GM and head of Pro Scouting during his GM tenure so yes, he gets full credit for Bourque and Kaberle. He also gets credit on helping to find Gorges. How is it 'common sense' to think the Gauthier wouldn't done his job and was involved in Gainey's decisions when he was holding Assistant GM and Head of Pro Scouting positions? I think it's silly to think Dudley has no say/influence in Bergevin's tenure so far for example. The blame still lies on Gainey for pulling the trigger on the moves during his tenure but you still can't absolve the guy who helped load the gun. Gainey resigning and passing his 'work' over to his right hand man was lateral move from the start. How many other GM hiring have you witnessed where former GM is at the press conference pumping the successor's tires sitting right beside him?

That ultimately wasn't a move in a new direction. There was very little difference in both GMs tenure. If you actually went through the transaction history you'd see that the Habs haven't really had a good GM in decades. Lateral and minimal improvements are so rare that even they are regarded as something to praise.
False

Larry Carriere came over and took that position, PG said it during a media interview when LC was hired.


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01-30-2013, 11:08 AM
  #179
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False

Larry Carriere came over and took that position, PG said it during a media interview when LC was hired.
He was on the bench last season as an assistant coach...if he did hold the head pro scout position it'd explain a lot.


http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=534501

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“We are extremely happy to announce the appointment of Larry Carrière as Assistant General Manager/Player Personnel. Larry brings with him an important background in the NHL in several key areas such as recruitment, player evaluation and player development. He will be a key contributor to our hockey management team”, said Canadiens general manager Pierre Gauthier.

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01-30-2013, 11:24 AM
  #180
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He was on the bench last season as an assistant coach...if he did hold the head pro scout position it'd explain a lot.


http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=534501
yup

Still probably the worse coaching staff every, the two Randy's + LC/ Groulx (goalie coach

Like someone said, I think PG should be judge on the moves he made as GM, because you don't have the details on what was going on when he was ast GM, GM's and ast GM don't always agree on things.

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01-30-2013, 11:31 AM
  #181
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Just thought of something... who's still around from that management/coaching staff? I know they released quite a few names but if I remember right LC is still within the org right?

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01-30-2013, 11:31 AM
  #182
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Just thought of something... who's still around from that management/coaching staff? I know they released quite a few names but if I remember right LC is still within the org right?
Yes Larry is still part of the team

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01-30-2013, 11:39 AM
  #183
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Just thought of something... who's still around from that management/coaching staff? I know they released quite a few names but if I remember right LC is still within the org right?
hmm pretty much kept the same scouts, PG fired a few scouts and hired different ones, when he took over from Gainey, so those guys are still there, plus the guys added by Bergevin.

Patrick Boivin is still the guy handling the cap.

Pretty much just PG gone, and old coaching expect for goalie coach Pierre Groulx.

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01-30-2013, 03:35 PM
  #184
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yup

Still probably the worse coaching staff every, the two Randy's + LC/ Groulx (goalie coach

Like someone said, I think PG should be judge on the moves he made as GM, because you don't have the details on what was going on when he was ast GM, GM's and ast GM don't always agree on things.
The two Randys got us Galchenyuk and Collberg, it was a strategic tank so I can appreciate the means to the end.

In one season Gauthier solved almost all of our problems. Bergevin has made some great moves himself but Gauthier did the lion share and took the brunt of the anger it generated.

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01-30-2013, 03:37 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
The two Randys got us Galchenyuk and Collberg, it was a strategic tank so I can appreciate the means to the end.

In one season Gauthier solved almost all of our problems. Bergevin has made some great moves himself but Gauthier did the lion share and took the brunt of the anger it generated.
Are you ****ing high?

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01-30-2013, 04:24 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
The two Randys got us Galchenyuk and Collberg, it was a strategic tank so I can appreciate the means to the end.

In one season Gauthier solved almost all of our problems. Bergevin has made some great moves himself but Gauthier did the lion share and took the brunt of the anger it generated.
So he got kaberle and bourque to tank but a second later kaberle and bourque are great assets to win with? I dunno, which is it? I don't think he 'strategically' tanked. Because if this was a plan management had in place he wouldn't be fired.

It just happened, habs had a bad year. Dunno why we praise a GM because his team sucked.

Maybe we should re-hire Martin and Cunneyworth? They were part of the strategy!

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Are you ****ing high?
Whatever it is, looks strong.

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01-30-2013, 04:29 PM
  #187
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All as I know is so far.......... that Calgary and Nashville 2nd is looking pretty good.

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01-30-2013, 04:48 PM
  #188
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Sure Cammy's rant contributed to the timing of the trade, I never denied that. But he was being shopped around well before then which means it wasn't a knee jerk reaction. That fact also speaks for itself no? But hey at least you've gone from not shopped around to not seriously shopped. I guess that's progress
I don't know what you're talking about man.

It was well known that the Flames were shopping Bourque around. Kelly Hrudey had a rant on it back in the fall of last season and he said it was an absolute joke if Calgary's mgmt had some buyers on the line. No doubt they wanted Cammy because he'd been sucessful there and there's no doubt they called the Habs. So yeah, I'm sure they talked too and nobody denies this. That's not the same as shopping him around.

Moreover the day after the trade several GMs said they would've dealt for Cammy but had no idea he was available. So NO he did not get shopped.
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You're also assuming that Cammy's trade value was going to start getting higher as we approached trade deadline. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with this sentiment but I can understand it if PG decided too trade Cammy before Cammy damaged his value even more with more bad comments and/or listless play.
I'll repeat what I said back then... if that's the best we could do... then just keep Cammy.

There's no way that's the best we could do though because other GMs came out and said they'd have given more. It was on Sportsnet all day with those guys talking about it. And in fact they were talking about it BEFORE the deal went down because Cammy had made the comments.
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And finally if PG was making a deseprate grab at a playoff spot, he wouldn't trade Cammy at all, he would've traded prospects/picks for a guy like Bourque instead of aquiring prospects/picks. If anything Cammy's rant provided cover for PG to basically give up on the playoffs and to start selling assets.
It was a combination of both. He wanted to get rid of Cammy right away. That was the underlying factor. He had a team that had knocked on his door and he took a wild stab at a player with great tools but no heart (who was STILL under suspension.) It was entirely a short term move with a window dressing 2nd and middling prospect to come along with it.

You are arguing for the sake of it here man. You can have the final word on this if you want. It's been discussed to death and it's pretty black and white. The circumstances are there for everyone to see. You can spin this however you want, it's still a panic kneejerk move that wasn't designed for longterm success.
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The two Randys got us Galchenyuk and Collberg, it was a strategic tank so I can appreciate the means to the end.

In one season Gauthier solved almost all of our problems. Bergevin has made some great moves himself but Gauthier did the lion share and took the brunt of the anger it generated.
How the **** was it a strategic tank? The guy did everything he could to get 8th. If it was a strategic tank he would've traded for picks and prospects instead of going for guys like Bourque and Kaberle. How the hell is going for Kaberle and saddling us with his contract a 'strategic tank? Spacek actually sucked more than Kaberle did but was on the last year of his contract so wtf are you talking about?

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01-30-2013, 05:08 PM
  #189
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So he got kaberle and bourque to tank but a second later kaberle and bourque are great assets to win with? I dunno, which is it? I don't think he 'strategically' tanked. Because if this was a plan management had in place he wouldn't be fired.

It just happened, habs had a bad year. Dunno why we praise a GM because his team sucked.

Maybe we should re-hire Martin and Cunneyworth? They were part of the strategy!



Whatever it is, looks strong.
He traded high priced Cammy for prospects, picks and Bourque who was at a low point in an otherwise good career. The trade saved us cap space and got us a possible late 1st rounder, what more do you want? Bourque was probably not Gauthiers choice, I think he wanted Glencross but getting rid of Cammy was the real meat and potatoes here, it is like the Gomez trade from the Rangers perspective.

Kaberle was another depth dman who was at a low point and Spacek was garbage. If Kaberle could turn his game around he would be a very valuable asset come deadline. It was probably more of a gamble than anything but a smart one, Spacek was worth nothing and Kaberle is playing well.

Gauthier knew the backlash was coming so tough decisions were made, someone had to take the fall and set the team in a "new direction". He had too many ties to Gainey and his reign of terror. The Montreal fanbase is not exactly known for its critical thinking, seeing the tank for what it was never even crosses people minds. This team was built by Gauthier, like it or not.

Why would we rehire the Randys? The tank is over, we got our elite forward, time to move on. You don't make any sense.

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01-30-2013, 05:14 PM
  #190
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First, you can't say Gauthier fired JM to tank, that is stupid, why would he than trade for Kaberle, who I think we'll turn out to be a decent trade in the sense that we'll trade Kaberle for a pick this year, and with the cap at 70M this year, and still 1 buy out, Kaberle was a decent move that can net us a pick.

Second, it was one GM that Leburn said wasn't aware that Cammy was up for graps, but he also said that he wouldn't have been interested anyways.

Not every GM likes to offer a guy they want to trade to all teams and tries to get the best offer out of them, some GM look around the league and look for players they want to trade for certain players. Either its best or not, its hard to judge, because there is a good and bad to that to both. Ex when Rivet was traded to the Sharks for Gorges and a 1st, the Ducks wanted Rivet, and Burke had told Gainey that he would wanted the last bid, but Gainey traded Rivet to San Jose because they had the player they wanted.

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01-30-2013, 05:20 PM
  #191
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Like I said Kaberle was a way to get value for Spacek, Gauthier was big on getting something for players where were not here to stay. Kaberle was a gamble that could either be turned into depth defense or a high draft pick at the deadline.

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01-30-2013, 05:22 PM
  #192
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Like I said Kaberle was a way to get value for Spacek, Gauthier was big on getting something for players where were not here to stay. Kaberle was a gamble that could either be turned into depth defense or a high draft pick at the deadline.
Agree, but if PG was looking to tank last year when he fired JM, why would he then turn around trade a pretty much useless Spacek for a guy in Kaberle that isn't good but would help the PP, and could lead to win games.

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01-30-2013, 05:26 PM
  #193
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Agree, but if PG was looking to tank last year when he fired JM, why would he then turn around trade a pretty much useless Spacek for a guy in Kaberle that isn't good but would help the PP, and could lead to win games.
I don't think he thought he was THAT good but just a nice piece going forward.

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01-30-2013, 05:27 PM
  #194
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Like I said Kaberle was a way to get value for Spacek, Gauthier was big on getting something for players where were not here to stay. Kaberle was a gamble that could either be turned into depth defense or a high draft pick at the deadline.
Dude, in all the time you've spent defending this guy I don't ever remember you saying he deliberately tanked. And now this is your position?

Why would he deal away Spacek who had a year left to go after Kaberle? So he could be turned into a high pick at the deadline with the contract he had? How does that make any sense at all? And wtf wouldn't Carolina just have held onto him themselves instead of dumping him the way they did?

I really don't understand you man.

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01-30-2013, 05:31 PM
  #195
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In fairness, Gauthier made some good moves that are slowly but surely starting to pay dividends.

Gauthier's biggest mistake was gambling everything on Markov being healthy in 2011-2012, and having no Plan B already in place in case Markov couldn't go. That's ultimately the main reason why 2011-2012 was such a total disaster.

Still, I think that Guathier's one disastrous year, and what came of it, will largely help the team long-term.

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01-30-2013, 05:33 PM
  #196
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I don't know what you're talking about man.

It was well known that the Flames were shopping Bourque around. Kelly Hrudey had a rant on it back in the fall of last season and he said it was an absolute joke if Calgary's mgmt had some buyers on the line. No doubt they wanted Cammy because he'd been sucessful there and there's no doubt they called the Habs. So yeah, I'm sure they talked too and nobody denies this. That's not the same as shopping him around.
So because Bourque was being shopped it means that Cammy wasn't. That's some great logic there. There's no evidence whatsoever on whether Cammy was shopped or not. You're making assumptions and treating them as facts.

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Moreover the day after the trade several GMs said they would've dealt for Cammy but had no idea he was available. So NO he did not get shopped.
I don't put much stock into what an annonymous GM claims he would've done. Factor in Cammy's no trade clause, and the desire to send him out west and it's not at all surprising.

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I'll repeat what I said back then... if that's the best we could do... then just keep Cammy.
Has no bearing on whether he was shopped around or not.

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There's no way that's the best we could do though because other GMs came out and said they'd have given more. It was on Sportsnet all day with those guys talking about it. And in fact they were talking about it BEFORE the deal went down because Cammy had made the comments.
I may be wrong but I don't remember hearing any GM saying they would have given more. I only remember some anonymous GM not knowing Cammy was available to be traded and they would've liked to have had the chance to make an offer. Trading disgruntled/underachieving "star" players like Cammy historically don't get good returns. Remember what Boston got for Joe Thornton?

And if Sportsnet spent all day talking about it and this anonymous GM was so interested in Cammy why didn't he pick up the phone.

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It was a combination of both. He wanted to get rid of Cammy right away. That was the underlying factor. He had a team that had knocked on his door and he took a wild stab at a player with great tools but no heart (who was STILL under suspension.) It was entirely a short term move with a window dressing 2nd and middling prospect to come along with it.
Trading for someone with a longer contract, plus getting picks/prospects is a short term move? Trading a player during an important game for a suspended player is trying to make the playoffs? How does that make any sense.

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01-30-2013, 05:35 PM
  #197
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In fairness, Gauthier made some good moves that are slowly but surely starting to pay dividends.

Gauthier's biggest mistake was gambling everything on Markov being healthy in 2011-2012, and having no Plan B already in place in case Markov couldn't go. That's ultimately the main reason why 2011-2012 was such a total disaster.

Still, I think that Guathier's one disastrous year, and what came of it, will largely help the team long-term.
It's too bad we waited so long to do it. We should've just accepted the rebuild back when Koivu left instead of wasting our time with Gomez and done it intentionally.

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01-30-2013, 05:38 PM
  #198
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Agree, but if PG was looking to tank last year when he fired JM, why would he then turn around trade a pretty much useless Spacek for a guy in Kaberle that isn't good but would help the PP, and could lead to win games.
It's hard to say when Gauthier threw in the towel. He was probably still trying to save the season when he traded for Kaberle and fired Martin. Most teams get a bounce with a new coach, we just got worse.

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01-30-2013, 05:40 PM
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In fairness, Gauthier made some good moves that are slowly but surely starting to pay dividends.

Gauthier's biggest mistake was gambling everything on Markov being healthy in 2011-2012, and having no Plan B already in place in case Markov couldn't go. That's ultimately the main reason why 2011-2012 was such a total disaster.

Still, I think that Guathier's one disastrous year, and what came of it, will largely help the team long-term.
My feelings exactly

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01-30-2013, 05:41 PM
  #200
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Dude, in all the time you've spent defending this guy I don't ever remember you saying he deliberately tanked. And now this is your position?

Why would he deal away Spacek who had a year left to go after Kaberle? So he could be turned into a high pick at the deadline with the contract he had? How does that make any sense at all? And wtf wouldn't Carolina just have held onto him themselves instead of dumping him the way they did?

I really don't understand you man.
That has been my position THE ENTIRE TIME, after we lost the first seven games our season was over. Gauthier was the first one with the balls to blow it up and that is why I like him.

Kaberles time was over in Carolina when they gutted him in the media and gave up on him. Look above for more explaination.

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