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Phoenix LXIX: Thread of LXIX

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Old
01-30-2013, 10:56 AM
  #676
Hawker14
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Personally I think this January 31 deadline is kind of a joke.

It's not the NHL's, and this is all that really matters imo. This story shall live to see another day, two weeks, until the spring, whatever. Still could be years.

As long as the COG keeps coughing up $25m/yr I just don't see Bettman closing this file.

Plus, this new council will probably be bamboozled too.

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01-30-2013, 11:00 AM
  #677
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I also belive that this may somehow come into play. I do not know how but it may be possible.

Of course this is assuming GJ and the JSG don't purchase the team today or tomorrow afternoon or tomorrow night.
Yeah, gramps Jamison may pull it off, good for us as it will probably keep this thread going a few more years, think of all the thread titles by then. Nothing like following the trials and tribulations of hockey in a desert.

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01-30-2013, 11:01 AM
  #678
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Originally Posted by wwwhowlinhockeycom View Post
Dbacks game mid June with nothing else going on.

Attendance 25,787 (53% full) - % is based on regular season capacity
Attendance figures with MLB franchises are nowhere near as important as they are with NHL franchises. The MLB is a significantly larger and healthier league than the NHL, and its members make a lot more money off merchandise/broadcasting/revenue sharing/etc. Comparing the MLB with the NHL is not a great way to defend the continued existence of the Coyotes if you're trying to be intellectually honest.

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01-30-2013, 11:10 AM
  #679
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Originally Posted by Hawker14 View Post
Personally I think this January 31 deadline is kind of a joke.

It's not the NHL's, and this is all that really matters imo. This story shall live to see another day, two weeks, until the spring, whatever. Still could be years.

As long as the COG keeps coughing up $25m/yr I just don't see Bettman closing this file.

Plus, this new council will probably be bamboozled too.

While it's obvious that if something isn't done by month end it will be over in Phoenix and questionable that something can be done within the next two days. I would suppose that stranger things have happened. Either way we'll all know soon.

Unless of course anyone does not believe the obvious.

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01-30-2013, 11:12 AM
  #680
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#2 I compared the Dbacks to show it's not hockey that's not working right now. It's Arizona that has not worked. BUT the economy is rebounding home prices are not only stabilizing they are rising so I actually think the Coyotes have a better chance of gaining market share with an owner who will: Market the team, bring in marquee free agents, commit to continue to put a winning product on the ice.

Suns are the staple of the Valley and Yotes play same time as they do. IMO that is the 2nd largest reason for the missing 4k fans per game. Largest is location. Was a mistake to put them in Glendale. All the $$ is on the East side. Scottsdale, Paradise Valley, and all SE of Tempe. To force those folks to drive an hour in traffic when people get off work both ways is a joke.

NFL will always sellout, NBA is the darlings of the valley, MLB will always struggle IMO, and the Coyotes will gain steam. I can see us creeping up over 85-90% in attendance this year with ownership. 100% will come in the next few years with Season holders.

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01-30-2013, 11:13 AM
  #681
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That's awesome
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01-30-2013, 11:18 AM
  #682
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Too many conspiracy theories there Troy, just not enough hockey fans in Phoenix, or those willing to pay NHL prices for Coyotes tickets, I mean 2 free kids tickets with purchase of ticket or $25 for any seat with college ID, who does that Troy, teams in A ball that's who, not PRO sports!

PS What Bettman has left is to tell the COG is that he will cash in the last $25 million cheque that they handed him back in 2011, without an extension of the deadline the team is toast, except we all know the team is toast and Bettman is only hoping to minimize the NHL's losses by encouraging ticket sale to the end of the season.
Was there ever any question whether that 25mil. was going to be "cashed in" or not? I don't expect that's much of a carrot to dangle, is it? It's not like there is hope of COG getting that back, is there?

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01-30-2013, 11:21 AM
  #683
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Originally Posted by Hawker14 View Post
Personally I think this January 31 deadline is kind of a joke.

It's not the NHL's, and this is all that really matters imo. This story shall live to see another day, two weeks, until the spring, whatever. Still could be years.

As long as the COG keeps coughing up $25m/yr I just don't see Bettman closing this file.
Plus, this new council will probably be bamboozled too.
The COG hasn't agreed to cough up anything for this season.

They coughed up $25 million two seasons ago. $20 million for last season, that as far as any credible sources have said, has yet to be claimed by the NHL. Plus they were suppsoed to contribute an additional $5 million at the closing of the last season which they have not done.

There is no ongoing $25 million commitment from the city.

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01-30-2013, 11:26 AM
  #684
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You do realize that this is part of the reason the Coyotes have bled red ink for the past 16 years.

The majority of jobing.com is priced $50.00 or less for STH. Those ticket prices would be difficult to sustain the franchise if the building was FULL every night.
False. Nothing downstairs is less than $50. They did run a promotion for STH you could add on for $35 in the corners down low.

STH prices for upper is $18 per and $30 for the center sections. $50-75 for most of the lower excluding Toyota club and glass which is about 6 rows and those prices are well over $100.

Momentum was thwarted with Gretzky and Moyes.Passionate fans were at America West Arena (now US Airways) but they had 3500 obstructed seats. Once out in Glendale (Mistake location although I moved to Surprise for teen so it works for me) Moyes and foreclosures nearly killed the Coyotes. Things are stabilizing and tonight will be the first step in getting that locomotive on the tracks. Shane Doan would NOT of re-seigned if not for Jamison's assurance he would close this deal.

So what are we talkin aboot? QC getting a team, eh? I hope so. MOST of you are good people. Some are very bitter. We/I didnt do anything to you.

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01-30-2013, 11:27 AM
  #685
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Originally Posted by howlinhockey View Post
I can see us creeping up over 85-90% in attendance this year with ownership. 100% will come in the next few years with Season holders.
When you make a claim in the real world, you back it up with some form of evidence or, failing that, a track record of correct forecasting. If you repeatedly make baseless claims, prepare to surrender your credibility and be seen as a zealot or a rube. That's how it works. Throwing out ethnic/nationalistic stereotypes in misguided attempts at humour is also not particularly helpful if your aim is to be taken seriously by intelligent people. If there's anything in the history of the Phoenix Coyotes that you believe indicates there's a reasonable chance of the franchise being profitable and stable, do present it.

"The market can work, it's just never been properly managed!" is the same species of invalid and emotional argument as those sometimes made by Canadians about team relocation in the 90s during an extremely poor economic situation. They're both things that really don't belong in a forum called "The Business of Hockey," as I see it. Nobody could stay afloat owning teams in Winnipeg or Québec in the mid 90s, and it's not much of a stretch to say that nobody can stay afloat owning a team in Phoenix now. If market research supported the existence of the Coyotes as an entity not being funded by the league, a legitimate owner that doesn't need considerable public assistance most likely would've emerged before now.

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01-30-2013, 11:31 AM
  #686
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Also the new mayor is not some radical. He isn't going to make some public spectacle of "killing" this deal. He's going to maintain throughout that he's willing to negotiate a sensible deal and if/when the team skips town, he'll maintain emphatically that the NHL/Jamison were never really willing to negotiate with the new council in good faith and had no interest in anything beyond demanding three hundred plus million bucks. He'll take the stance of a man unwilling to negotiate with terrorists or to pay ransom without proof of life. Defending COG from evil big business salivating over public funding. A true hero, who would've done anything to keep the hockey team. Anything short of bankrupting the city. Of course, we'll know that it's 50-95% B.S. (depending on where your feelings about relocation lay).

Similarly, JIG/NHL will maintain that they did their absolute best but the new council/mayor were completely unwilling to honor what had been agreed on previously and unwilling to work within a framework of a deal even in that same stratosphere. That THEY failed to negotiate in good faith, and made their position clear. The NHL/JIG will maintain that they had done everything humanly possible but the COG was unwilling to work it out. Of course we will all know this is 50-95% B.S. (depending on where your feelings lay on NHL hockey in Glendale).

One of two things is happening this week:

1. Greg Jamison is finally buying the Coyotes
2. Both sides are setting the table for the FINAL finger pointing session

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01-30-2013, 11:32 AM
  #687
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Howling, Really the attendance makes little difference.

Many here think a move is needed because Glendale shouldn't have to pay $15M a year for the team to stay. You are in Surprise, so that doesn't affect you. It's not a matter of "who deserves a team." Fan bases could argue that forever. But, no small city can afford to build an arena and then pay those kinds of millions every year, too.

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01-30-2013, 11:40 AM
  #688
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Also the new mayor is not some radical. He isn't going to make some public spectacle of "killing" this deal. He's going to maintain throughout that he's willing to negotiate a sensible deal and if/when the team skips town, he'll maintain emphatically that the NHL/Jamison were never really willing to negotiate with the new council in good faith and had no interest in anything beyond demanding three hundred plus million bucks. He'll take the stance of a man unwilling to negotiate with terrorists or to pay ransom without proof of life. Defending COG from evil big business salivating over public funding. A true hero, who would've done anything to keep the hockey team. Anything short of bankrupting the city. Of course, we'll know that it's 50-95% B.S. (depending on where your feelings about relocation lay).

Similarly, JIG/NHL will maintain that they did their absolute best but the new council/mayor were completely unwilling to honor what had been agreed on previously and unwilling to work within a framework of a deal even in that same stratosphere. That THEY failed to negotiate in good faith, and made their position clear. The NHL/JIG will maintain that they had done everything humanly possible but the COG was unwilling to work it out. Of course we will all know this is 50-95% B.S. (depending on where your feelings lay on NHL hockey in Glendale).

One of two things is happening this week:

1. Greg Jamison is finally buying the Coyotes
2. Both sides are setting the table for the FINAL finger pointing session
The above is 100% correct. I would imagine that the NHL would have preferred a "later deadline".

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01-30-2013, 11:41 AM
  #689
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False. Nothing downstairs is less than $50. They did run a promotion for STH you could add on for $35 in the corners down low.

STH prices for upper is $18 per and $30 for the center sections. $50-75 for most of the lower excluding Toyota club and glass which is about 6 rows and those prices are well over $100.

Momentum was thwarted with Gretzky and Moyes.Passionate fans were at America West Arena (now US Airways) but they had 3500 obstructed seats. Once out in Glendale (Mistake location although I moved to Surprise for teen so it works for me) Moyes and foreclosures nearly killed the Coyotes. Things are stabilizing and tonight will be the first step in getting that locomotive on the tracks. Shane Doan would NOT of re-seigned if not for Jamison's assurance he would close this deal.

So what are we talkin aboot? QC getting a team, eh? I hope so. MOST of you are good people. Some are very bitter. We/I didnt do anything to you.
Correct. The majority of the lowerbowl is priced at exactly $50.00 for STH. Thanks for clarifying it

http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=82123

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01-30-2013, 11:54 AM
  #690
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Went and read a blog... not one fact is stated... all it is are the hopes of one person. Too bad there weren't 20,000 other people that feel strongly about this team.

Enough said.

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01-30-2013, 11:56 AM
  #691
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Howling, Really the attendance makes little difference.

Many here think a move is needed because Glendale shouldn't have to pay $15M a year for the team to stay. You are in Surprise, so that doesn't affect you. It's not a matter of "who deserves a team." Fan bases could argue that forever. But, no small city can afford to build an arena and then pay those kinds of millions every year, too.
Wrong again. Glendale will pay over 6 million a year for an empty arena. Westgate will be crushed by losing it's anchor tenant. Glendale can claim they lose 15 million a year but that figure does NOT include taxes gained and tenants brought at Westgate. IMO Glendale is all in with the Coyotes, Westgate, and it's spring training home at Camelback.Pulling out cannot be an option or too much will be lost. Glendale being a small city is of little concern. It is surrounded by Phoenix, Peoria, Avondale, Surprise, Sun City, and Goodyear. A casino is being built by the Tohono O'odham Nation nearby as well as the new Tanger Outlets.


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01-30-2013, 12:01 PM
  #692
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Went and read a blog... not one fact is stated... all it is are the hopes of one person. Too bad there weren't 20,000 other people that feel strongly about this team.

Enough said.
Well thanks but we only hold 17,125 in the Arena. Sadly even if we sell out EVERY game it still ranks us 25th in the league. We did have a 8pm WED game that didnt help our numbers. But after the Mon game and only 8500 we fell below 13k fans. Like I said 4k needs to be made up with STHs not walk up mid weekers.

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01-30-2013, 12:02 PM
  #693
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In summary, a tiny city in Arizona has an agreement to subsidize the future business operations of an NHL franchise to the tune of $300 plus million, an agreement which expires tomorrow. This agreement is also contingent however upon whether or not the prospective owner can secure financing; LeBrun has essentially stated to RDS that he believes the prospective owner has not been able to gather the required cash.

This is going to get real ugly soon. It can't end well unless the NHL facilitates the financing of JEG's bid.

The only plausible other end game I can envision now is that someone behind the scenes has either already (or will soon promise) to cover the franchise's operational losses beginning tomorrow in exchange for financial (price) and other future (relocation) consideration beginning at season end. Hopefully Glendale will figure out a way to covert the arena into a performance venue for a new casino.

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01-30-2013, 12:03 PM
  #694
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Wrong again. Glendale will pay over 6 million a year for an empty arena. Westgate will be crushed by losing it's anchor tenant. Glendale can claim they lose 15 million a year but that figure does NOT include taxes gained and tenants brought at Westgate. IMO Glendale is all in with the Coyotes, Westgate, and it's spring training home at Camelback.Pulling out cannot be an option or too much will be lost. Glendale being a small city is of little concern. It is surrounded by Phoenix, Peoria, Avondale, Surprise, Sun City, and Goodyear. A casino is being built by the Tohono O'odham Nation nearby as well as the new Tanger Outlets.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater
AMG is making profits with KC arena with no hockey team. Thats the path to follow.

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01-30-2013, 12:03 PM
  #695
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Many here think a move is needed because Glendale shouldn't have to pay $15M a year for the team to stay. . . It's not a matter of "who deserves a team." Fan bases could argue that forever. But, no small city can afford to build an arena and then pay those kinds of millions every year, too.
Maybe a little understanding for the exhuberance of Phoenix fans who want to keep their team and Quebec fans who want to get one would make the discussion go a little smoother. I understand both, but for me it comes down to what MNNumbers says. The city just can't afford it. They're beyond where it hurts to come up with the money; the money just doesn't exist. It's madness for governments (and individuals) to keep running up unpayble debts and think someone else will pay them off. It just doesn't work in the real world. Sorry for Phoenix fans who face losing something they love, but that's the reality.

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01-30-2013, 12:07 PM
  #696
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IMO the pricing matrix makes no sense. The 2 sections to ea side of the center sections should be in between that of the end seating and center. Center at $85 is good and gets club access. Which is nothing because u still have to pay. The 8 sections surrounding center should be about $65 for being straight on seating. Now the end seating from 104-108 and 115-119 should be $35-40 as those are always the empty eye sores. It almost makes no sense to have them the same price as straight on views. Then you have the suites, No owner to drive them buy getting fans and local business to frequent them. There is the missing 4k fans in a nut shell. Just some tweaking. Not a major re-invention.

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01-30-2013, 12:08 PM
  #697
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AMG is making profits with KC arena with no hockey team. Thats the path to follow.
Will not work in Phoenix. Way too many concert venues, and in better locations (US Airway arena), GCU arena, ASU Wells Fargo arena, Cricket pavillion, and on and on and on. Westgate and the Job need an anchor tenant or the arena is a losing proposition going forward, and Westgate will have major problems.

Note, that has nothing to do with whether the Coyotes should stay in Glendale. That decision appears to be left in the hands of Mr. GJ, who has slightly more than 24 hours to deliever...or not.

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01-30-2013, 12:11 PM
  #698
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Wrong again. Glendale will pay over 6 million a year for an empty arena. Westgate will be crushed by losing it's anchor tenant. Glendale can claim they lose 15 million a year but that figure does NOT include taxes gained and tenants brought at Westgate. IMO Glendale is all in with the Coyotes, Westgate, and it's spring training home at Camelback.Pulling out cannot be an option or too much will be lost. Glendale being a small city is of little concern. It is surrounded by Phoenix, Peoria, Avondale, Surprise, Sun City, and Goodyear. A casino is being built by the Tohono O'odham Nation nearby as well as the new Tanger Outlets.
Based on what facts?

You have had some outrageous claims made these past few pages that I just frivolously went through.... Lucky me...

Where is your facts backing up that it will cost the city over $6M to operate? By my recollection the acting city manager stated it would cost "about $6M" per year to operate without a team, IE Foot into mouth.

I highly highly doubt that Glendale makes over $15M per year on taxes as a direct result of the Coyotes. In fact the latest reports show this number in the $2-3M range.... Hardly worth spending $15M per year (on the low end).

What does Westgate do for the other 5-6 months of the year when the Coyotes aren't playing? Further to this how did they ever survive when the lockout was on? The Coyotes don't have as much impact as you think they do. Your sources are the few bar owners calling foul that is all.

You want to keep Westgate afloat? Give them $10M per year, that will help the center thrive much more than the Coyotes do.

[mod]

My guess is you are a Phoenix resident aren't you? IE not actually paying for the large subsidy.

FWIW if you want to be taken seriously around here you need to stop with the Joyce blinders "EVIL CANADIAN's and CANADIAN MEDIA" we aren't the problem. The problem is your economy and lack of fan support, this won't magically correct itself in 5 years. In fact by giving out $320M over 20 years the CoG is only further hurting their dismal economy instead of trying to boost it.

People will lose their jobs so millionaires can keep making millions. Great idea.

No one likes losing a beloved hockey team, we lived through it in 95-96 and you will too. Once the economy bounces back maybe there is another opportunity down the road, but for a teal to continuously hemorrhage money and rely on the NHL for financial supper (rev sharing), that only hurts the league and the end consumers keeping the prices high in markets that actually make money (your welcome by the way).


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 01-30-2013 at 01:13 PM. Reason: flaming
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01-30-2013, 12:14 PM
  #699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howlinhockey View Post
Wrong again. Glendale will pay over 6 million a year for an empty arena. Westgate will be crushed by losing it's anchor tenant. Glendale can claim they lose 15 million a year but that figure does NOT include taxes gained and tenants brought at Westgate. IMO Glendale is all in with the Coyotes, Westgate, and it's spring training home at Camelback.Pulling out cannot be an option or too much will be lost. Glendale being a small city is of little concern. It is surrounded by Phoenix, Peoria, Avondale, Surprise, Sun City, and Goodyear. A casino is being built by the Tohono O'odham Nation nearby as well as the new Tanger Outlets.
- paying $6MM empty is $9MM ahead of with a team
- Westgate closes between April and September then without hockey?
- If you care to wade through the previous 68 threads there is extensive discussion of the incremental amount of tax revenue the Yotes bring in (hint: it's no where near $15MM (or $9MM for that matter))
- Pulling out may be the CoG's only viable option, I'm kinda agnostic on it, but that's up to their financial prognosticators to figure out (I'm looking at TL Hocking right now)

Anywho, have fun getting up to speed on these affairs, I'm afraid it looks like your depth of knowledge is pretty shallow at the moment.

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The new Logan v2013!
Aww, the little guy grew up.... And is still a fan, that's so cute!

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01-30-2013, 12:18 PM
  #700
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For those interested, the locals down here are taking a wait and see approach until the close of business Thursday. Even hardcore fans have just gotten tired of the mess. Casual or fring fans have written this team off until something resolves with ownership. Assuming this doesn't close by tomorrow, I think that all but the most delusional fans will agree that the plug is going to be pulled this year. I do not expect it to be pretty unless the Coyotes get on a roll like last year. Final attendance numbers could fall below 10,000.

It really is tough on the organization to labor under this cloud for so long. Hockey just isn't a tier 1 sport in the Valley, and those that may be interested in becoming fans are really put off by the uncertainty. That is why the team can sell out for playoffs, but fall back down to earth with games that have an attendance of 8,500.

For those of you out of town that don't believe the ownership uncertainty should have any significant effect on the attendance, I can see your point. In Canada, the fans would rally in support of the team. But down here the fact is I do think it is the main reason why attendance is lagging even after a Western Conference Finals appearance. If GJ had closed over the summer, even with the lockout, I wouldn't be surprised if the STH base had increase by another 2,500, and most of these games would be at or around 90% capacity.

QC, you may have cause to party in the streets (if its not too cold) starting Feb. 1st.

Cheers

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