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Leafs WIN! - 4-3 Frattin with a thriller!

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01-30-2013, 11:08 AM
  #501
ACC1224
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Originally Posted by CBinTokyo View Post
I actually just want to learn
1st thing you'll need to learn is who to ask opinions of and who to ignore.

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01-30-2013, 11:09 AM
  #502
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So? That says Mats is a better player.

What I am saying is everyone has to chill out because even Mats Sundin, (who carried us for most of a decade) has started WORSE then Phil Kessel.

Kessel has been around the net, and has been close. Once he gets one, they will pour in and everyone will be back on the bandwagon.
It's not a strong point. When Sundin wasn't producing offensively, he was doing everything else one could ask of him. Sundin having no points in X number of games is not like Kessel having no goals in x number of games. That was my point.

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01-30-2013, 11:10 AM
  #503
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When Kessel's line is getting hemmed in their own zone for 20+ seconds at a time, focus on Kessel. You will notice that he floats around in the middle of nowhere. He is at least 10 feet from any opposing player. He is quite literally waiting for the puck to come to him. When you start looking for it, it's incredibly obvious.
Thanks I will watch for that.

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01-30-2013, 11:11 AM
  #504
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1st thing you'll need to learn is who to ask opinions of and who to ignore.
Hah! That I have enough experience in to figure out for myself

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01-30-2013, 11:13 AM
  #505
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Can you elaborate as to why you think that way? Again this is solely to educate myself. I do not have the experience you have.

I see him as trying, and having some success, to adapting to a new system. I see him giving everything, and I see him having a solid knowledge of the arena in which he competes. My thinking is that he can adapt....having said that I am the first to acknowledge that my opinion is based on far less experience than someone who has played the game for 40 years, and would appreciate what makes you think otherwise.
Well lets put it this way, i see players trying all the time to score goals but few succeed at this well.

Phil lacks the will/grit to get in the dirty areas of the ice to be an effective 2 way player.

Is it fear?

Is it him conserving energy/positioning for when/if a O situation opens up?

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01-30-2013, 11:14 AM
  #506
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Short summary

The Obvious- Frattin and Kadri the good, DRAFT-DEVELOP-PROMOTE - My Slogan that I will keep repeating here.

Observations, Grabo's line was on the ice in the last minutes of the game and again the opposition (Sabres) almost scored to win the game before the end of regulation. This line is dangerously bad at key points of the game. Lucky to escape.

Kessel looks out of shape and gassed, what a change from last year, Bozak looks like he is being dragged down with him. Not a bad game by both but not a standout game by any of JVR/Kessel/Bozie

Mcclement was good.

Synopsis-Again going to cite the Boston model, difficult decisions will have to be made on key personnel, with Kadri looking every bit ready for a bigger role on the team, Nonis can entertain a change of the guard on the roster. There are more Frattin's pushing for jobs on the Marlies, Draft/Develop/Promote. The more emphasis on this, the better this team will be in the near future.
Kadri and Frattin are on a point per game pace, all be it a small sample size. Both are proving not only they belong, but deserving of more ice time. Forget this stuff about Kessel-Bozak being top line at the moment. Maybe if Kessel is played less will have more energy whe he does. Kadri and Frattin have warranted playing more.

VERY impressed with McClement so far this season. Looks like he is wasted on the 4th line. Better player and better skater than I thought. I think he is an upgrade on McAarthur.

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01-30-2013, 11:15 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
It's not a strong point. When Sundin wasn't producing offensively, he was doing everything else one could ask of him. Sundin having no points in X number of games is not like Kessel having no goals in x number of games. That was my point.
Okay, but Sundin is a 2 way player. You can't expect that from Kessel. Sundin, went pointless, but was still doing the other part of his game. Kessel, is goalless, but is still creating chances.

Kessel is an Elite Offensive Talent. His job is to score goals, and create opportunities offensively.

He has been around the net ALOT. He is a bit snakebitten.

If he had been invisible and had no points, and was no where near the net, then sure. But for now, let's not worry about our star player who finished top 10 in league scoring last year, and maybe worry about a real problem.

Kessel will score 1, and then the rest will follow. Everyone needs to calm their ****. 5 games is nothing to worry about

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01-30-2013, 11:18 AM
  #508
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Well lets put it this way, i see players trying all the time to score goals but few succeed at this well.

Phil lacks the will/grit to get in the dirty areas of the ice to be an effective 2 way player.

Is it fear?

Is it him conserving energy/positioning for when/if a O situation opens up?
What conserving energy hell lets let him stand at the opposition blue line so that he will remain fresh......he can do that fine from the bench.....it is pure fear....watch him pull the chute at every opportunity....It is painful to watch.

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01-30-2013, 11:18 AM
  #509
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Okay, but Sundin is a 2 way player. You can't expect that from Kessel. Sundin, went pointless, but was still doing the other part of his game. Kessel, is goalless, but is still creating chances.

Kessel is an Elite Offensive Talent. His job is to score goals, and create opportunities offensively.

He has been around the net ALOT. He is a bit snakebitten.

If he had been invisible and had no points, and was no where near the net, then sure. But for now, let's not worry about our star player who finished top 10 in league scoring last year, and maybe worry about a real problem.

Kessel will score 1, and then the rest will follow. Everyone needs to calm their ****. 5 games is nothing to worry about
Everyone?? Seems there is only one fan worried.

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01-30-2013, 11:20 AM
  #510
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Okay, but Sundin is a 2 way player. You can't expect that from Kessel. Sundin, went pointless, but was still doing the other part of his game. Kessel, is goalless, but is still creating chances.

Kessel is an Elite Offensive Talent. His job is to score goals, and create opportunities offensively.

He has been around the net ALOT. He is a bit snakebitten.

If he had been invisible and had no points, and was no where near the net, then sure. But for now, let's not worry about our star player who finished top 10 in league scoring last year, and maybe worry about a real problem.

Kessel will score 1, and then the rest will follow. Everyone needs to calm their ****. 5 games is nothing to worry about
I would not be all to sure about that.

Ovi,Semin,Green did not adapt to hunters system in Wash.

What does Phil have since Carl got here 2 even strength goal and 7 even strength assists?


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01-30-2013, 11:22 AM
  #511
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Everyone?? Seems there is only one fan worried.
Everyone in the sense of "everyone who is ******** their beds over Kessel".

I also laugh at people who say we should trade Kessel to teams for a good prospect and a 1st round pick which will end up being a late round pick lol

Hey! Let's trade our 24 year old sniper who is already finishing Top 10 in league scoring, for a prospect, who may become something, but like a 2nd liner at best, and a pick, that likely won't become much.

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01-30-2013, 11:24 AM
  #512
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If Kessel had more finish this year, his teammates would easily have a few more assists as well.

Kessel has missed more prime scoring opportunities than anybody else on the team. He doesnt get credit for just getting those chances if his linemates dont.
He SHOULD miss more prime scoring opportunities than anyone else the team! That's his job - taking the prime scoring opportunities. Do you know who had the most shots on net on the team last year? Take a wild guess. 30% more shots on net than the next guy. Do you know who else misses more prime scoring opportunities than anyone else on the team? Every top scorer in the league.

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01-30-2013, 11:24 AM
  #513
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Mats was also extremely hard to play against in all three zones and carried mediocre teams to the playoffs. He was +99 in his career for the Leafs, and that was with a lot of his offensive production coming on the PP.
Sundin was heavily criticized for MANY years here in Toronto. I remember telling a friend that when Sundin retired we would realize how much he has meant to our team and it's true. Its interesting that he has reached god like status here in leaf land, but it certainly wasnt looked upon like that for majority of his time in Toronto.

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01-30-2013, 11:27 AM
  #514
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Sundin was heavily criticized for MANY years here in Toronto. I remember telling a friend that when Sundin retired we would realize how much he has meant to our team and it's true. Its interesting that he has reached god like status here in leaf land, but it certainly wasnt looked upon like that for majority of his time in Toronto.
I only recall Sundin being criticized towards the very end of his career in Toronto, when he decided not to waive his no-trade clause.

If people were criticizing his actual play, I don't really know what to say.

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01-30-2013, 11:29 AM
  #515
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He SHOULD miss more prime scoring opportunities than anyone else the team! That's his job - taking the prime scoring opportunities. Do you know who had the most shots on net on the team last year? Take a wild guess. 30% more shots on net than the next guy. Do you know who else misses more prime scoring opportunities than anyone else on the team? Every top scorer in the league.
Talking about this year, bud, and specifically in response to people giving Kessel a pass because he's "getting chances" while criticizing his linemates for not finishing every pass Kessel gets to them. "If his linemates were scoring more he'd have more assists."

Last night Kessel whiffed on a wide open net when it was 3-2 for the Leafs. And someone actually defended him by saying the pass should have been harder.

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01-30-2013, 11:30 AM
  #516
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The more I watch this season, the more I think that Kessel is not the guy we want to build around because of his lack of commitment, cement blocks attached to his skates when he doesn't have the puck and that he has litterally zero chemistry with anyone else on the ice. Most of you will argue that he had Chemistry with Lupul which is true but also past tense and doesn't seem to helping him this season. I want to see him succeed and score goals but ONLY when he's doing that is he a benefit to this team and that to me is a major cause for concern.

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01-30-2013, 11:32 AM
  #517
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You think Phaneuf did bad last game?
Bad no - he was Adequate. When you're star 6.5M D-Man is just adequate and thats considered a victory something is wrong.

When you star 6M 40 goal scorer has 2 even strength goals in his last 24 games - 5 in total - and people champion the fact that he can hardly skate off the ice after a shift because he's so gassed - something is seriously wrong.

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01-30-2013, 11:33 AM
  #518
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I only recall Sundin being criticized towards the very end of his career in Toronto, when he decided not to waive his no-trade clause.

If people were criticizing his actual play, I don't really know what to say.
I remember Sundin being criticized a lot before 03/04 (95 - 03) especially around playoff time. I remember fans questioning his injuries one playoff run , while other guys like roberts, mogilny and tucker were playing with broken bones. Sundin's heart was questioned a lot. Post lockout... I find a waive of new leaf fans/generation emerged and Sundin is all we basically had to worship--and he emerged. And yes Sundin totally carried us from 04 until his last game as a Leaf....no doubt. When the going got tough we all looked towards Mats...

but before 03... when the going got tough...I remember leaf fans getting on Sundin, a ton.

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01-30-2013, 11:34 AM
  #519
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Sundin was heavily criticized for MANY years here in Toronto. I remember telling a friend that when Sundin retired we would realize how much he has meant to our team and it's true. Its interesting that he has reached god like status here in leaf land, but it certainly wasnt looked upon like that for majority of his time in Toronto.
Just posted about this and I totally agree with you.

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01-30-2013, 11:34 AM
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What conserving energy hell lets let him stand at the opposition blue line so that he will remain fresh......he can do that fine from the bench.....it is pure fear....watch him pull the chute at every opportunity....It is painful to watch.
I'm small and i can tell you, board work is exhausting and it does work against the positioning needed for him to take full advantage of his skill set..

I'm not defending Phil.

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01-30-2013, 11:36 AM
  #521
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Talking about this year, bud, and specifically in response to people giving Kessel a pass because he's "getting chances" while criticizing his linemates for not finishing every pass Kessel gets to them.

Last night Kessel whiffed on a wide open net when it was 3-2 for the Leafs. And someone actually defended him by saying the pass should have been harder.
I'm talking about this year too. And next year, and the year after that. Top scorers will ALWAYS miss more shots than anyone else on the team. It means they are taking shots instead of dishing it off to plugs.

He's a streaky scorer (like many goal scorers are). Get over it. He's playing fine. What will it take for you to get off his back? A 2 goal game? A hat-trick?

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01-30-2013, 11:37 AM
  #522
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Everyone in the sense of "everyone who is ******** their beds over Kessel".

I also laugh at people who say we should trade Kessel to teams for a good prospect and a 1st round pick which will end up being a late round pick lol

Hey! Let's trade our 24 year old sniper who is already finishing Top 10 in league scoring, for a prospect, who may become something, but like a 2nd liner at best, and a pick, that likely won't become much.
The issue around trading Kessel is his.....he has shown in the past to over value himself and with his contract going to a limited NTC/NMC one next season, considering trading him is very reasonable and prudent. Nonis should have no doubt that he will be able to sign him to a reasonable contract prior to the end of this season or consider looking for a trading partner. Letting him go for nothing or very little is not an option.

Do you really think he is a player that will finish in the top 10 in league scoring again on a consistent basis? He played for the most offensive coach in the league under very little expectation to play away from the puck and he had a great season. Since Carlyle has arrived he has not produced as much.....I'm not saying that he will only continue to produce at the current level....but I do not see him as a point a game player under Carlyle....or any coach who demands players participate in all parts of the game.

Remember Kessel requested a trade away from a very similar coach and from a quality team because of their expectations and his salary demands we currently are not a quality team .....history has a way of repeating its self.

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01-30-2013, 11:39 AM
  #523
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I only recall Sundin being criticized towards the very end of his career in Toronto, when he decided not to waive his no-trade clause.

If people were criticizing his actual play, I don't really know what to say.
OH ya sundin got some serious heat when he started out here.

Part of it was because we traded Clark for him and what that meant in this city.

Wendel was in god mode here, Ala, Dougie Gilmour.

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01-30-2013, 11:44 AM
  #524
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I'm talking about this year too. And next year, and the year after that. Top scorers will ALWAYS miss more shots than anyone else on the team. It means they are taking shots instead of dishing it off to plugs.

He's a streaky scorer (like many goal scorers are). Get over it. He's playing fine. What will it take for you to get off his back? A 2 goal game? A hat-trick?
A back-check? A won puck-battle on the boards? It wouldn't matter if Phil wasn't scoring if he was making up for it in other ways. And that applies to next year, and the year after that.

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01-30-2013, 11:46 AM
  #525
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A back-check? A won puck-battle on the boards? It wouldn't matter if Phil wasn't scoring if he was making up for it in other ways. And that applies to next year, and the year after that.
It does happen if you look for it.

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